RATING AND VALUATION BILL.

HC Deb 24 November 1925 vol 188 cc1199-334

As amended (in the Standing committee) further considered.

CLAUSE 11.—(Hating of, and collection of rates by, owners.)

Mr. SPEAKER

In regard to the Amendments on Clause 11 it occurs to me that it might be for the convenience of the House that we should have such discussion as there may be on the Motion to leave out the Clause and then I would preserve, in putting that Question for a Division without further discussion, some of the Amendments which propose to alter the amount of the rebate—for instance, to substitute the word "five" for "ten," or "ten" for "fifteen." I think there are three points on which we might take subsequent Divisions if that course is agreeable to hon. Members.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

The points raised in the three subsequent Amendments are points which differ from each other, and I was wondering whether you, Sir, would consent to one speech by the proposer in each of these cases so as to explain the difference between that particular Amendment and the other Amendments. We do not propose to press the question of leaving out Clause 11 to a Division. But we do want, not only to register our votes in the matter of these percentages, but also to have an opportunity, if possible, of making short statements on each of these Amendments.

Mr. SPEAKER

I think that is perfectly fair. If the first discussion is not too prolonged, I will take that course.

Mr. ATTLEE

I take it that this will not preclude discussion of the Amendments which have been put down by the Minister?

Mr. SPEAKER

No. I am dealing here only with the principle of compounding and with the amount of the rebate.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg to move to leave out the Clause.

4.0 P.M.

This Clause fixes the compounding system. Under it, the owner of any hereditament may arrange with the local authority to pay the rates of his tenants and get thereby a certain rebate. He may make this arrangement subject to paying only for those houses that are occupied and also subject to paying for all his houses whether occupied or not. The rate of rebate varies in different cases, and under the Clause we are asking to have these rates of rebate, altered to a lower figure. The point I wish to raise without dealing with the question of rebate is really a query to the Government. It is well known to the House that, under the Rent Restrictions Act, the owner who pays the rates is entitled to charge an addition to the rent dependent on the rate paid by him. We are anxious to see, in every case where the owner gets a rebate on the rates he pays, that that rebate shall also be a rebate on the rent charged to the tenant of the house. That, I believe, is the legal practice at the present time, but I am not certain that it is being carried out, and I would like to have an expression of opinion from the right hon. Gentleman on that point, in order that we may advertise to all concerned that, wherever compounding takes place, and wherever the owner gets a reduction in the rates that he has to pay to the local authority, that reduction shall be passed on in full to the tenant of the house. It was with the object of raising that issue that I put down this Amendment to reject the Clause, because, under the Clause, these rebates are going to be more extensive than they are at the present time. More people who own house property are likely to take advantage of this compounding opportunity. Therefore, so long as the Rent Restrictions Act remains in. force it will become a very important question to the owners of house property throughout the country.

Major CRAWFURD

The question which is raised by the Amendment is a rather wider one than the mere question of the convenience of compounding or the amount of the rebate that should be allowed to an owner who collects for the local authority. An Amendment which I handed in yesterday under an earlier Clause dealt with this point, and. although I do not wish to go back to that Clause—it would be out of Order—I do want to raise the general point that was raised by that Amendment. When a rate is levied upon the occupier of a house, the demand note contains information with regard to the amount of the rate and the purposes for which the rate is being raised. It seems to me very important in the interests of local government that those who vote in local government affairs should have this information. If an occupier be the tenant of a compounded house, the information contained on the demand note is not known to him. You may, therefore, have large numbers of occupiers and voters who do not know the variations—the rises and falls—in the rate nor the amounts which are required for various purposes. It seems to me that hon. Members opposite in particular, who are so interested in rates at the time that local elections occur, would do well to consider this point, and I would be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman himself would hold out some hope, if the Clause is going to be retained, that he would at least consider whether he could not have inserted in another place a provision that the information which is provided on the demand note to the owners of compounded houses should also be given to the occupiers of such property.

Mr. WOMERSLEY

I was somewhat relieved to hear from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for New-castle-under-Lymo (Colonel Wedgwood) that he had not put the Amendment down with the intention of having it carried, but in order to get a little information. I hope it is going to a vote, because I am going to appeal to the House to reject the Amendment. How any man, either the right hon. and gallant Gentleman or any of the Members who sit behind him, can defend this system I am, speaking at any rate from a working-class standpoint, the standpoint of the weekly wage earner, at a loss to know. In the constituency which I represent the council some four years ago were foolish enough to abolish compounding and go back to the direct payment of rates by the tenants. What has been the result? The mother, having to budget for her weekly expenditure, found it most inconvenient to raise the large sum which had to be paid at the end of the half year. The result was that many of the tenants fell into arrears, summonses had to be issued, and great distress was caused in the town.

There is no doubt that the convenient system for the weekly wage earner is to pay his rates with his rent. The great argument that was used against the old compounding system was that the property owners received too much for collecting the rates. I agree, but under the terms of this Bill the amount payable as a rebate to the property owners is to my mind quite reasonable and will pay the rating authorities better than having to employ men to collect, because in the particular area of which I am speaking they found that it was impossible to get this money in lump sums from the weekly wage earners. They had to engage quite a number of collectors to go round week by week for small payments. These collectors had to be paid salaries. Added to that, the rates in a large number of cases were irrecoverable and had to be excused for certain reasons. There is no doubt that the rating authority in the long run were out of pocket by abolishing the compounding system. This Clause, with the reasonable rebate allowed, will, to my mind, be a paying thing for the rating authority and undoubtedly a great boon to the weekly wage earners of this country, and I hope the House will not accept the Amendment.

Sir PHILIP PILDITCH

I rather understood the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) to say that he moved the omission of this Clause in order that provision might be made to enable the allowance which the landlord will receive to be made an allowance to the tenant in his rent.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

No, I did not make that point. I said that under the Rent Restrictions Act allowance had to be made for the rebate in the increase in the rent, and I moved the Amendment in order to get an assurance that the rebate under the Clause would be passed on to the tenants.

Sir P. PILDITCH

These allowances are given to the landlord for the performance of specific duties and for the undertaking of specific risks. He has to pay the whole of the rates under the various circumstances described in the Clause whether he receives them or not. He takes the risk of receiving them. Surely, if he is to be allowed something towards the risk that he takes and towards the expenses that he may incur, it is only reasonable, whether under the Rent Restrictions Act or not, that he should receive that sum, and that it should not be handed on to the tenant. Of course, at first sight any proposition which relieves the tenant is sure of favourable consideration on all sides of the House, but here is an occasion where I think the proposal would defeat the very object of compounding, and I cannot see that there is any justification in equity for the Amendment.

Mr. ATTLEE

We are in some difficulty with regard to this Clause, owing to the present state of the law with regard to lent restriction and rating. It is true that in compounding agreements you allow a certain percentage to the landlord for paying the rates on behalf of his tenants. The amount of the percentage varies extraordinarily up and down the country. I hear that in some areas as much as 30 or 40 and even 50 per cent. is allowed to the landlord. Take another case, an extreme case like my own borough. We abolished the existing compounding agreement, and on account of the risk of empties being to much less to-day, we were able to make new compounding arrangements and to reduce the allowance to 2i per cent. We found it quite easy to make arrangements for the weekly collection of rates through our own rate collecting staff. Here comes in the difficulty. We are going to put in certain definite figures. In certain cases, as in my own borough, that will mean giving the landlords for the performance of these duties a great deal more than they are perfectly happy to accept at the present time. On the other hand, in other areas where they have allowed a very high percentage it will result in raising the rent to numerous tenants, because, under a judicial decision, the benefit of compounding arrangements must inure to the tenants in the amount of rates that are put on to the rent under the Rent Restrictions Act. So long as we have the Rent Restrictions Act, so long shall we have these anomalies and I doubt whether the most sanguine Member on the opposite side of the House thinks that we have overtaken the shortage of houses sufficiently to abolish the Rent Restrictions Act.

At the same time, I think that the amounts allowed here are too high for the risks that must be taken. There are very few areas indeed where there are any empties, and that risk is further safeguarded by Sub-section (5), under which the owner, if he shows to the satisfaction of the rating authority that ho has not, under this compounding arrangement, collected all the rates, is going to be let off a certain amount. Therefore, we are really giving him in many cases a higher percentage abatement than he is willing to accept to-day for a risk that has been materially lessened.

