§ Mr. SPEAKERThe next Amendment I select is that in the name of the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Morris)—in page 6, line 19, at the beginning, to insert the word "wilfully."
§ Mr. HARRISI beg to move, in page 6, line 19, at the beginning, to insert the word "wilfully."
The life of the trader nowadays is not an easy one. There are so many Regulations, that he is never sure when he will come up against a police officer, because he is unconsciously committing a breach of the Regulations. There are so many articles likely to be affected, that I think the right hon. Gentleman wants to be careful that a man is not punished when he is unconsciously contravening an order under this Bill. I do not attach importance to the word "wilfully," if the right hon. Gentleman with his ingenuity, and the advantage of his advisers, can suggest a better ward. I do think, considering the enormous number of articles contained in the ordinary shop of the grocer, fruiterer, baker and butcher, it is very hard on the retailer to have this Sword of Damocles hanging aver his head, with the local authority or the appropriate Department coming clown on him at any moment because he quite unconsciously, through no fault of his own, fails to carry out the Regulations requiring that the country of origin should be displayed over the fruit, the meat, or the manufactured article, as the case may be. Therefore, I suggest, in order to keep our prisons empty, and not to give occupation to the Police Courts, we should make these requirements as reasonable as possible.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThere is nothing novel in the way of offences in
§ the Bill as it stands. We follow the precedent of all Merchandise Marks legislation, and particularly the precedent in the Act of 1887. It is clear that if this Amendment were carried, it would be impossible ever to get a conviction at all, because you would have to prove that the man had a guilty intent in committing the offence. The offence here is for contravening the specific conditions of Clause 1, or failing to comply with an Order. The moment that is done, an offence is committed, and it is only right that, the offence having been committed, it should be for the person charged to prove that he has acted in good faith. If he can prove that, he is safeguarded by a later Clause, but he, obviously, has committed the offence, and if you did what the hon. Gentleman suggests, you would never he able to get a conviction at all, because you would not be able to prove there was a guilty intent in the mind of the man. If this Bill is to he made a real instrument for its purpose, plainly we must follow the precedent of the Act of 1887.
§ Mr. R. RICHARDSONThere are other Acts, for instance, the Food Adulteration Act, under which you summon the person who is supplying the goods, and he is not guilty at all, as he is in the hands of someone else. The ordinary trader would he dependent on the bona fides of a wholesaler, and I think some guarantee ought to be given to protect a trader who may be dealing honestly with people, and whose credit is otherwise taken away.
Sir P. C UN LI FFE-L ISTERIf the hon. Member will look at Sub-section (5), he will see that that meets the point.
§ Question put. "That the word 'wilfully' be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 107; Noes, 266.
295| Division No. 485.] | AYES. | [6.58 p.m. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Cove, W. G. | Forrest, W. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Gardner, I. P. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Davits, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Gibbins, Joseph |
| Baker, Walter | Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Gillett, George M. |
| Barnes. A. | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Gosling, Harry |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Day. Colonel Harry | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) |
| Bromfield, William | Dennison, R. | Greenall. D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Bromley, I. | Duckworth, John | Groves, T. |
| Buchanan, G. | Duncan, C. | Grundy, T. W. |
| Charleton, H. G. | Dunnico, H. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) |
| Clowes, S. | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) |
| Connolly, M. | England, Colonel A. | Hardie, George D. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Naylor, T. E. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Oliver, George Harold | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Hayday, Arthur | Palin, John Henry | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Paling, W. | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Potts, John S. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Purcell, A. A. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee] | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Townend, A. E. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Riley, Ben | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Ritson, J. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Kelly, W. T. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Eiland) | Westwood, J. |
| Kennedy, T. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Whiteley, W. |
| Lawrence, Susan | Scrymgeour, E. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Lawson, John James | Scurr, John | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Lee, F. | Sexton, James | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Lindley, F. W. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Lowth, T. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Lunn, William | Sitch, Charles H. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| MacLaren, Andrew | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Windsor, Walter |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) | |
| MacNeill-Weir, L. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| March, S, | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Sir Robert Hutchison and Major |
| Montague, Frederick | Stamford, T. W. | Owen. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel | Clarry, Reginald George | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hanbury, C. |
| Albery, Irving James | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S | Cope. Major William | Hartington, Marguess of |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Harvey, G. (Lambeth. Kennington) |
| Apsley, Lord | Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Henderson, Capt. R R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Heneago, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Dalkeith, Earl of | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Dalziel, Sir Davison | Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) |
| Balniel, Lord | Davidson, J. (Hertf'd. Hemel Hempst'd) | Hills, Major John Waller |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Holt, Captain H. P. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Dawson, Sir Philip | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) |
| Bennett, A. J. | Drewe. C. | Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. |
| Berry, Sir George | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Bethel, A. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Ellis, R. G. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Eiveden, viscount | Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | lliffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Everard, W. Lindsay | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Falls, Sir Bertram G. | Kindersley, Major Guy M. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Fermoy, Lord | King, Captain Henry Douglas |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Fielden, E. B. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Finburgh, S. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon, George R. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Ford, Sir P. J. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks,Newb'y) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Loder, J. de V. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lord, Walter Greaves- |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Burman, J. B. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis'E. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Ganzoni, Sir John | Mecdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Gates, Percy | McLean, Major A |
| Caine, Gordon Hall | Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macmllian, Captain H. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Grace, John | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Cassels, J. D. | Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | MacRobert, Alexander M. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Malone, Major P. B. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.) | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Gtyn K. |
| Christie, J. A. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Meller, R. J. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Merriman, F. B. |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Rice, Sir Frederick | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Ropner, Major L. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. ft. (Ayr) | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Moore, Sir Newton J. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-col. J. T. C. | Rye, F. G. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Waddington, R. |
| Murchlson, C. K. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Sandon, Lord | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Savery, S. S. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W) | Wells, S. R. |
| Penny, Frederick George | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Shepperson, E. W. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Sinclair. Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Beifst) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Perring, Sir William George | Skelton, A. N. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C.) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Pielou, D. P. | Smithers, Waldron | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Pilditch. Sir Philip | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Power, Sir John Cecil | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton | Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Price, Major C. W. M. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Radford, E. A. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, statyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Rains. W. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Rawson, Sir Cooper | Streatfield, Captain S. R. | Yerburgh. Major Robert D. T. |
| Held, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | |
| Remer, J. R. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Remnant, Sir James | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. | Major Hennessy and Captain |
| Rentoul, G. S. | Templeton, W. P. | Bowyer. |
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 7, line 1, to leave out the words, "by a person being a wholesale dealer."
