HC Deb 18 February 1926 vol 191 cc2093-5
46. Sir HENRY CRAIK

asked the Prime Minister by what constitutional authority the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury is described as the head of the Civil Service and acts with full voting powers on the Committee of Imperial Defence?

47. Mr. PENNY

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of withdrawing the privilege at present extended to the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury of voting at the meetings of the Committee of Imperial Defence, so that his attendance will be solely in an advisory capacity as an official of the Civil Service?

48. Mr. MACQUISTEN

asked the Prime Minister whether the permanent secretary to the Treasury is correctly described as the head of the Civil Service; and whether any and what constitutional authority can be adduced for such description of that official?

53. Captain CROOKSHANK

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the growing habit of ascribing the title of permanent head of the Civil Service to the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury; and whether there is any constitutional or statutory authority for the use of such a title?

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin)

The supreme head of all the Services of the Crown is the Sovereign. The ministerial head of His Majesty's Civil Service is the Prime Minister. The principal officer of that Service is the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury; that title was introduced in 1867 and the post has since carried with it the official headship of the Service.

The fact of the Service organisation including an official head responsible to the Prime Minister involves no constitutional issue.

The composition of the Committee of Imperial Defence is explained in Command Paper 2029 of 1924, from pages 24 and 25 of which hon. Members will see that in the exercise of his discretion the Prinme Minister summons regularly as members of the Committee, in addition to the Ministers of the Crown there mentioned, the following official representatives of the four Services, namely: the Chief of the Naval Staff, the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, the Chief of the Air Staff, and the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury. The Committee is a consultative and advisory body and has no executive powers. The responsibility to Parliament for all decisions, whether of policy or of administration, in the sphere of national defence no less than in other spheres, rests under the British Constitution solely with His Majesty's Government.

Sir H. CRAIK

Are we to understand that no authority will be permitted to be exercised by a single civil servant over any other office than his own, and that he will not be allowed to interfere with the internal affairs of any office for which the Minister in charge of that office is solely responsible to His Majesty and to this House?

The PRIME MINISTER

This is an extremely difficult subject to deal with by question and answer, and I should like to have a debate upon it, when many points might be cleared up about which, I think, some hon. Members are a little in error. If I were to answer that question in the unqualified way my right hon. Friend would like, it would prevent the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury doing such work as he has done for many year past in consulting with and advising the Prime Minister for the time being, and consulting with Ministers of Departments as to the qualifications of men fitted to be heads of the various Departments. It is perfectly impossible by way of question and answer to go into it as fully as I could desire.

Sir H. CRAIK

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that of late years the exercise of authority of this sort, which was quite unknown before in the annals of the Civil Service, has been exercised and arrogated to himself by the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury?

The PRIME MINISTER

After all, the constitution of our Government Departments is rather dynamic than static, and changes must occur; but I think as regards the point to which my right hon. Friend has alluded, the change took place a great deal earlier than he suggests. It dates in effect from the time when the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury was recognised in his particular position in 1867, which was later confirmed by the Government under the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in 1919.

Sir H. CRAIK

I have had an experience of a Department for 20 years, and I would have resented most strongly, and would have appealed to the Cabinet against any exercise of authority by the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury over my Department.

Mr. PONSONBY

May we conclude that the activities of the Committee of Imperial Defence are entirely outside the control of the House of Commons?

The PRIME MINISTER

No, Sir; I think, again, that is a misconception which shows how desirable it is that the subject should be raised. There have been three or four Debates in this House on the functions of the Committee of Imperial Defence, but there has not been one since the year 1912, since which time the greater proportion of hon. Members are new to the House. I think this question shows the desirability of having a discussion to bring the matter up-to-date.

Mr. PENNY

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if it be necessary to have these gentlemen in an advisory capacity, whether it is necessary to give them voting power?

The PRIME MINISTER

That shows the misconception which is raised. I do not propose to tell the House any more, except to state the simple fact that since the formation of the Committee of Imperial Defence, 25 years ago, there has not been a single decision which has been arrived at by voting.