I think the percentage where the rating authority makes the order is too high. I think it should be reduced, as is proposed by my friends in a further Amendment, and again I think the liberty given to the authorities to make agreements with owners for compounding is too low in some cases, having regard to the peculiar conditions created by the Rent Restriction Acts and the previous arrangements that have been made by certain local authorities, because it will result in certain areas—and areas in which particular tenants are very hard hit to-day, notably, I think, in in South Wales and Monmouth— in a general raising of rents to the tenants. On the other hand, taking a long view and regarding this as a piece of permanent legislation, if in due course the Minister of Health realises his sanguine expectations and is able to do away with the Rent Restriction Acts, the power to allow as much as 15 per cent. is, to my mind, much too high, and, therefore, we are in a difficult position altogether with regard to this Clause under the existing law. I think we want more explanations from the right hon. Gentleman as to how it will work out and why these particular amounts are put in. I suggest that the Clause really wants to be recast in order to have arrangements made for different areas in the country. I am aware that my own particular area, London, is going to be cut out of this Bill, but I have no reason to think—in fact, I have every reason to think the other way—that we shall get uniformity up and down the country between the different authorities on the amount of these compounding agreements. Unless we get something very satisfactory indeed from the Minister, I shall support the Amendment to leave out the Clause.

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain)

I think the case has now been sufficiently well stated to enable me to make some reply, and I will begin by saying in general terms that any questions which affect the rent of rent-restricted houses are not, properly speaking, a part of this Bill, and accordingly it is not our intention in any way to alter the existing state of the law in that regard. The particular decision to which I think the right hon. Member for New-castle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) referred, when he spoke of the law now providing that a landlord will receive an allowance if he collects the rates himself, and that he must pass that on to the tenant, is the decision in the case of Nicholson v. Jackson. The effect of that decision is that, while a landlord under the Rent Restriction Acts, if the rates are increased as regards a certain given datum line, may increase the rent by a corresponding amount, if, in consequence of an alteration in the allowances made to that landlord, he pays less rates than he did before, even though the reason why he pays less rates is because he is rendering a specific service for that allowance, the law provides that he must reduce the rent in accordance with the reduction in the amount of rates that he pays to the rating authority.

As to the statement that the decision is in accordance with the law, I am bound to say it was never contemplated by those who passed the Bent Restriction Acts. The abatement given in oases of compounding was, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Sir P. Pilditch) suggested, given to the landlords because they were performing a particular service. Whether they were paid more than they should be for that service may be a matter of opinion, but there was, at any rate, an agreement that this was an allowance or commission paid to them for collecting rates which they were not otherwise by law bound to do, and it does seem a curious thing that, under the wording of the law, it should be found that this allowance made to the landlord has to be handed over to the tenant, who has performed no service for it at all. However, that is how the law stands, and we are not proposing here to make any alteration in it, because we do not consider, whatever may be the rights or wrongs of the case, that this is the appropriate place for making any such alteration.

It is said that, whether we intend it or not, an alteration will be made in effect by the provisions of this Clause. I think it will be seen, if hon. Members will refer to a later provision in the Clause, namely, Sub-section (9), which gives the date on which it comes into operation, that the changes contemplated by this Clause do not come into operation until after the expiration of the Rent Restriction Acts. Hon. Members opposite may say: "But the Rent Restriction Acts may have to be prolonged, and may not actually come to an end when they are due to expire." All I can say is, if that be so, that there is plenty of time before us to consider what steps may be necessary to take, and I will go so far as to say that we certainly should consider, in the event of any prolongation of the Rent Restriction Acts, whether any steps were necessary in order to provide against an alteration in the existing practice.

The second point is a different point, and was raised by the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee). He says that the practice with regard to the allowances payable to landlords for collecting rates differ in different parts of the country, and that the abatements or allowances which are provided in the Clause are very much higher than in some cases the landlords are quite willing and happy to accept, and, he says, the result of this Clause will be to force the local authorities to grant allowances in those cases which are much more than they are doing now and which there is no justification for asking them to do, but surely the hon. Member has not considered carefully what the provisions of the Clause are. There is no compulsion upon a local authority to grant these particular allowances. They are not obliged to direct by resolution that owners of particular classes of property shall be rated, and if they think 10 per cent. is too high an allowance, all they have to do is to abstain from passing any resolution.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

They cannot carry on the present practice of a lower rate.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Why not?

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Can they?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

That is what I was going on to say. That is just what they can do. They can then come under Sub-section (2), and they can make agreements with the landlords, and if it be true that a landlord is quite happy and comfortable with the allowance he is now receiving, he will be very ready to enter into an agreement with the local authority as to the amount of allowance he is to receive. I would call particular attention to the wording in line 10, on page 13, from which it will be seen that in the case of these agreements the amount of the allowance is not specifically defined, but is to be "not exceeding" 15 per cent. Therefore, it is open to an authority to make any agreement which they think fair and which the landlord also thinks fair, and it appears quite clear that the dangers foreseen by hon. Members opposite are not really warranted by the wording of the Clause, that the Clause is quite elastic, and that it gives every possible opportunity for local authorities and landlords to agree upon proper and convenient scales of allowance. I think I have said all that I need say on this Amendment, but I will reserve my right of replying to a particular point which may be brought forward when we go on to deal with particular figures which hon. Members desire to substitute for those in the Bill.

Mr. BARKER

There are two limitations in this Clause which I should like the Minister to remove. The one is that the abatements do not apply to rents collected quarterly, and I am at a loss to conceive why that is put in. My constituency think they should have unfettered discretion with reference to this matter, and, therefore, I should be glad if the Minister would amend the Clause to remove that limitation. The next-point is with reference to the rateable value of £13. I do not know why the Minister has selected that figure, because in the area that I represent most of the houses are very much higher than £13 rateable value. The Bent Restriction Acts have complicated the operation of this Clause very materially. At the present time these abatements go to the tenant, because the landlord has only the statutory rent to collect, but these abatements, as far as they affect the tenant at the present time, are very much lower in the Bill than the abatements that are at present in operation, and, consequently, the direct effect on these tenants will be virtually to raise their rents. I do not know whether the Minister can meet a case like that. I think the abatements, if they are left entirely as they are now, to be taken by the landlord are altogether out of proportion to the risk he runs or the service he renders, and, therefore, they should be reduced. I commend these points to the consideration of the Minister.

Mr. MARDY JONES

I am obliged to the Minister of Health for the very careful statement he made in the name of the Government with regard to the excessive charges that may accrue to tenants when the Rent Restriction Acts cease and this new rating law comes into operation, and we had it from the Under-Secretary also, during the Committee stage, that if there will be a serious increase of burdens when this new law comes into operation, the Government will be prepared to face the situation when and as it arises. Those certainly are very welcome statements. I can predict very safely that the situation will arise, and if this Clause is to be operated three years hence on these lines it is going to have a very serious effect on the tenant class of the country in the ordinary cottage. I do not quite agree with the Minister when he said that the legal decision in the Nicholson and Jackson case, while it was good law, was not the intention of the authors of the original Rent Restriction Act. I submit that the Nicholson v. Jackson case gives legal effect to what was the real intention in this House when the first Rents Act of 1915 was brought in and carried into law. We were then in the height of a great War, and property owners were so concerned about the protection of their property that they were prepared to give the tenant class, for their loyalty to the country, a certain amount of benefit- on their house rents. Under the circumstances the tenant class will be neither better nor worse off during the period of rent restriction than before the War. This is a qualification that needs to be recorded.

I would point out that the Minister has made no provision at all in this Clause to meet the case of the occupying-owner class in this country. There are at least half a million working-class owners of houses in which they live, and under the existing rating law, while compounding allowances are granted to the owners of property who collect the rates, no allowance is given to the occupying-owner class who pay their rates direct as owners and occupiers. We made an appeal in the Committee stage that that should be amended, and that the occupier-owning class under the new law should be placed in exactly the same position as the other owners of property. I submit that it is a distinction against the working classes to have the Bill drawn in this way.

I should like the Hou30 to know the effect of Clause 11, and the abolition of the old compounding allowances in connection with it when the present Rent Restriction Act disappears. The net effect is going to be an enormous increase of rent in all those parts of England and Wales where there has been the local custom of granting this, and also in every necessitous area where there is a great deal of unemployment. I can give the House one illustration as to how this new Clause is going to affect the average house property in the South Wales coalfields area, in Monmouthshire, Glamorganshire and Carmarthenshire, and what is true of these instances is true, more or less, of many parts of the country, including the necessitous areas, which are suffering so badly from unemployment. When this Clause is put into operation two or three years hence, on a typical cottage that was let at 7s. 6d. a week before the War, the rent will jump up to 13s. 6d. per week. I do not wish to weary the House by giving the full figures that I have, but they are figures submitted to us by the clerk of the local district rating authorities of South Wales. In another instance, the increase actually of a 7s. 6d. pre-War house will be 6s. in the total rent. I submit that that is an enormous increase to be charged upon that class of tenant. Therefore I say that while this Clause takes no recognition of that kind of thing there will be obviously a serious problem as to how to adjust that inequality.