This is really a consequential Amendment. It seems reasonable that whoever sells wholesale, whether he be a wholesaler or not, if he has undertaken a, sale for re-export should have the benefit of being free under Sub-section (2).
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 7, line 21, to leave out the words "verbal description" and to insert instead thereof the words "means of any written matter."
I gave an undertaking that I would consider what is the most correct description and the right wording to express in Sub-section (2). I am advised that "by means of any written matter" is right.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 7, line 26, to leave out the words "guilty of an offence against the principal" and to insert instead thereof the words "deemed to have acted in contravention of an Order in Council made under this."
This is also a consequential Amendment. The House will remember that penalties under the principal Act were reduced for 296 offences under this Act. Consequently, this Amendment has to be made.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI beg to move, in page 7, line 29, to leave out the words "such Order in Council shall come into force," and to insert instead thereof the words "the draft of the Order is laid before Parliament."
This Amendment is to provide the date after which advertisements must comply with Sub-section (2). Under the Bill, as drafted, it would net be an offence to use advertisements which were in stock at the time the Order came into force, but, as the House will observe, an Order which is made in draft has to lie for 20 Parliamentary days, and cannot come into force until three months later. Obviously it would be unreasonable that a person should have all tills time in which to manufacture a large number of new advertisements wh-.ch he knew ought to be marked, but which would escape if they were manufactured during that time. He ought not to have a period of time within which he could manufacture new advertisements.
§ Mr. WEBBThere is no objection to the intention of the right hors. Gentleman, because there, is no desire to authorise people to prepare advertisements if they know that an Order in Council is going to be made. One would not want 297 to authorise people to prepare new advertisements which would not be in order when the Order comes into force. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has adequately considered the amount of Lime it, takes to make these advertisements? Usually we speak about putting an advertisement in a newspaper as a matter done instantly, or if it be a matter of printing, you think about the next day. Consequently, I should not object to the right hon. Gentleman's words if that was all that was requested. The advertisement must be made before the draft Order comes into force. That means, I submit, that the making of the advertisement must have been completed before. It is not that the Order for the making of the advertisement shall have been given before, because this word "advertise" covers not merely a printed advertisement in the morning newspapers; not merely a printed circular prepared and sent out by the firms concerned, but it covers also, let us say, those permanent advertisements in tin or enamelled iron, or whatever it is, at the railway station. It covers all sorts of quasi-permanent advertisements which take a long time to make and which have to be ordered and then prepared.
Surely the morality of the subject is this, that we do not want in any way any new advertisements to he begun to be made after this notice of the draft Order in Council has been issued. How about the advertisements on enamelled tin or something like that for which the order is given a month before, and which is still in process of being made, and which will not be completed until after a day or two or a week or two after the draft Order has been made? Is that man guilty of an offence because he places an order in the ordinary course of business for an advertisement to be made, and the making has not been completed in time for the draft Order? That may seem an exceptional case, but take for instance Christmas advertisements. The right hon. Gentleman is probably aware that those were ordered some time ago. The catalogue cannot be done over night. Surely he is not going to make it an offence for a man to use an advertisement if he had it ordered and it was begun long before the draft Order. He has quite rightly protected the enamel iron 298 things which we see on our railway stations. If they were made before the Order was made, it will not be an offence using them until they wear out. They will go on; they can be shown till they have to be renewed. You cannot make those makers forfeit the whole value. Is he going to say that the order for the permanent advertisement which was given before the draft Order was made, which might have been given before actually the Committee began to consider the matter at ail. Is he going to tell that man to lose the value of that advertisement, or is he going to make some equitable provision in regard to it? The statute is peremptory; he is guilty of an offence against the Order in Council. He may quite innocently have ordered some advertisement to be made, the making of which could not he completed by the time the draft Order is laid. It is not my business to save the right hon. Gentleman from making his Act more unfair and more troublesome and expensive to the industry of this country than we assert that it will be. It is not my business to save him from an administrative blunder of this kind. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider between now and the time when the Bill reaches another place some method of meeting the case of firms who have given orders for advertisements but those advertisements are not made until after the draft Order is published?
Captain BENNWe are creating a new offence for which we can be punished. What is the meaning of the word "advertisement"? For example, there is a very large trade Press in this country, and it deals with very phase of retail and wholesale trade. Advertisements are published in these papers, are printed and paid for and sometimes illustrated. There is also a great deal of editorial matter in the nature of advertisements. The editor or someone else will write an article or paragraph describing the merits of some particular goods. That is undoubtedly in the nature of advertisement. Suppose that the writer describes some article but does not insert the necessary formula as required by the Order. Will he be punishable for having contravened the rule that the advertisement must contain the words ordered by the Committee? It is a question to which I would be glad to have an answer, because it would be 299 a very serious thing indeed if there were imposed on anyone who wrote about a trade article by way of advertisement, an obligation to be familiar with the Order in Council and to comply with it.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat question does not arise at present, because this Amendment deals only with the time.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe four lines which we are discussing refer to advertising a particular brand, or goods of a particular make. Therefore the proposal is very limited. All that we say is, that if an Order is made that the goods must be marked, and then a person advertises a particular brand of goods, whether by means of an illustration or by means of any written matter, specifying the precise article—it might be Michelin tyres—the advertisement must contain an indication that the goods are "foreign" or "Empire." All that has to be done is that on the advertisement there is to appear the word "foreign." I do not think there would be the least difficulty in the case where, as the right hon. Gentleman said, an enamelled sign is in course of construction and will not be completed for a fortnight. There would not be the least difficulty in putting the word "foreign" on the enamelled sign which is still going to take another fortnight to complete. The Report of the Committee has to be published, and everyone interested in the matter would have been first of all concerned with the inquiry, and would be au fait with everything that has happened in the trade. It is only after the Report of the Committee has been published that the appropriate Department is entitled to make an Order and to lay an Order. Therefore, there would have been ample notice, and if we did not fix, as a limit, the date of the laying of the draft Order, we really should he giving to everyone an opportunity, indeed would he inviting them, to get out a great many advertisements of different kinds without that indication of origin which the Order requires.
