65. Captain A. EVANSasked the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the ease of a man convicted of stealing dogs for the purpose of selling them to the University College School of Physiofogy; what action the college authorities take in order to see that stolen animals are not bought; what are the nature of the experiments carried on by this college; and what steps are taken to see that unnecessary cruelty is not practised.
§ 70. Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a case of dog stealing in London, and to the remarks of the magistrate with respect to receiving; whether the police have investigated the procedure under which these animals are collected and disposed of to medical schools; and whether he will consider legislation compelling institutions thus purchasing dogs to keep an inventory of acquisitions, with the prices and names of all vendors, such inventory to be open to police inspection?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSI have seen a Press report of the case in question. The college authorities have since 'stated publicly that their procedure is to buy the animals when required from a general dealer in animals and animals food, and to require from him a written guarantee that all the animals so purchased were legitimately obtained. The experiments carried on at the college are for the purpose of medical and scientific research, and are subject to the conditions and restrictions laid down by the Act 30 and 40 Vic. cap. 77. The laboratory is inspected at frequent. intervals by the inspectors appointed under that Act.
Captain EVANSis it not reasonable to expect that a man who is in the habit of purchasing dogs might easily recognise a valuable dog from an invaluable dog and, further in view of the fact that the price paid was not the market value, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that he should consider instituting proceedings in this case?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSPerhaps the man was not such an expert in regard to valuable dogs as the hon. and gallant Member.
§ Dr. SALTERMay I ask the Home Secretary whether he is aware that 408 50,000 stray dogs are Liken charge of by the police, under his Department, every year, and subsequently destroyed, and whether he will make arrangements for allocating some of these animals for scientific purposes?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSThat is a much larger question. I do not think it is desirable at present that the police should enter into arrangements of this kind.
§ Sir C. CAYZERIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the vendor concerned in this ease had already been convicted on more than one occasion for dog stealing, and can he say what precautions were taken to find oil t the character of the vendor?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSIt is true that the man had been previously convicted, but I have no evidence that the college authorities had any knowledge of that fact.
§ Sir C. CAYZERDid they take any-precaution to find out?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSWe are all so innocent looking that it is difficult to say by looking at a man whether he is a dog stealer or riot.
§ Mr. HAYESIs there not considerable difficulty in taking proceedings against anyone who has stolen a dog that is not valuable, as there is no process against an individual for stealing a clog which is not valuable. Will the right hon. Gentleman make sonic arrangements whereby protection can be given to a dog lover who owns a less marketable dog, whereas proceedings can be taken against the stealer of a valuable dot? I want to see protection given to the owner of an invaluable dog.
§ Mr. MORRISIn view of the comments of the learned st[...]pendary magistrate during the trial, can the Home Secretary say why no proceedings were taken against the college authorities as receivers?
§ Sir W. DAVISONIs it not a fact that the authorities of University College have appointed a special committee to go into the whole matter, and that they are making fresh arrangements to secure that nothing of the kind shall occur again?
§ Colonel DAYWill the Home Secretary consider introducing legislation to make these dealers hold licences before they can sell dogs?
§ Mr. BROMLEYDo not the Government think that it is time to take some steps to prevent this horrible practice, carried on under the cloak of science?
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe must not debate the matter.
§ 67. Sir R. GOWERasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the comments made on the 20th instant by Mr. Fry, the stipendary magistrate at Bow Street Police Court, when sentencing Henry William Hewitt, who was, according to the police evidence, employed by the University College Hospital School of Physiofogy to supply animals for vivisectional experiments and against whom there was a previous conviction for dog stealing, for stealing and ill-treating certain dogs intended by him for sale to such School; and whether he will consider the desirability of causing an inquiry to be made into the methods by which dogs and other animals are obtained for the purpose of vivisectional experiments in physiological schools?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSYes, Sir; and I have received a communication from the responsible authorities of the School containing information as to the procedure adopted by them in the purchase of animals, which I understand was not before the magistrate when he dealt with the case. I see in the morning's papers that the college has appointed a committee to inquire into the matter. Apart from this case, no complaints have reached me, and at present I see no necessity for a general inquiry.
§ 68. Sir R. GOWERasked the Home Secretary whether ho will consider the desirability of introducing legislation making it obligatory for persons dealing in dogs, cats, and similar live animals to take out a licence for the purpose and to keep a record of how such animals have been obtained and to whom sold, and providing that these records shall be open to regular inspection?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSI do not think that legislation of the kind suggested would be practicable, and I see no reason to doubt that the provisions the ordinary law of larceny are sufficient to deal with thefts of animals.
§ Sir R. GOWERWill the Home Secretary further consider this matter with the view of providing that licences shall be taken out by persons dealing in dogs, cats, etc.?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSA long experience of this House has made me give careful consideration before I answer any question, and unless the hon. Member has any suggestion to make which will be of some value I see no reason for further investigations.
§ Mr. HARDIESeeing that we are now considering a Merchandise Marks Bill, cannot the Government provide for the marking of these dogs?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSThese are not imported dogs.