Sir LESLIE SCOTT

The answer given by the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, in regard to the criticism of matters in Sub-section (2), the House probably feels is eminently satisfactory. Persons of the class referred to are left to the discretion of the local authorities, the cost of the net increase in the rates, in fact, being paid at the discretion of the local authorities themselves. But there is another comparable point that I should like the Minister, if he would, to deal with, which I myself think ought to be made quite clear to the Committee.

The House is probably aware that in the Liverpool area we have a local Act in operation in which there are special and different rates of allowance to those of the Act of 1869. For instance, there are allowances of 20 per cent. and 17½ per cent. in comparison with the 15 per cent. and 15 per cent. under Section 4 of the Act of 1869, making in all 37½ per cent. These allowances were fixed by Parliament as short a time ago as 1921. At that time the housing shortage was extremely bad, and, therefore, that matter was one which was thoroughly present to the minds of the Committee upstairs and of this House when fixing the allowances. The arrangement is one which has been working very well, and I believe with general satisfaction. Under this Clause 11, as I read it, these local arrangements, authorised by Parliament, are not interfered with unless the local authority in its discretion thinks it desirablo that there should be an alteration. Sub-section (9) of the present Clause provides that— (9) These provisions of this Section shall come into operation in any rating area on the date on which the first new valuation list made under Part II of this Act for that area comes into operation, and shall have effect in substitution for the provisions contained in Sections (3) and (4) of the Poor Rate Assessment and Collection Act, 1869 … and unless the rating authority concerned otherwise resolve, for any provisions contained in any local Act or provisional Order with respect to the rating of owners instead of occupiers… As I read this Sub-section it seems to me quite clear that the local Act will continue if the local authority passes a resolution that it shall continue. I should, however, like an assurance from the Minister that that is so, because the members on Mersey-side are rather anxious to know that that is in fact the view of the Government of the meaning of this Clause.

One word more, on a totally different topic—that raised by the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. M. Jones). The point raised by the hon. Member dealt with the case for an allowance to the occupying owner. In so far as the reduction or allowance is given for services rendered it is, I think, strictly inapplicable to the case of the owner who occupies his own house, and who simply pays the rate because he occupies it. But I confess myself to a considerable feeling of sympathy with the occupying owner who is put at a disadvantage, by reason of his occupying his own house. I suggest that he should at least have as an allowance the lower rate which is paid to the owner under Sub-section (2) (b), namely, the rate applicable in the case of houses that are occupied, and during the time they are occupied. I must confess I should rather like to see the occupying owner enjoying a comparable advantage of some kind After all, the occupying owner is a man who does own his house, and that is, in effect, a guarantee to the rating authority of the payment of the rates in respect of that house. And he is a man who has invested his capital in his house, very often, after long and strenuous days of saving. I think he is entitled at least to the same measure of assistance as the owner is given in the Bill in respect of an agreement in regard to houses which are occupied, that is to say, at a lower rate than where the owner guarantees payment of the rates on all his houses, whether they are occupied or not. He is there getting payment for a guarantee of a totally different kind. That obviously is inapplicable. But I do submit for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman sin charge of the Bill that he might sympathetically consider the proposal which fell from the hon. Member for Pontypridd.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Might I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman what are the special rates in Liverpool as compared with the rates under the 1869 Act?

Sir L. SCOTT

The first one is 35 per cent. as compared with the 25 per cent. allowed by Section (3) of the Act of 1869, and the other two are 20 per cent. and 17½ per cent. as compared with 15 per cent. and 15 per cent. under Section (4) of the Act of 1869. I do not say that these figures are in practice reached in Liverpool. I express no opinion whether they are or not. In certain cases they may be. When houses are in such demand as they are to-day it is obvious that the percentage of empty houses is necessarily small. But I only add this in regard to the occupying owners, that I can see no principle upon which they should be worse treated than any other class.

Mr. BROAD

Perhaps it is not quite realised that the full consequences of Sub-section (1), paragraph 2, will be to abolish compounding where it already exists in the greater part of the industrial areas of the country. I believe, at all events, that it will abolish the general practice of compounding in industrial areas to houses which are assessed at a maximum of £10. You cannot forget the economic consequences. In my particular district, which is entirely working class, 95 per cent. of the houses put up were of such a quality that they would not be assessed at more than £10. This had the strong economic effect of depressing the standard of housing in the working-class areas. Those builders who had put up houses found that they had to spend about 1s. to get back 3d. in income, and there was almost a cessation of building houses of a price beyond those which, including rates, would let at 7s. 6d. per week. If the house had a bath fitted, and a little alteration made, putting the rent up to 8s. 6d., the landlord, I think, got another 3d. out of it. Even if you take the whole of the London suburbs you will find the bulk of working-class tenants are pre-War assessed at £10. The Minister, I believe, visualises the time, not far distant, when the Rent Restriction Act is to be removed, and when the present allowed addition of 40 per cent. will become consolidated in the rent. The house will then be reassessed, and, certainly, the percentage added to the present assessment of £10 will be to make it £14.

Another fact to take into consideration if you retain compounding is that I urge that you should give every inducement, and allow no economic advantage, but every economic advantage, to building a better class of houses. Realising this position more than 20 odd years ago, my particular district, in a moment of enlightenment, decided to abolish compounding, with the consequence that we can raise the same amount of money locally on a certain rating with a less poundage. This was a relief, of course, to the business and trade interests and so on, and yet not less to the local authority, and no increase of the rates on the smaller tenant-occupiers. We were met by the landlords and the big house and estate agents, who said they would throw the rates on to the tenants and make them pay half-yearly. They said it would cost the local authority a great deal more than 15 per cent. to collect the rates. That was the threat, but in actual fact it never occurred.

One or two landlords tried it, but when they threw on to the tenants the responsibility of paying the rates half-yearly, they found that just about the end of the half-year, when the rate collectors began to put pressure on the tenants, the rates were paid first and the rent was left in arrears. With the exception of a few of the larger houses, there is to-day no question of the landlords making the tenants collect the rates. Though they do not get 2½ per cent. for collecting the rates—they get nothing at all—they still collect them and pay them in in order to secure their rents. As to the question of the landlord being responsible for the rates, whether the house is occupied or not, we cannot see a time when houses will not be fully occupied. At the present rate at which we are overtaking arrears in housebuilding, it will be beyond my lifetime before we shall have unoccupied houses, and this means a clear gain of 15 per cent. to the landlord. If that is to be paid out of the national exchequer, it may be; but if it is to be found out of the pockets of small occupying owners and is to go into the pockets of landlords who are having none of the risks of empties such as they had a few years ago, it is a bad proposition; at any rate an allowance of 15 per cent. is not required to meet the case.

With regard to the 10 per cent. allowance so long as the house is occupied, the only risk the landlord has to take is the risk of the tenant going away without having paid his rent, and in such a case I think 10 per cent. is too generous an allowance. As to the 5 per cent. allowed for collection, it is a fair proposition to allow something for collecting rates, but we must remember that the landlord will have the money in his pocket for three or four months before paying it into the local authority, and that is an advantage to him—the bigger the owner, the more reluctant he is to pay in those rates—and if there is to be any allowance for that, I think it should be for heavier rates than are collected in the case of £13 assessments, and that the only allowance should be 2½ per cent. I would ask the Minister, if he cannot meet us on these points, at any rate to take notice of the consequences of limiting these proposals to £13 assessments. If they must be retained, let it be double that amount, so as to give encouragement to the building of better class houses.

Mr. STORRY DEANS

I cannot agree with hon. Members opposite who have been speaking of the great advantages of the compounding system to landlords, and talking as if landlords were going to make a fortune out of it. The basis of their argument is that every tenant pays to his landlord that which he has contracted to pay, and pays it punctually every week, and that the landlord has no risk whatever; that all he has to do at the end of the quarter is to pay over the rates to the local authority; and that for doing this he gets a handsome allowance of 10 per cent. If that statement represented the facts the landlord would be well paid, in fact, would be overpaid, and ought to be content with 1 or 2 per cent. for the trouble of collecting the rates. What the landlord is really paid for is not for collecting the rates and paying them over, but for guaranteeing that the rates shall be paid. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott) talks about an owner-occupier guaranteeing the payment of the rates of his own house to the local authority. I thought it was elementary knowledge that when you guarantee something you do not guarantee your own debt, you guarantee somebody else's debt.