§ Mr. HARRISI hope that the House will not accept this Amendment. It is now quite clear how really ignorant the President of the Board of Trade is about the business and trade of the country. 300 He has gone out of his way to quote Michelin. He had not heard of enamelled signs. That is beyond the high-brow attitude of a typical Tory Minister. He is not interested in such mundane things. The enamelled sign is made by a very expensive process. I see below me the hon. Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), who, as an expert in trade, knows that enamelled signs are very expensive things to make and to affix. Very large contracts are made by advertising firms all over the country. Take the case of Michelin tyres. Michelin advertisements are all over the country, and the firm publishes a very useful and valuable guide. I do not believe that that guide cover is marked with the country of origin. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman thinks that a great crime. If you are to introduce into this country this novel kind of legislation, and if you require that every advertisement seen in the country should also be a lesson in geography for the citizen—
§ Mr. HARRISThe hon. and gallant Member says, "Hear, hear!" His motto is, "Hang the expense!" He does not care how much he pays for his patriotism. The proposal of the Minister might disorganise all the big contracts of firms that carry out this business, and then the right hon. Gentleman comes along and says, "Alter the sign." The result of this proposal would be to destroy all this valuable advertising matter. There is an article called the Ford car, and there are people who like it. The right hon. Gentleman probably thinks it is very unpatriotic to buy Ford cars. They are advertised all over the country by enamelled signs. Under this Bill they will have to bear in large letters. "Component parts manufactured in America." That will mean the destruction of the signs or the dragging of Mr. Ford, or Mr. Michelin, or other foreign people, before the police courts, because, forsooth, they have broken a law created through the ignorance of the President of the Board of Trade in matters of trade.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to he left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 106; Noes, 258.
303| Division No. 486.] | AYES. | [7.27 p.m. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Robinson, sir T. (Lancs., Stratford) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayday, Arthur | Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hayes, John Henry | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Baker, Walter | Hirst, G. H. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barnes, A. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Scurr, John |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Sexton, James |
| Bromfield, William | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Bromley, J. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Clowes, S. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Connolly, M. | Kennedy, T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cove, W. G. | Lansbury, George | Stephen, Campbell |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lawrence, Susan | Sullivan, J. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawson, John James | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lee, F. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lindley, F. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lowth, T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Dennison, R. | MacLaren, Andrew | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Duckworth, John | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Dunnico, H. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Westwood, J. |
| England, Colonel A. | March, S. | Whiteley, W. |
| Forrest, W. | Maxton, James | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Gardner, J. P. | Montague, Frederick | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gosling, Harry | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Owen, Major G. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Palin, John Henry | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Groves, T. | Paling, W. | Windsor, Walter |
| Grundy, T. W. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Potts, John S. | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Purcell, A. A. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. |
| Hardie, George D. | Riley, Ben | Henderson. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Ritson, J. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Fermoy, Lord |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Caine, Gordon Hall | Fielden, E. B. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Campbell, E. T. | Finburgh, S. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Cassels, J. D. | Ford, Sir P. J. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Foster, Sir Harry S. |
| Apsley, Lord | Chapman, Sir S. | Foxcroft, Captain C. T |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Frece, Sir Walter de |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Chilcott, Sir Warden | Fremantle, Lt.-Col Francis E. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Christie, J. A. | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Galbraith, J. F. W. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Clarry, Reginald George | Gates, Percy |
| Balniel, Lord | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Goff, Sir Park |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Gower, Sir Robert |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Grace, John |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) |
| Bennett, A. J. | Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Berry, Sir George | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) | Greene, W. P. Crawford |
| Bethel, A. | Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Grotrian, H. Brent |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Dalziel, Sir Davison | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) |
| Braithwaite, A. N. | Davies, Maj, Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hanbury, C. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Dawson, Sir Philip | Harrison, G. J. C. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Drewe, C. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Eden, Captain Anthony | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hawke, John Anthony |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Ellis, R. G. | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Burman, J. B. | Elveden, Viscount. | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) |
| Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Murchison, C. K. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Holt, Captain H. P. | Neville, R. J. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Nuttall, Ellis | Streatfield, Captain S. R. |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Hutchison, G. A. Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's) | Penny, Frederick George | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Hiffe, Sir Edward M. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Perring, Sir William George | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Kidd, J. (Linilthgow) | Pleiou, D. P. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Kindersley, Major G. M. | Pilditch, Sir Philip | Tinne, J. A. |
| King, Captain Henry Douglas | Power, Sir John Cecil | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Price, Major C. W. M. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Radford, E. A. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Raine, W. | Waddington, R. |
| Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Lord, Walter Greaves- | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Remer, J. R. | Watson, sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen | Remnant, Sir James | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Rentoul, G. S. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Wells, S. R. |
| McLean, Major A. | Rice, Sir Frederick | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Macmillan Captain H. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Ropner, Major L. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Macquisten, F. A. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| MacRobert, Alexander M. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemoutn) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Rye, F. G. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Malone, Major P. B. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Margesson, Capt. D. | Sandon, Lord | Womersley, W. J. |