Sir L. SCOTT

If I may interrupt my hon. and learned Friend. In this House I try to avoid legal language, and talk the ordinary language of common sense.

Mr. STORRY DEANS

In this case it was not only not law, but it was not common sense to talk about a man guaranteeing the payment of his own debts. Who ever heard of such a thing? The landlord says: "The rates of these cottages which I own shall be paid half-year by half-year to the local authority, whether I get the money back or whether I do not." That is a true guarantee, both in law and in common sense. When a man says, "I will guarantee that I will pay you what I owe you on the day it is due," that is not a guarantee, it is a figure of speech. So much for the aspect of compounding.

The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. Mardy Jones) was pathetic in his references to the effect of this Bill on working-class tenants. I think he is under a misapprehension. In the case of a house let at 7s. 6d. a week the owner can, even today, by giving proper notice, compel his tenant to pay any increase in rates that there has been since 1914. The only difference it can make to him when this Act comes into force will be that he will be able to put into his own pocket the allowance of 10 per cent. on the rates which now, under the Rent Restriction Acts, he has to allow to the tenant. I find it difficult to conceive that 10 per cent. of the increase of rates on a 7s. 6d. house between 1914 and to-day is 5s. 6d. a week. It will take a good many assessment clerks in South Wales or anywhere else to convince me that those figures are accurate.

Mr. MARDY JONES

May I interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman? The point is this. As a result of the Rent Restriction Acts the power of the owner of a house to increase the rent has been limited to charging the actual increase he pays in rates over the rates in force in 1914; and in addition (after having given due notice to conclude the tenancy and to create a new tenancy) he can charge an extra 40 per cent. in rent. If the Rent Restriction Acts disappear, that protecting limit will disappear, and the only thing that will remain will be the economic law of supply and demand. Everybody knows that the supply of houses is so much less than the demand that, generally speaking, landlords, can charge any rent they like within the power of the tenant to pay. The assessment committees under this new law, like assessment committees in the past, must take into account in assessing rateable value the rent that a. house will command. An acute demand meeting a shortage of houses will mean the creation of new rateable values, and under these conditions, because of the reduced compounding allowance, and because of the reduction of the statutory reductions under the system where existing assessment committees assess Recording to the local circumstances, I have no hesitation in saying that this is going to lead to a serious increase in rents in necessitous areas in the near future.

Mr. STORRY DEANS

I really think my hon. Friend has taken full advantage of my courtesy in giving way to him. I do not intend to argue the policy of the Rent Restriction Acts, either as to repealing them, allowing them to lapse or continuing them. I am directing my mind to this Bill. My only point is that the effect of the 10 per cent. allowed under this Bill cannot possibly be to raise rents of 7s. 6d. a week by 5s. 6d. I would like to add that I had an Amendment down, and it might have given rise to a long discussion, but I am quite satisfied with the assurances given by my right hon. Friend and I shall not move that Amendment.

5.0 P.M.

Mr. CONNOLLY

Some hon. Members have expressed surprise that an Amendment of this kind should have come from he Labour Benches, and have said they consider the compounding system the best as far as the working classes are concerned. I will place one or two figures before the House to show that it is not the best system, and how the working classes can be robbed under it. In Central Newcastle, within a year and nine months, we recovered for people £2,500 in respect of overcharges for rates. In West Newcastle we recovered £2.000. These sums were made up of amounts ranging from a few shillings to two or three pounds. To show how far this thing can be carried, let me give one extreme instance. In the ward which I represent on the Newcastle City Council there was a tenant who was paying rates with the rent, that is to say, paying rents and rates in one sum per week to the collector; on top of that she was paying rates to the same collector, and in addition she received a demand from the town hall and paid rates the third time. This was discovered through the assessment forms varying in different quarters. For one quarter the assessment form gave the assessment as £12, for the next quarter £13 10s. and for the third quarter £14. We said, "One of these may be right, they cannot all be right," and we inquired at the town hall as to which of the three was the correct assess- ment, and there we found that in actual fact the. assessment was £10. That woman became entitled to a return of £84 16s. She put that amount down as an instalment towards the purchase of her house, got a mortgage on it, and is now buying the house and paying less than she previously did. That is an extreme case, of course, but it shows the extent to which robbery can go on with compounding. I would like to ask the Minister a question. I understand that the Amendment in the name of the Minister, in page 12, line 39, after the word "quarterly," to insert the words "(exclusive of hereditaments belonging to the rating authority)," is not to be moved. That obviates any further remarks of mine, and I will close by saying that I hope the House will support the deletion of the Clause altogether.

Mr. SKELTON

I rise to support the very interesting suggestion made by the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott). It seems to me to be extremely good common sense, and, what is the same thing, a very sound Conservative principle, that an owning occupier, who, whatever legal meaning may be attached to the word "guarantee," undoubtedly secures, better than any other form of occupier, the payment of rates to the local authority, should get whatever rebate is given to an owner who undertakes to pay rates for the houses he owns, whether occupied or not. I do not know whether at this stage of the discussion it would be possible for the Minister to include such a provision in the Bill, but I could not let; such an interesting suggestion be made without rising to support it.

Mr. LANSBURY

I rise only to put two points, which I think affect this Clause. I should have been inclined to vote against the proposal to leave out the Clause had it not been for the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, because it appears that he proposes to stick to his percentages. I think the percentages are altogether too high, for two reasons. One is that there is a complete shortage of houses, but no shortage of tenants, and all this compounding was begun, or, at least, defended in the East End of London in the old days on the plea that the man paid whether the houses were occupied or not. That state of things has passed away, and the question of empties does not arise at all. Therefore, a very much less amount ought to be paid for the mere collection when he is collecting the rent with the rates, and I would point out there is no option with regard to houses as to how much the rating authorities may allow. The right hon. Gentleman is at some pains to continue to say to us that the authority need not do it, but if the authority does want to compound this Clause says the rating authority "shall allow to any owner." It is not a question of "may" allow, but if the authority want to compound, they can only compound by paying 10 per cent. I think the Minister ought really to have met us on that point, and I think also he ought to realise that putting in a figure like that, even if it were optional, would be almost invariably the figure that the house owners would demand. I should have voted against leaving the Clause out, but, apparently, the Minister is going to be adamant on the subject, and, if so, I shall vote against the Government proposal as in the Clause.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood)

Perhaps the House will allow me briefly to reply, as best I can, to some of the questions that have been put, and we shall then, I have no doubt, be able to proceed to the other Amendments on the Order Paper which raise more specifically some of the points which have been put. Perhaps I might make an observation on the speech just made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). He said, in criticising the percentages which are allowed in this Clause, that they were too high, and one of the reasons he put forward was that there was still a housing shortage, and, therefore, there would be no considerable risk to be safeguarded so far as empty premises were concerned. I think both in this matter and in connection with the remarks made by the hon. Gentleman opposite, the House should certainly remember that, of course, the operation of this Clause does not come into being: until 1928. Therefore, so far as the position of housing is concerned, if the present rate of progress, which, as the House knows, is a record in this country, continues, no doubt by the year 1928 there will be a very considerable alteration in affairs so far as housing shortage in this country is concerned, and that ought certainly to be taken into account in any consideration of the amount of percentages in this connection. Whether the House agree with the percentages in the Bill or not, I would say that they were subjected to very long discussion in Committee, where Members took the view that percentages were either too high or too low, and various Amendments were moved much in the same terms as those on the Paper to-day. I think it is only fair to say that the Committee as a whole took the middle course, and considered the percentages now set out in the Bill on the whole fairly met the situation. I think it can be fairly said of all the per centages in the Bill that they differ from those, in some cases of a very high and extravagant character, which were made in the years gone by.

Another point which was put was, why should £13 be the limit In the first place. Members of the House, I dare say. will remember that the Kill was circulated a very long while ago, and the proposal of £13 was the suggestion that was made in the draft Hill as a reason able one. That went to all the local authorities in the country and their particular associations, and was the subject of a great deal of consideration by them. Since that time—and it is a very considerable time ago—we have not had, at any rate to the best of my recollection, a single criticism from any body of local authorities up and down the country in relation to the figure,£l3, and that is so for a very good reason, because I see that the limits of value which previously appertained were, for instance, in Birmingham £10, and elsewhere £8. It is True we must add to that the 40 per cent, permitted by the Increase of Rent Act. but on those figures the House will see that, in fact, taking the whole of the country, those particular figures might have been increased.

Mr. BROAD

The hon. Member stated that the draft Bill was circulated to the local authorities a long while since. They then had not in mind the consolidation of the 40 per cent, increase under the Rent Restrictions Act. Had they had that in mind, the figure might have been very different.

Sir K. WOOD

I do not think it would have been so, because, as a matter of fact, right up to the Report stage of this Bill my Department has been in close contact with the various associations up and down the country. Therefore, if there be any point in the observations of the hon. Gentleman, I am sure we should have heard from the local authorities, and we have not had a single criticism in that connection. I hope the hon. Gentleman who raised this question in Committee, and forecasted the effect of this particular Clause on the rates in South Wales, now understands the situation, as I believe he does, In other words, this particular Clause does not come into operation until the expiration of the Rent Restrictions Act. and when that time arrives, as I told him in Committee, we shall, of course, undertake the consideration, of the situation: as it then is. and the situation generally of the future of. the Rent Restrictions Act and this particular Clause, and will have to provide for it, if it be desirable so to do. Obviously, that is a matter we must leave to that particular time to deal with.

May I also refer to the interpretation. given by my hon. and learned friend the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott)? I think my best course would be to say I confirm the statement he made as to the position of authorities under Sub-section (9), and particularly that. phrase which makes pro vision for any local Act or Provisional Order. I think he quite correctly stated the position so far as that is concerned. The only other point is in connection with the position of the occupying owner, and the House may observe that there is an Amendment, which, I hope, we shall reach shortly, in the names of three hon. Members, to insert a new Sub-section (10). the last words of which are, "and does not include an owner who is in occupation thereof." I have no doubt we shall have an opportunity of dealing with the position of the owner-occupier when we reach that Amendment. It should, how ever, at once be said, that as far as the owner-occupiers are concerned, although I am sure my hon. and learned Friend and I desire to encourage them in every way, as I suppose most Members of the House do, of course they can take advantage of Clause 8 making arrangements for dis- count for prompt payment. How far it is necessary to give this provision to owner occupiers when, of course, this is a payment for collection, is a matter that, I think, we might easily and most conveniently consider when we come to the particular Clause. I think I have answered all the points.

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

Is is. obviously, important, before we come In a decision whether or not to vote against this Clause, that we should have-some idea as to the attitude of the Minister on the Amendment referred to. If he says he is prepared to accept the point of view put on this side and also by the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division (Sir L. Scott) when we come to that Amendment, that might affect cur decision.

Sir K. WOOD

That, is a matter upon which we should like to hear a discussion, although I cannot agree that it is a question which goes to the whole roof of the Clause. I hope the House will now be satisfied with the very full and useful discussion which has taken place, on this Clause, and allow us to proceed with the Amendments.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

A reference has. been made to both the inclusion and the withdrawal of the Amendment of the Minister on page 12. I would like to know if that is going to be withdrawn?

Sir K. WOOD

Yes, that is so.

Mr. MONTAGUE

We have heard the statement. from the Parliamentary Secretary that the housing problem will be solved in 1928—

Sir K. WOOD

My argument was that we should reconsider the matter in 1928 when we have had all the facts before us. Of course, no one can prophesy what the position will be then, but although the hon. Member is not quite so sanguine. as I am, we can review the situation in 1928.

Mr. MONTAGUE

The. Government are basing their arguments for this Bill upon that assumption. [Hon. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I would like to point out that this time last year there was a short age of over 100,000 houses. It is quite true that this has been a record year, but you are only now about 30,000 above the normal.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope)

I do not think this question ought to be pursued on this Amendment.

Mr. G. HALL

I want to ask a question as to whether these allowances which have been referred to are temporary allowances on account of subsidences in connection with colliery workings. I would also like to know how far this pro vision will prevent local authorities giving temporary relief?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

That has nothing whatever to do with this Clause, and it is dealt with under another Clause.

Mr. ALEXANDER

We were rather expecting some answer from the Parliamentary Secretary to the remarks which were made by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) who spoke about the practise of compounding rent. I want the Minister to take note of. some of the things which are going on in the City or Sheffield, which I represent. I have received a communication from the Sheffield Tenants' Association in which they state that they are anxious that the House of Commons should oppose this Clause because of the increased power it will put into the hands of landlords under present conditions because it tends to heap up more readily the arrears of rent, more especially in the case of unemployed persons, and it also increases the landlords' power to carry out evictions. We have had many discussions during the last two or three Parliaments about evictions, but there is a strong feeling on the. part of the Sheffield Tenants' Association that their position will be made worse if this Clause is passed. They were hoping that when the Minister of Health produced his Rating and Valuation Bill there would be some pro vision for relieving them in this respect rather than making things more strenuous.

They have put to me one or two special cases. There was the case of a Sheffield estate agent who was caught improperly detaining tenants' rate money, and he had to hand over £21 14s. in order to keep his name from appearing in the Courts. But for the Sheffield Tenants' Association that money would never have been recovered. In. another case a tenant was ejected from his house by an agent for arrears of rent and rates. He was told that he owed £13, but he afterwards discovered that there was entered against him £20 12s. for rates alone. It was shown that considerable arrears had not been paid in by the agent. I do not want to take up the time of the House relating such instances, but I want to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary that many of us are receiving from our constituents communications about the maintenance of the principle of compounding to the detriment of the poorer class of weekly tenants, and we wish him to take that point into account in considering the whole Clause

Mr. VIANT

It seems to me that the merits of this Clause have been put forth as being to the advantage of the tenants, but that is an argument which I want to challenge. I have sat on a local authority, and we decided to abolish the compounding system. The astounding argument has been used that these abatements are allowed to the owners of property because of the risk they run, but in the case of the local authority to which I have referred we found that the property owners in the district, when they heard that the compounding system was about to be abolished, sent deputations to the council to persuade them not to carry out that policy.

That in itself, although it is not an isolated case, suggests to me that there is no risk entailed by the property owner such as has been argued here to-day which justifies this House in passing this Clause. The abatements are much too high. I oppose the Clause from another point of view. I am opposed to the system of compounding simply because it is detrimental to critizenship. I have in mind an estate upon which the compounding system was in vogue, and when the local elections took place you could not on that estate stimulate any interest in citizenship.

Personally, I would oppose any principle of compounding on that ground alone, because it is always detrimental to the tenants and beneficial to the property owners. I hope we are going to have an opportunity of supporting this Amendment for the purpose of voting against this Clause. I feel that the wage-earners may find it difficult to put away so much every week for rent, but ultimately if they do this we should gain from the point of view of citizenship. On those grounds I am prepared to go into the Division Lobby and vote against this Clause.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'which,' in line 13, stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 310, Noes, 124.