| Mason, Lieut. Col. Glyn K. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Meller, R. J. | Savery, S. S. | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Merriman, F. B. | Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Meyer, Sir Frank | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | |
| Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Shepperson, E. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Major Cope and Captain Bowyer. |
§ Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI beg to move, in page 7, line 30, at the end, to insert the words
and shall not apply to the distribution of general trade catalogues or price lists.I want hon. Members to read Subsection (2) of Clause 4 as the description of an offence for which people can be punished. It is as follows:If any person advertises or offers for sale as being goods of a particular brand or make or otherwise under a specific designation, whether by means of an illustration or by verbal description, any imported goods of a class or description to which an Order in Council ender this Act applies, he shall, if he does not include in the advertisement or offer an indication of the origin of the goods, and subject to the provisions of this Section, be guilty of an offence against the principal Act.It is difficult to understand what is meant by "offering for sale under a specific designation by means of an illustration." The original Bill included the words which are the subject of my 304 Amendment and provided that trade catalogues should be exempt. That provision was put in by the Minister. There then arose in Committee a very interesting discussion, very subtle—almost metaphysical in its subtlety—as to whether certain items in a trade catalogue might not he of the same nature as the advertisements which are forbidden. The President of the Board of Trade began by a statement with which we all felt fully in agreement, namely that the drafting of a Bill of this kind was rather difficult. The right hon. Gentleman said that we were not to quarrel with the Parliamentary draftsman, who was doing his best, and that anybody attempting to draft this Bill would find it rather difficult. That was what I would call a cri de cœur on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. Then he went on to say that what he meant was that if there was a general description of a trade category and a general picture, not too accurate, not too much like the particular article concerned, it would then be all right and the person issuing it would not be 305 guilty of any offence. But if the picture was so accurate that you could recognise the article from the picture, then, said the right hon. Gentleman, if that article was foreign an offence would be committed. He explained at some length the case of clocks. He said we wanted to cover the typical case of the clock. Quite obviously, he pointed out, the purchaser, if he had an accurate picture of the clock, would be buying the clock from the catalogue in the same way as he might buy it across the counter. Then the right hon. Gentleman said:We do not want to cover the sort of picture of a clock which is not the clock the man is going to buy at all but is a sort of sign."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee B), 21st July, 1926; col. 744.]All this would be very amusing if we were dealing with a parlour game, but we are dealing with an offence—with an act for which a man can be punished. We are told that if, for instance, a man sells clocks by calalogue, and the picture illustrating the clock is so faithful that you can identify the foreign clock from the picture that is offering for sale by means of a specific illustration and is punishable. If, on the other hand, the picture is very bad, if it is a sort of sign of a clock, like the sign on an inn, then the retailer is perfectly free from blame and need not attach the word "foreign" to his clocks. It is no parlour game for the retailer who may be punished for making a mistake. We are here dealing with documents which are very bulky. These great trade calatogues contain hundreds of pictures. If they are selling foreign goods and the pictures are so bad as to be merely symbofs, then the person issuing the catalogue is all right. If the picture is accurate, so that one can recognise the particular foreign article described, then an offence has been, committed. I submit that it is uncommonly hard to punish retailers for making an error or for not being able to realise such a subtle distinction as this. It would be more reasonable to have trade catalogues either in or out of the Bill. To make this distinction between what is a specific picture and what is not a specific picture, to put it into a great Act of Parliament and to have unfortunate persons punished if they make a mistake as regards that distinction, is giving too much trouble to a very estimable class 306 of persons. I do not feel very much frightened about this description. It is so complex and confusing that I do not believe anybody will ever take any action under it. But even though that may be so, it seems a pity to put into an Act of Parliament a provision which is almost un-understandable, and will never be enforced, and to make the non-observance of that provision an act punishable as a crime by law.
§ Mr. NAYLORI beg to second the Amendment.
I feel the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill does not realise the practical difficulties which will arise if this Clause is left in its present form and if trade catalogues are included in the penalties laid down. I do not fear that the authors of catalogues are likely to be prosecuted because I feel it will be possible for them to make the necessary alterations when the time comes. But I feel that considerable expense will be imposed on those who require catalogues in making the necessary alterations after those catalogues have been prepared. The master printers and working printers of the country will be glad if the Government do not accept the Amendment. It will mean more work for them if expensive alterations have to be made in consequence of the shortness of the time allowed to those who require these catalogues. I am not friendly to the Bill nor to the Government which is promoting it, but with a desire to see that the Government do not make a serious mistake in an important detail, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI am a little surprised at this Amendment being moved from the Opposition Benches because the Amendment to include trade catalogues was origiNally moved by the right hon. Member for Seaham. (Mr. Sidney Webb) who argued conclusively that if sale by advertisement was to be dealt with then trade catalogues ought to be dealt with. He was supported by the hon. Member for Paddington (Sir W. Perring), who spoke as representing the view of the retailers, and with rather more authority than the hon. Lady. I accepted on its merits the view put forward by the right hon. member for Seaham and the hon. Member for 307 Paddington and after a full discussion it was agreed unanimously—certainly there was no division on it—in Committee that this was the right and the fair thing to do. I still find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Seaham and the hon. Member for Paddington and I am not prepared to reject now the Amendment I accepted then.
§ Mr. MONTAGUEI cannot help feeling that the replies of the President of the Board of Trade to the points which have been raised in connection with this Clause of the Bill indicate the extraordinary niggling and absurd character of the Bill. It may be a matter of logic that advertisements in trade catalogues should be included in the Bill, but that is the logic of absurdity because the Bill itself is of an absurd character. If proposals of this kind had been brought forward in connection with some Measure of a Socialistic character, if it had been a question of a Government Department managing, taking over or controlling an industry, we should have had the right hon. Member himself and every Member on the benches opposite talking about red tape and niggling interference with trade and industry. We of the Labour party who are Socialists are always being charged with being persons who want to interfere with private enterprise, but in this Bill we have, not interference with private enterprise on broad lines to real national advantage, but interference of the most niggling description which is bound to handicap the progress of trade and industry to a very great degree indeed.