Division No. 396.]	AYES.	[5.27 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Clayton, G. C.
Albery, Irving James	Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Cobb, Sir Cyril
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Brass, Captain W.	Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Brassey, Sir Leonard	Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Briscoe, Richard George	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Conway, Sir W. Martin
Astor, Viscountess	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Cooper, A. Duff
Atholl, Duchess of	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Couper, J. B.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Courtauld, Major J. S.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Buckingham, Sir H.	Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Craig, Capt Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Bullock, Captain M.	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan	Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Burman, J. B.	Crawfurd, H. E.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Burton, Colonel H. W.	Crook, C. W.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Butt, Sir Alfred	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Bennett, A. J.	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Campbell, E. T.	Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert
Berry, Sir George	Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Curzon, Captain Viscount
Bethell, A.	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Dalkeith, Earl of
Betterton, Henry B.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)	Dalziel, Sir Davison
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Davies, Dr. Vernon
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Christie, J. A.	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Blundell, F. N.	Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Clarry, Reginald George	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan
Drewe, C.	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Rice, Sir Frederick
Duckworth John	Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Jacob, A. E.	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Jephcott, A. R.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Elveden, Viscount	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
England, Colonel A.	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Rye, F. G.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Salmon, Major I.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Lamb, J. Q.	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Everard, W. Lindsay	Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Falls, Sir Bertram G.	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Sandon, Lord
Fenby, T. D.	Looker, Herbert William	Savery, S. S.
Fermoy, Lord	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Fielden, E. B.	Lougher, L.	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Finburgh, S.	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Shepperson, E. W.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Forrest, W.	Lumley, L. R.	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Foster, Sir Harry S.	MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Skelton, A. N.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Fraser, Captain Ian	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Macintyre, Ian	Smithers, Waldron
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	McLean, Major A.	Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Ganzoni, Sir John.	Macmillan, Captain H.	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	McNeill, Rt. Hon Ronald John	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Gates, Percy	Macquisten, F. A.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Gee, Captain R.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Malone, Major P. B.	Storry Deans, R.
Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Margesson, Capt. D.	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Goff, Sir Park	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Gower, Sir Robert	Meller, R. J.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Grace, John	Meyer, Sir Frank	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Grant, J. A.	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Gretton, Colonel John	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Grotrian, H. Brent.	Moles, Thomas	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Tinne, J. A.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Murchison, C. K.	Waddington, R.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Nelson, Sir Frank	Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Hammersley, S. S.	Neville, R. J.	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Hanbury, C.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Warrender, Sir Victor
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Harland, A.	Nicholson, O- (Westminster)	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Harrison, G. J. C.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Watts, Dr. T.
Hartington, Marquess of	Nuttall, Ellis	Wells, S. R.
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Haslam, Henry C.	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Hawke, John Anthony	Owen, Major G.	Wiggins, William Martin
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Penny, Frederick George	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Henderson, Lieut. Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Williams, Herbert G, (Reading)
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Hilton, Cecil	Philipson, Mabel	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Pielou. D. P.	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Pilcher, G.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Pilditch, Sir Philip	Wolmer, Viscount
Holland, Sir Arthur	Power, Sir John Cecil	Womersley, W. J.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Preston, William	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Radford, E. A.	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Raine, W.	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)	Ramsden, E.	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)	Rees, Sir Beddoe
Hume, Sir G. H.	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Major Sir Harry Barnston and
Hurst, Gerald B.	Remnant, Sir James	Major Cope.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon, W. (Fife, West)	Baker, Walter	Beckett, John (Gateshead)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Barnes, A.	Briant, Frank
Attlee, Clement Richard	Barr, J.	Broad, F. A.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Batey, Joseph	Bromfield, William

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Buchanan, G.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)
Cape, Thomas	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snell, Harry
Charleton, H. C.	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Spencer, G A. (Broxtowe)
Clowes, S.	Kelly, W. T.	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Cluse, W. S.	Kennedy, T.	Stamford, T. W.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.	Lansbury, George	Stephen, Campbell
Compton, Joseph	Lawson, John James	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Connolly, M.	Lee, F.	Taylor, R. A.
Cove, W. G.	Lindley, F. W.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lowth, T.	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Dalton, Hugh	Lunn, William	Thurtle, E.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Mackinder, W.	Townend, A. E.
Day, Colonel Harry	MacLaren, Andrew	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Dennison, R.	Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)	Varley, Frank B.
Duncan, C.	March, S.	Viant, S. P.
Dunnico, H.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Gibbins, Joseph	Montague, Frederick	Warne, G. H.
Gosling, Harry	Morrison, R. c. (Tottenham, N.)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Murnin, H.	Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Greenall, T.	Naylor, T. E.	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne)	Oliver, George Harold	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Paling, W.	Westwood, J.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Potts, John S.	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Groves, T.	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Whiteley, W.
Grundy, T. W.	Riley, Ben	Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Ritson, J.	Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark. N.)	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Rose, Frank H.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Salter, Dr. Alfred	Windsor, Walter
Hardie, George D.	Scrymgeour, E.	Wright, W.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Scurr, John	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hayday, Arthur	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Hayes, John Henry	Shiels, Dr. Drummond	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Smillie, Robert	Charles Edwards.
Hirst, G. H.	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 12, line 14, to leave out the word "either," and to insert instead thereof the words by reference to rateable value and also, if rent is paid. This is really a drafting Amendment. The purpuse of the Clause is shown in the proviso which follows, which shows that there are two conditions which must be observed in order to enable compounding to be directed, namely, that the rent must by collected at less than quarterly intervals, and that the rateable value of the property must not exceed £13. In Sub-section (1) it is stated that these two are alternatives, and the result of my Amendment is to make it clear that in the Sub-section, as well as in the proviso, both conditions have to be observed.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 12, leave out from the word "collected "in line 15 to the word "the" in line 17.—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 12, line 20, after the word "which," to insert the words "becomes payable or."

This is merely a drafting Amendment, intended to bring this paragraph into line with the one which follows.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 12, line 32, to leave out the word "allow," and to insert instead thereof the word "make."

This is in order that the phrase may be 'make an allowance instead of allow an abatement. The object, in this case also, is to bring the wording into line with what follows in the subsequent paragraph.

Amendment agreed to.

Captain BOURNE

I beg to move, in page 12, line 33, to leave out the word "such," and to insert instead thereof the words the expiration of one-half of the period in respect of which the rate is made (or, if the rate is payable by instalments, one-halt of the period in respect of which the instalment is payable) or, such later. I desire to apologise to the House for the fact that I am moving this Amendment in a somewhat different form from that in which it appears on the Order Paper, the Amendment as it stands on the Order Paper being to leave out from the word "rate," in line 33, to the word "an," in line 34, and to insert instead thereof the words on or before such date, or dates (not being earlier than two months before the expiration of the period in respect of which the rate is made) as may be specified by the rating authority in the direction or if no date or dates are specified before the expiration of the period in respect of which the rate is made. The object is in both cases the same, namely, to prevent this abatement being affected by a resolution on the part of the local authority decreeing a date immediately after the making of the rate, by which the owner must pay if he is to gain it. I am particularly interested in the case of the smaller owners of house property, a large part of whose income is, derived from rents. I think it is only fair that they should have some time in which to collect both rent and rates before they are compelled to make a lump-sum payment to the local authority. When I originally drafted my Amendment, I was under the impression that all rates were payable in two half-yearly instalments, but I have since been informed that in certain cases the rates are payable once a year only, and in others quarterly. To meet that difficulty I have had to bring forward this Amendment in a different form from that on the Paper. I sincerely hope the House will accept the Amendment, because I feel that it will be a considerable measure of justice to small owners of house property, and, as this part of the Clause is compulsory, it will not be of any disadvantage to the local authority.

Colonel Sir GEORGE COURTHOPE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. SCURR

I desire to make, a very emphatic protest against an Amendment of this character being moved in this manner. The hon. and gallant Member's Amendment has been on the Paper for some days, and we have been able to study it and cither to agree or to disagree with it. Now we have, if I may use the phrase, flung at us a long series of words, and, really, we are unable to appreciate what is the exact meaning of this Amendment. It may be a good Amendment; it may be one which we would desire to support, but we are in the position at the present moment of being absolutely in the dark, and I want to protest emphatically against the House being treated in this way. There has been plenty of time for an Amendment of this character to be tabled, so that we might be able to consider it in all its details.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I have some sympathy with the hon. Member's pro test, because I know how difficult it is to follow words when they are read out for the first time. Perhaps I must take some of the blame from my hon. and gallant Friend in this matter, because the defect in his Amendment was pointed out to him by my Department, and it was my original intention to call attention to the fact that he had lost sight of the, point that sometimes rates are payable quarterly, and to find words which might be inserted in another place. But then, it seemed to me, that as he had already found the words it would, perhaps, be more convenient to put them in at once instead of waiting for them to be put in in another place, and I advised, there fore, that the words should be submitted to the House. I think that, if I may just read the words to the House as they will appear, they will be seen to be fairly clear, although, as I have said, I know that it is not easy to follow words which are only read and not printed.

This is what the rating authority is to do: It is to make to any owner who, being so rated, pays the amount due by him in respect of the rate before the expiration of one-half of the period in respect of which the rate, if made (or, if the rate is payable by instalments, one-half of the period in respect of which the instalment is payable), or such Inter date or dates as may be specified in the Resolution. I think that is a reasonable Amendment, and I recommend the House to accept it.

Mr. HARDIE

In a case such as is before the House now, when a fresh Amendment is brought in, is it within the right of any hon. Member to ask a question for further information of the Member who moves it?

Captain BENN

I think we have some cause for complaint against the right hon. Gentleman that he not only discusses this privately with his supporters —he is entitled to do that—but agrees to concessions to his own supporters. There is plenty of opportunity to put the notice down on the Paper so that we may know what is going to be moved. It is impossible for anyone to follow Amendments which are read suddenly like this, even after explanation by the Mover and the Minister. I think this protest should be registered against the way the Bill is being forced through the House.