The Amendment proposes to exempt trade catalogues and price lists. I know something about the production of trade catalogues and price lists, and I know that their production includes a large number of processes. It involves technical questions that can only he dealt with in an advertising office. Take, for instance, the production of a composite illustration in a trade catalogue. You will have the catalogue describing the prices and quality of a number of articles, but all the articles will be illustrated together in a composite illustration. Take a simple instance, that of ladies' underclothing. You will probably have a whole-page illustration showing the various kinds of underclothing 308 in actual wear. How are you going to deal with a point of this kind in regard to such a composite illustration in a trade catalogue? Are you going to label every article illustrated with its place of origin in the illustration itself, or are you going to have reference numbers so that a reader of the price list may be able to refer to the note in the catalogue in order to see where the silk stocking, or the shoe, or whatever it may be, was produced? The point is, that all these things are going to be tremendously difficult. It is not impossible, of course, to put any number of rods in delicate machinery and to upset the machinery. It is quite possible to do that, but, surely, the President of the Board of Trade and the Board of Trade itself should be the last people in the world to want to throw sand into the machinery, affecting trade and the development and prosperity of this country. It is all extremely niggling and, if not actually unworkable, only workable at the expense of industry itself.
§ Mr. BARNESThe President of the Board of Trade is quite right when he refers to the fact that the right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) drew attention to this difficulty in the Committee stage. He will at least agree that we have been consistent all the way through in regard to this advertising difficulty in so far that, both in the House and upstairs, we opposed the inclusion of advertising generally under the provisions of this Bill. The difficulty is not fully apparent here this evening. I do not suppose that the average trader of this country, which depends on advertising over large populations through the post, is aware of the difficulties involved unless this Amendment is accepted. But when the departmental stores and other merchants who issue catalogues covering a large variety of goods come to make up their trade catalogues in the future, then the full significance of the Bill will begin to impress them and opposition will steadily develop against this Clause. Take, for instance, in the case of the jewellery trade, which advertises extensively a variety of commodities, such articles as a toilet set or a manicure set. In the catalogue there is advertised a toilet set or a manicure set. The number of articles composing it may number half a dozen or a dozen different articles. 309 The composite parts of the articles may come from different parts of the world. There may be ivory from one part of the world, tortoiseshell from another, while the bristles of a brush may come from some other country. Altogether there may be half a dozen different countries involved in the make-up of these articles included in a composite toilet or manicure set. How are they going to be advertised in a trade catalogue? The merchant is in a ridiculous position. The description tends to make the advertisement absurd. Not only that, but the greater part of the labour which is applied in making and assembling these goods will be British although many of the materials that are necessary are probably impossible of production in this country.
All the absurdities of this kind of description will become clear to the trader and to the consumer when we come to the description of such articles as these in a trade catalogue. The average business man, who is intent on building up his trade, does not worry primarily about Acts of Parliament. He cannot follow all these various Regulations that Committees at the Board of Trade will he passing. Commerce to-day is so competitive that it demands the whole attention of a buyer or manager in a particular section of industry and his attention cannot be diverted from the markets and the movement of taste in order to follow these Government Regulations. One cannot expect the manager of a department developing new designs or the master printer to keep himself au fait with all these various Regulations. It will be full of difficulty. Another difficulty will be that many of these trade catalogues are in circulation over quite a long period. There are stock items, leading lines and standard lines, that do not vary from year to year. On the other hand, fresh designs are always being included in fresh catalogues. Now the President of the Board of Trade in other parts of the Bill has made a provision whereby any trade catalogue circulated before the Bill does not contravene the Regulation, but other catalogues do so. The result may be that you will have two catalogues issued by the same firm, one of which comes under the Regulations. It only requires detailed examination of this Bill to see that its 310 ultimate effect cannot possibly benefit British trade, but is injurious in all its results.
§ Mr. WEBBThe President of the Board of Trade has accused me of inconsistency. I do not quite admit it, but it is not worth going into because it is impossible to carry on the discussion of this Bill without falling into inconsistencies. I can give him several instances in his own case.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI think the right hon. Member supported it on its merits.
§ Mr. WEBBIt is quite true that in Committee I did attempt to assist the right hon. Gentleman on this point, but the trouble is that one cannot deal with each part of this extraordinary Bill without taking into account all the other parts. At that time when we were talking about this Clause, Clause 4, in Committee there was also Clause 8 which included a provision allowing catalogues to remain in force for one year. He has not only knocked that out, but he has ante-dated the period back to the publication of the draft Order. That has a great bearing on these trade catalogues. These catalogues take months to prepare and if it is going to be an offence to issue that trade catalogue on the day on which the draft Order is made it will mean that a firm will become a criminal by issuing a catalogue which it began to prepare a long time before. You cannot get up one of these great trade catalogues with hundreds of pages in a short time. This Clause will penalise the issue of that catalogue on the very day that the draft Order is laid before the House. All we say is that the right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He cannot make it a penal offence to issue a catalogue which does not supply one with every detail and at the same time go back from his original proposition that the Bill should not apply to trade catalogues. He himself gave very good reasons why the Bill should not apply to trade catalogues. We then began to discuss the question of illustrations. I suppose we lost ourselves so much over our artistic considerations in regard to the illustrations that we forgot the contention that it was impossible to require the proprietors of one of these huge trade catalogues to note down that 311 such and such a thing was English, or foreign, or Part I, or Part the other. If you consider the case of an elaborate toilet set it will be necessary to say that part of it is foreign, part of it is British Empire, and so on. If you advertise it as a British toilet set, you must specify the origin of its parts. Either you are going to put this difficulty in the way of those who issue these big trade catalogues, or, on the other hand, you are going to give these people who issue these catalogues an advantage which is seriously resisted by the retail traders. I do not see how you can get out of it by this Clause, which will work unjustly. Therefore, in spite of the assistance I gave the right hon. Gentleman in Committee, I have no hesitation in voting for the Amendment.
§ Mr. HARRISI want to congratulate the President of the Board of Trade on the most effective argument which he has produced this afternoon. He spoke of the attitude of my right hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), but all my right hon. Friend was doing was to carry the Bill to its logical absurdity. It is not fair that the man who sells his
§ goods in a shop window shall be obliged to brand his articles, while the man who sells the self-same thing in a catalogue shall not be required to brand them. But, in effect, this proposal will very much disorganise trade, Some of these big business people spend something like £10,000 in producing their catalogues. They will be penalised by this Bill. I shall vote for the Amendment unless I get some assurance that the right hon. Gentleman has some practical proposal to get over this difficulty. It might be possible in another place to move an Amendment that in regard to trade catalogues these requirements should apply for 12 months, because these catalogues are produced annually. They have to be arranged many months ahead because of the collection of all of the great number of blocks and trade advertisements. If we cannot get some assurance that the right hon. Gentleman has some plan to protect the trade from such an immense waste of money, I shall vote in favour of this Amendment.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 102; Noes, 228.
313| Division No. 487.] | AYES. | [8.6 p.m. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Purcell, A. A. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hardie, George D. | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Baker, Walter | Harris, Percy A. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Barnes, A. | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Riley, Ben |
| Batey, Joseph | Hayday, Arthur | Ritson, J. |
| Bromfield, William | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Robinson. W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Bromley, J. | Hirst, G. H. | Sakiatvala, Shapurji |
| Buchanan, G. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Scurr, John |
| Clowes, S. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sexton, James |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Connolly, M. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Cove, W. G. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Kelly, W. T. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Kennedy, T. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lansbury, George | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lawrence, Susan | Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lawson, John James | Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lee, F. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lindley, F, W. | Townend, A. E. |
| Dennison, R. | Lowth, T. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda) |
| Duckworth, John | Lunn, William | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Dunnico, H. | MacLaren, Andrew | Westwood, J. |
| England, Colonel A. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Whiteley, W. |
| Forrest, W. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Gardner, J. P. | March, S. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Maxton, James | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gosling, Harry | Montague, Frederick | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.) | Naylor, T. E. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Oliver, George Harold | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Owen, Major G. | Windsor, Walter |
| Groves, T. | Palin, John Henry | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Grundy, T. W. | Paling, W. | |
| Halt. F. (York. W. R. Normanton) | Ponsonby, Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Potts, John S. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Frece, Sir Walter de | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Penny, Frederick George |
| Apsley, Lord | Ganzoni, Sir John | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Gates, Percy | Perring, Sir William George |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Goff, Sir Park | Pielou, D. P. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Gower, Sir Robert | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Grace, John | Price, Major C. W M. |
| Balniel, Lord | Graham, Frederick F, (Cumb'ld., N.) | Radford, E. A. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Raine, W, |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Bennett, A. J. | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) | Remer, J. R. |
| Berry, Sir George | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Bethel, A. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. Eastbourne) | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Birchall, Major J. Dear man | Hammersley, S. S. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Hanbury, C. | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Ropner, Major L. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hartingtan, Marquess of | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Rye, F. G. |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Braithwaite, A. N. | Haslam, Henry C | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hawke, John Anthony | Sandon, Lord |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Savory, S. S. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Shepporson, E. W. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hills, Major John Waller | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Burman, J. B. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hudson, R. s. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteb'n) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hurst, Gerald B. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Hiffe, Sir Edward M. | Streatfield, Captain S. R. |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Jephcott, A. R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Freser |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Templcton, W. P. |
| Christie. J. A. | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Thom, Lt. Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Churchman. Sir Arthur C. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Thomson, F, C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Tinne, J. A. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Cope, Major William | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Waddington, R. |
| Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Macdonald. R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) | McLean, Major A, | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macmillan, Captain H. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Dalziel, Sir Davison | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macquisten, F. A. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Maitland, Sir Arthur D, Steel- | Wells, S. R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Malone, Major P. B. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Drewe, C. | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Meller, R. J. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Merriman, F. B. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Ellis, R. G. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Falle, sir Bertram G. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. H. (Ayr) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Fermoy, Lord | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Finburgh, S. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Murchison, C. K. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Neville, R. J. | |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Newton, Sir D. G. C, (Cambridge) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Margesson. |
§ Mr. HARRISI beg to move, in page 7, line 31, to leave out Sub-section (3).
314 "Hope springs eternal," and I hope that at last we shall get some concession from the right hon. Gentleman, who has 315 gone to consult his advisers. I feel that this Sub-section is quite superfluous and unnecessary. It requires that not only should the ordinary articles of commerce be branded with their countries of origin, but also anything that forms a distinguishable part. Take the dozens of parts that go to make a motor car and that are easily distinguishable—the carburettor, the tyres, the lamps, the leather, and all the component parts. If they all have to be branded with their country of origin, then the motor car will indeed be a lesson in geography of all over the world. You may have French tyres, American magnetos, German carburettors, foreign leather, and all the various parts of the car covered with geographical marks which will make the car the laughing-stock of the world. It will not help trade or business. I am glad to see the benevolent personality of the Parliamentary Secretary who is always open to reason and to helping the Bill through by making reasonable concessions. Why should not this question of considering whether it is necessary to brand these parts with their country of origin be left to the Committee? It should not be necessary to lay it down in the Bill that it should be necessary to brand these parts with their country of origin. It is quite clear that you are not going to help British trade, which depends on the import of raw materials and hundreds of semi-manufactured articles. It will handicap industry if a British article has to be partly branded German, French, or Italian, because a component part, which is easily distinguishable, is made abroad. The Committees I think are the best judges to decide whether component parts should be branded. I do not think it should he laid down specifically in the Bill.