Mr. GUEST

Is not the effect of the Amendment going to be to require the spending authority to carry balances in hand as under the old system? At present rates are generally payable on demand. They are not always paid on demand, but throughout the half-year rates are paid by different persons who are liable. If you pass a Clause like this, the tendency will be for no rates to be paid at all until after the period has gone, and the spending authorities must carry forward, at the end of each quarter, a very large balance.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 12, line 34, leave out the word "abatement," and insert instead thereof the word "allowance."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

Mr. SCURR

I beg to move, in page 12, line 35, to leave out the word "ten," and to insert instead thereof the word "five."

The object of the Clause, as I understand it, is that when the owner is rated he will receive an allowance of 10 per cent., and the object of the Amendment is to reduce that to 5 per cent. In London an allowance is made of something just over 5 per cent. in regard to the management of the whole of the property- looking after it, taking care of it,

seeing that it is in a proper state of repair, and so on—yet under this Clause, simply because the owner is rated instead of the occupier, it proposes to give him 10 per cent. I think that is absolutely unfair in respect to the rest of the ratepayers. We have to remember the difference between a rate and a tax. A taxis simply the levying of a certain figure, and the amount that may be collected is uncertain. It may be move or less than the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipates. A rate is for a certain definite sum which has to be obtained from the body of ratepayers, and if one particular body of ratepayers receives an advantage, other bodies of ratepayers suffer. Under this proposal certain landlords are going to get a very considerable advantage, namely 10 per cent., and we contend that that is a gross injustice to the rest of the ratepayers. If any sum at all is given, 5 per cent. is certainly sufficient.

Mr. HARDIE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I can only repeat what I said on the general discussion on the Clause, that there can be no possible injustice or hardship in accepting this figure, because it is not a figure which is compulsory. It is in the discretion of the local authorities themselves whether they utilise the powers of the Clause or not. If they think 10 per cent., which is very much lower than the rate now existing, is too high, all they have to do is not to pass the Resolution directing the owners to be rated.

Question put, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Bill."

The, House divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 144.

Division No. 397.]	AYES.	[5.55 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Bennett, A. J.	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Albery, Irving James	Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Brown, Brig. Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Berry, Sir George	Buckingham, Sir H.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Bethell, A.	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Applin, Colonel R, V. K.	Betterton, Henry B.	Bullock, Captain M.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Burman, J. B.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Burton, Colonel H. W.
Atholl, Duchess of	Blades, Sir George Rowland	Butt, Sir Alfred
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Blundell, F. N.	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Campbell, E. T.
Balniel, Lord	Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Brass, Captain W.	Cecil, Rt. Hon Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Brassey, Sir Leonard	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Briscoe, Richard George	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Charters, Brigadier-General J.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Chilcott, Sir Warden
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Christie, J. A.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer	Henderson, Lieut.-Col V. L. (Bootle)	Power, Sir John Cecil
Clarry, Reginald George	Honeage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Clayton, G. C.	Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Preston, William
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hilton, Cecil	Radford, E. A.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Raine, W.
Corkerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Ramsden, E.
Cohen, Major J. Brunei	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Holland, Sir Arthur	Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Holt, Captain H. P.	Rentoul, G. S.
Couper, J. B.	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Rice, Sir Frederick
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)	Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Crock, C. W.	Hume, Sir G. H.	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Crooke J. Smedley (Deritend)	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Hurd, Percy A.	Rye, F. G.
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Hurt, Gerald B.	Salmon, Major I.
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Samuel, A M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Dalkeith, Earl of	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Daziel Sir Davison	Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Davidson Major-General Sir J. H.	Jacob, A. E.	Sandon, Lord
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Jephcott, A. R.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Savery, S. S.
	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Sheffield, sir Berkeley
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Shepperson, E. W.
Drewe, C.	Lamb, J. Q.	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Duckworth, John	Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Skelton, A. N.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Elveden, Viscount	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
England, Colonel A.	Looker, Herbert William	Smithers, Waldron
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Lougher, L.	Sport, Sir Alexander
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Everard, W. Lindsay	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Stanley, Hon. D. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Lumley, L. R.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Storry Deans, R.
Fermoy, Lord	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Fielden, E. B.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Finsburgh, S.	Macintyre, Ian	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Fleming, D. P.	McLean, Major A.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Macmillan, Captain H.	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Foster, Sir Harry S.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Fraser, Captain Ian	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Malone, Major P. B.	Tinne, J. A.
Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Galbraith J. F. W.	Margesson, Captain D.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Ganzoni, Sir John.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Waddington, R.
Gates, Percy.	Meller, R. J.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	Meyer, Sir Frank	Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Gee, Captain R.	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Warrender, Sir Victor
Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Moles, Thomas	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Goff, Sir Park	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Grace, John	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Watts, Dr. T.
Grant, J. A.	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Wells, S. R.
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Gretton, Colonel John	Nelson, Sir Frank	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple
Grotrian, H. Brent.	Neville, R. J.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A (Brecon & Rad.)	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hammersley, S. S.	Nuttall, Ellis	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hanbury, C.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Wise, Sir Fredric
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Wolmer, Viscount
Harland, A.	Penny, Frederick George	Womersley, W. J.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Harney, E. A.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Harrison, G. J. C.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Hartington, Marquess of	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Philipson, Mabel	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Haslam, Henry C.	Pielou, D. P.
Hawke, John Anthony	Pilcher, G.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Headiam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Pilditch, Sir Philip	Lord Stanley and Major Cope.

NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Grundy, T. W.	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Scrymgeour, E.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Scurr, John
Attlee, Clement Richard	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Baker, Waller	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hardie, George D.	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Barnes, A.	Harris, Percy A.	Smillie, Robert
Barr, J.	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Batey, Joseph	Hayday, Arthur	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Hayes, John Henry	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Snell, Harry
Briant, Frank	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Broad, F. A.	Hirst, G. H.
Bromfield, William	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
		Stamford, T. W.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Cape, Thomas	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Taylor, R. A.
Charleton. H. C.	Kelly, W. T.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Clowes, S.	Kennedy, T.	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbre-. W.)
Cluse, W. S.	Kenworthy. Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.	Lansbury, George	Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaistow)
		Thurtle, E.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)	Lawson, John James	Tinker, John Joseph
Compton, Joseph	Lee, F.	Townend, A. E.
Connolly, M.	Lindley, F. W.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cove, W. G.	Lowth, T.	Varely, Frank B.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lunn, William	Viant, S. P.
Crawfurd, H. E.	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Dalton, Hugh	Mackinder, W.	Warne, G. H.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	MacLaren, Andrew	Watson, W. M. (Duntermline)
Davies, Ellis, Denbigh, Denbigh)	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Day, Colonel Harry	March, S.
Dennison, R.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duncan, C.	Montague, Frederick	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Dunnico, H.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Westwood, J.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Murnin, H.	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Naylor, T. E.	Whiteley, W.
Fenby, T. D.	Oliver, George Harold	Wiggins, William Martin
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.	Owen, Major G.	Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Forrest, W.	Palln, John Henry	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Paling, W.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Gibbins, Joseph	Potts, John S.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Gosling, Harry	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Windsor, Walter
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Richardson, n. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Wright, W.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Ceat.)	Riley, Ben	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Greenall, T.	Ritson, J.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Rose, Frank H.	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Allen
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Saklatvala, Shapurji	Parkinson.
Groves. T.

Mr. RILEY

I beg to mover, in page 13, line 11, to leave out the word "fifteen" and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."

6.0 P.M.

The Clause provides for an arrangement to be made to allow property-owners 15 per cent. discount, provided the property-owner undertakes to pay the rates on occupied and unoccupied property. Our answer to that is that there is no unoccupied house property today Therefore, the owner is under no risk, or very

small risk, in regard to losing on such an arrangement at the present time. We submit that 10 per cent. would be an adequate amount to cover all the risk which the owner is likely to incur at the present time.

Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN

I beg to second the Amendment.

Question put. "That the word 'fifteen' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 143.