§ Sir ROBERT HUTCHISONI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Sir B. CHADWICKIf we are to make this admirable Bill as workable as it should he, and as it is intended it should
§ be, why should be exclude articles which are imported in order to make up the complete article? Any number of articles may be imported into this country which make up another article, and where they can be easily marked they should be marked to carry out the sense and intention of the Bill. If it is difficult to mark them, if they are not easily marked, an Order will not be made by the Committee. Therefore, without further labouring the question, I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
§ Mr. MONTAGUEI want to put one consideration to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade. A Bill of this character ought to have some purpose, some objective. The purpose of this Merchandise Marks Bill is to enable a purchaser to know where the articles come from, in order that if he desires to purchase Empire goods or British made goods he can do so, and thus express his patriotism in the goods he buys. I want to know whether the Parliamentary Secretary really expects that a person buying a motor ear is going to be influenced by the number of marks of origin on the particular motor car. There may he hundreds of different marks of origin, and in what way are these marks going to influence h s judgment? Surely the object of the Bill should be something Imperial, and I fail to see how this marking of every component part of an intricate article is going to effect the purpose that the Bill is supposed to achieve.
§ Mr. PALINGAre we going to have an answer to all these questions? Is it sufficient for the Parliamentary Secretary to say that there is a good and sufficient reason for passing the Bill, and that when all these questions are asked he should sit still and take notice. It is not treating the House with much consideration.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 215; Noes, 102.
319| Division No. 488.] | AYES. | [8.20 p.m. |
| Acland Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Apsley, Lord | Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Ashley, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Balniel, Lord |
| Albery, Irving James | Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Astor, Viscountess | Barnett, Major Sir Richard |
| Applin, Colonel R V. K. | Atholl, Duchess of | Bennett, A. J. |
| Berry, Sir George | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Bethel, A. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Pielou, D. P. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Radford, E. A. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Hammersley, S. S. | Raine, W |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Hanbury, C. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Harrison, G. J. C. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. w. | Hartington, Marquess of | Renter, J. R. |
| Braithwaite, A. N. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Remnant, Sir James |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Haslam, Henry C. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hawke, John Anthony | Ropner, Major L. |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. v. L. (Bootle) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Rye, F. G. |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey. Farnham) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Sandeman, A, Stewart |
| Burman, J. B. | Hills, Major John Waller | Sandon, Lord |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Savery, S. S. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Cassels, J. D. | Hudson, Capt. A. u. M. (Hackney, N) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hurst, Gerald B. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hiffe, Sir Edward M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Stanley, Col. Hon. G, F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Jephcott, A. R. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Christie, J. A. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Streatfield, Captain S. R. |
| Cope, Major William | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L. | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Templeton, W. P. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Thom, Lt. Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | MacAndrew. Major Charles Glen | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Dalziel, Sir Davison | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macdonald, R. [Glasgow, Cathcart) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | McLean, Major A. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Macmillan, Captain H. | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Macquisten, F. A. | Waddington, R. |
| Drewe, C. | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Wallace, captain D. E. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Maitland, sir Arthur D. steel- | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Malone, Major P. B. | Waterhouse. Captain Charles |
| Ellis, R. G. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G | Meller, R. J. | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Merriman, F. B. | Wells, S. R. |
| Finburgh, S. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. (Ayr) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Moore, Sir Newton J. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Neville, R. J. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Gates, Percy | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John | Nuttall, Ellis | Wragg, Herbert |
| Goff, Sir Park | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | |
| Grace, John | Penny, Frederick George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Captain Viscount Curzon and |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Perring, Sir William George | Captain Margesson. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Canoock) | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Gardner, J. P. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Crawfurd, H. E. | Gibbins, Joseph |
| Baker, Walter | Dalton, Hugh | Gosling, Harry |
| Barnes, A. | Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Batey, Joseph | Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Groves, T. |
| Bromfield, William | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Grundy, T. W. |
| Bromley, J. | Day, Colonel Harry | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) |
| Buchanan, G. | Dennison, R. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Duckworth, John | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) |
| Clowes, S. | Dunnico, H. | Hardie, George D. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Harris, Percy A. |
| Connolly, M. | England, Colonel A, | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon |
| Cove, W. G. | Forrest, W. | Hayday, Arthur |
| Hayes, John Henry | Montague, Frederick | Stamford, T. W. |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Oliver, George Harold | Stephen, Campbell |
| Hirst, G. H. | Palin, John Henry | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Paling, W. | Thorne, G. R, (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Potts, John S. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Purcell, A. A. | Townend, A. E. |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Kelly, W. T. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Kennedy, T. | Riley, Ben | Westwood, J. |
| Lansbury, George | Ritson, J. | Whiteley, W. |
| Lawrence, Susan | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Lawson, John James | Sakiatvala, Shapurji | Williams, C, P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Lee, F. | Scrymgeour, E. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Lindley, F. W. | Scurr, John | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Lowth, T. | Sexton, James | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Lunn, William | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| MacLaren, Andrew | Sitch, Charles H. | Windsor, Walter |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| MacNeill-Weir, L. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) | |
| March, S. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Maxton, James | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Sir Robert Hutchison and Major |
| Owen. |
§
Further Amendment made: In page 8, line 7, leave cut the words "guilty of an offence against the principal," and insert instead thereof the words
deemed to have acted in contravention of an Order in Council made under this."—[Sir B. Chadwick.]
§ Mr. WEBBI beg to move, in page 8, line 11, to leave out the word "all."
This is a very technical Amendment. The Clause provides that a person shall not be treated as being guilty of an offence against the principal Act if he proves that he has taken all reasonable precautions against committing such an offence. The Amendment I move is to take out the word "all." It is quite right that he should have to show he had taken all precautions which it is reasonable to take, but that is not the same thing as taking all reasonable precautions. No doubt the words in the Clause are strictly in accordance with Parliamentary draftsmanship, but it must be remembered that this a penal Bill. If I were an unfortunate victim of this Bill I might be able to show that I had taken all precautions which it was reasonable to take, but if it were shown that there was another one which was in itself reasonable and which I could have taken, then, according to the strict wording of this Sub-section, I should not be held innocent.
§ Sir B. CHADWICKI must say I cannot quite follow the right hon. Gentleman in his fine distinction. If the Amendment means that a person ought to take some care, but need not exercise all the care that is necessary, then I do 320 not approve of his Amendment. He said in his very short speech that the words should be "having taken reasonable precautions," but I do not think it is at very great at infliction to ask that he should take "all reasonable precautions," and I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSI do not think the hon. Gentleman has quite answered the point. It is not so technical as my right hon. Friend would have us believe it to be. Take the case of a man who deals in small parts of motor cars and small parts of wireless apparatus. There may be 20, 30, or even 40 small items which go towards building up one machine, and if a trader takes reasonable precautions to avoid clashing with the law, he ought not to be liable to prosecution in respect of one small precaution which he has inadvertently neglected to observe. This is a complicated Bill, not such a brilliant and wonderful Bill as the hon. Member suggested it was a few moments ago, and here, I think, he might very well exercise some discretion in favour of assisting traders who honestly desire to observe the law to the best of their ability. It ought to be sufficient if traders are taking reasonable precautions without insisting upon all reasonable precautions, which may develop into unreasonable precautions, if this small word of three letters is allowed to remain. I would like the hon. Gentleman to tell us exactly what he conceives to be the Building principle for a trader who is expected to take all reasonable precautions, with all this delicate machinery of orders and Bills and so forth, when he is engaged in the performance of his 321 normal business duties. I think the hon. Gentleman ought to be willing to accept the Amendment, and leave it to the wisdom, honesty and sincerity of the average British trader to do the right thing, and give effect to what he conceives to be the law.
§ Mr. PALINGAnswer that!
§ Question put, "That the word 'all' stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 94.
323| Division No. 223.] | AYES | [7.07 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Finburgh, S. | Welter, R. J. |
| Albery, Irving James | Ford, Sir P. J. | Merriman, F. B. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Forrest, W. | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Apsley, Lord | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Frece, Sir Walter de | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Fremantle, Lt.-Cot. Francis E. | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Neville, R. J. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Balniel, Lord | Gates, Percy | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Goff, Sir Park | Penny, Frederick George |
| Bethel, A. | Gower, Sir Robert | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Grace, John | Perring, Sir William George |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Graham, Frederick F. (Cumb'ld., N.) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Plelou, D. P. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Greenall, Edward C (City of London) | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Grotrian, H. Brent | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.) | Radford, E. A. |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Raine, W. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B. | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Braithwaite, A. N. | Hammersley, S, S. | Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hanbury, C. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Remer, J. R. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Harrison, G. J. C. | Remnant, Sir James |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hartington, Marquess of | Rice, Sir Frederick |
| Broun-Lindsay. Major H. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stratford) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Haslam, Henry C. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Hawke, John Anthony | Rungles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Burman, J. B. | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxl'd, Henley) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Rye, F. G. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Cassels, J. D. | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Sandon, Lord |
| Cayzor, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Hills, Major John Waller | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Savery, S. S. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k. Nun.) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Charteris, Briqadler-General J. | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Chilcott, Sir Warden | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng, Universities) | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kine'dine, C.) |
| Christie, J. A. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hurst, Gerald B. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hiffe, Sir Edward M. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Cope, Major William | Jephcott, A. R. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Strcatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Little, Dr. E. Graham | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Templeton, W. P. |
| Dalziel, Sir Davison | Locker-Lampson, Com- O. (Handsw'th) | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Loder, J. de V. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Tinne, J. A. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Vauqhan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Drewe, C. | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Waddington, R. |
| Duckworth, John | McLean, Major A. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Ellis, R. G. | Macquisten, F. A. | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Elveden, Viscount | MacRobert, Alexander M. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| England, Colonel A. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Malone, Major P. B. | Wells, S. R. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Whcler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Margesson, Captain D. | White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple- |
| Fermoy, Lord | Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | Womersley, W. J. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) | |
| Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. | Captain Lord Stanley and Captain |
| Wise, Sir Fredric | Wragg, Herbert | Viscount Curzon. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Start., Cannock) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Saklatvala, Shapurji |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayday, Arthur | Scrymgcour, E. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Scurr, John |
| Baker, Walter | Hirst, G. H. | Sexton, James |
| Barnes, A. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Batey, Joseph | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Bromfield, William | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Smith. H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kennedy, T. | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Clowes, S. | Lansbury, George | Stamford, T. W. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lawrence, Susan | Stephen, Campbell |
| Connolly, M. | Lawson, John James | Sullivan, Joseph |
| Cove, W. G. | Lee, F. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish universities) | Lindley, F. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lowth, T. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | MacLaren, Andrew | Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westh[...]ghton) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Day, Colonel Harry | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Westwood, J. |
| Dennison, R. | March, S. | Whiteley, W. |
| Dunnice, H. | Maxton, James | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Gardner, J. P. | Montague, Frederick | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gosling, Harry | Palin, John Henry | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Paling, W. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Groves, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Windsor, Walter |
| Grundy, T. W. | Potts, John S. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Purcell, A. A. | |
| Hall, G H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.6— |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Riley, Ben | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Charles |
| Hardie, George D. | Ritson, J. | Fdwards. |
| Harris, Percy A. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, w. R., Elland) |