Division No. 398]	AYES.	[6.6 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Albery, Irving James	Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Bennett, A. J.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Balniel, Lord	Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Berry, Sir George
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Bethell, A.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Betterton, Henry B.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Astor, Viscountess	Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Moles, Thomas
Blundell, F. N.	Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Goff, Sir Park	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Brass, Captain W.	Grace, John	Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Grant, J. A.	Nelson, Sir Frank
Briscoe, Richard George	Greene, W. P, Crawford	Neville, R. J.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Gretton, Colonel John	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Grotrian, H. Brent	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Gunston, Captain D. W.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Brown, Brig-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Buckingham, Sir H.	Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Nuttall, Ellis
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Bullock, Captain M.	Hammersley, S. S.	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan	Hanbury, C.	Pennefather, Sir John
Burman, J. B.	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Penny, Frederick George
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Harland, A.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Butt, Sir Alfred	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Harney, E. A.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Campbell, E. T.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Philipson, Mabel
Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Hartington, Marquess of	Pielou, D. P.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Pilcher, G.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Haslam, Henry C.	Pilditch, Sir Philip
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm, W.)	Hawke, John Anthony	Power, Sir John Cecil
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Preston, William
Chilcott, Sir Warden	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Radford, E. A.
Christie, J. A.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Raine, W.
Clarry, Reginald George	Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Ramsden, E.
Clayton, G. C.	Hilton, Cecil	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Rentoul, G. S.
Cohen, Major J Brunei	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Holland, Sir Arthur	Rice, Sir Frederick
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Holt, Captain H. P.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Couper, J. B.	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col Sir George L.	Howard, Captain Hon Donald	Ruggles-Crise, Major E. A.
Craig, Capt Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Carig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Hume, Sir G. H.	Rye, F. G.
Crook, C. W.	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Salmon, Major I.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Hurd, Percy A.	Samuel, A. M. (surrey, Farnham)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Hurst, Gerald B.	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Hutchison. G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Dalkeith, Earl of	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Sandon, Lord
Dalziel, Sir Davison	Jacob, A. E.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Jephcott, A. R.	Savery, S. S.
Davidson, Major General Sir J. H.	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Shepperson, E. W.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	Lamb, J. Q.	Skelton, A. N.
Drew, C.	Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Duckworth, John	Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Smithers, Waldron
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Locker Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Elliot Captain Walter E.	Looker, Herbert William	Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Elveden Viscount	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Sprot, Sir Alexander
England, Colonel A.	Lougher, L.	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Lumley, L. R.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Everard, W. Lindsay	MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Storry Deans, R.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Fermoy, Lord	Macintyre, Ian	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Fielden, E. B.	McLean, Major A.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Finburgh, S.	Macmillan, Captain H.	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Fleming, D. P.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Mac Robert, Alexander M.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Malone, Major P. B.	Tinne, J. A.
Fraser, Captain Ian	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Margesson, Captain D.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Waddington, R.
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Meller, R. J.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Ganzoni, Sir John.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Gates, Percy	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Warrender, Sir Victor
Gee, Captain R.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Watts, Dr. T.	Winby, Colonel L. P.	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Wells, S. R.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple	Wise, Sir Fredric
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)	Wolmer, Viscount	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)	Womersley, W. J.	Captain Hacking and Major Cope.
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Grundy, T. W.	Rose, Frank H.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Saklatvala, Shapurji
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Attlee, Clement Richard	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Scrymgeour, E.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Scurr, John
Baker, Walter	Hardie, George D.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Harris, Percy A.	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barnes, A.	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Barr, J.	Hastings, Sir Patrick	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Batey, Joseph	Hayday, Arthur	Smillie, Robert
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Hayes, John Henry	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Briant, Frank	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Broad, F. A.	Hirst, G. H.	Snell, Harry
Bromfield, William	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Buchanan, G.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stamford, T. W.
Cape, Thomas	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Stephen, Campbell
Charleton, H. C.	Kelly, W. T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Clowes, S.	Kennedy, T.	Taylor, R. A.
Cluse, W. S.	Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.	Lansbury, George	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)	Lawson, John James	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Compton, Joseph	Lee, F.	Thurtle, E.
Connolly, M.	Lindley, F. W.	Tinker, John Joseph
Cove, W. G.	Lowth, T.	Townend, A. E.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lunn, William	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Crawfurd, H. E.	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)	Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, Hugh	Mackinder, W.	Viant, S. P.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	MacLaren, Andrew	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)	Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline)
Day, Colonel Harry	March, S.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dennison, R.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duncan, C.	Montague, Frederick	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Dunnico, H.	Morris, R. H.	Westwood, J.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Fenby, T. D.	Murnin, H.	Whiteley, W.
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.	Naylor, T. E.	Wiggins, William Martin
Forrest, W.	Oliver, George Harold	Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Owen, Major G.	Williams, T (York, Don Valley)
Gibbins, Joseph	Palin, John Henry	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Gosling, Harry	Paling, W.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Windsor, Walter
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Potts, John S.	Wright, W.
Greenall, T.	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Riley, Ben	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Ritson, J.	Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles
Groves, T.	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)	Edwards.

Mr. SCURR

I beg to move, in page 13, line 12, to leave out the words "seven and one-half," and to insert instead thereof the word "five."

Under the proposal in the Bill, 7½ per cent. is to be paid to the owner who so long as the hereditament is occupied pays the rates chargeable in respect thereof, while under paragraph (c) only 5 per cent. is paid to the owner who will collect the rents from the occupier on behalf of the authority. It seems to me that the owner referred to in paragraph (b) is not put to any great trouble in the matter, whereas in the case of the owner referred to in paragraph (c) there may be con- siderable trouble in doing the work of collecting on behalf of the authority. Yet in the former case the owner gets 7½ per cent. and in the latter case 5 per cent. This seems to me to be an instance of putting the cart before the horse, and I think that the amount should be 5 per cent. in the case of owners covered by paragraph (b) and 7½ per cent. in the case of those covered by paragraph (c).

Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN

I beg to second the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words 'seven and one-half' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 307; Noes, 136.

Division No. 399.]	AYES.	[6.17 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Albery, Irving James	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Jacob, A. E.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Jephcott, A. R.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Drewe, C.	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Astor, Viscountess	Duckworth, John	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	King, Captain Henry Douglas
Balniel, Lord	Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Lamb, J. Q.
Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Elveden, Viscount	Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	England, Colonel A.	Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Looker, Herbert William
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Lord, Walter Greaves-
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Everard, W. Lindsay	Lougher, L.
Bennett, A. J.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Lowe, Sir Francis William
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Berry, Sir George	Fermoy, Lord	Lumley, L. R.
Bethell, A.	Fielden, E. B.	MacAndrew, Charles Glen
Betterton, Henry R.	Finburgh, S.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Fleming, D. P.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Macintyre, Ian
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Foster, Sir Harry S.	McLean, Major A.
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Macmillan, Captain H.
Blundell, F. N.	Fraser, Captain Ian	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Frece, Sir Walter de	MacRobert, Alexander M.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony	Malone, Major P. B.
Brass, Captain W.	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Ganzoni, Sir John.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Gates, Percy.	Meller, R. J.
Briscoe, Richard George	Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	Meyer, Sir Frank
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Gee, Captain R.	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Moles, Thomas
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Goff, Sir Park	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Grace, John	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Grant, J. A.	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Bullock, Captain M.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Burman, J. B.	Gretton, Colonel John	Nelson, Sir Frank
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Grotrian, H. Brent.	Neville. R. J.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Gunston, Captain D. W.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Butt, Sir Alfred	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Caine Gordon Hall	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Campbell, E. T.	Hammersley, S. S.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Cassels, J. D.	Hanbury, C	Nuttall, Ellis
Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester City)	Harland, A.	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Harmsworth Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Penny, Frederick George
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm, W.)	Harney, E. A.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Harrison, G. J. C.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hartington, Marquess of	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Chilcott, Sir Warden	Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Philipson, Mabel
Christie, J. A.	Haslam, Henry C.	Pielou, D. P.
	Hawke, John Anthony	Pilcher, G.
Carry, Reginald George	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Pilditch, Sir Philip
Clayton, G. C.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Power, Sir John Cecil
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Preston, William
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Radford, E. A.
Cohen, Major J. Brunei	Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)	Raine, W.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Hilton, Cecil	Ramsden, E.
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.	Reid Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cope, Major William	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Reid D. D. (County Down)
Couper, J. B.	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Rentoul, G S.
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Holland, Sir Arthur	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.	Holt, Captain H. P.	Rice, Sir Frederick
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Crook, C. W.	Howard, Capt. Hon. D, (Cumb., N.)	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Hume, Sir G. H.	Rye, F. G.
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Salmon, Major I.
Dalkeith, Earl of	Hurd, Percy A.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Dalziel, Sir Davison	Hurst, Gerald B.	Sandeman, A. Stewart

Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Storry Deans, R.	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Sanderson, Sir Frank	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Sandon, Lord	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)	Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Savery, S. S.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Shepperson, E. W.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)	Tinne, J. A.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Skelton, A. N.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement	Wolmer, Viscount
Smith, K. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.	Womersley, W. J.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.	Waddington, R.	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Smithers, Waldron	Wallace, Captain D. E.	Wood. E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston on-Hull)	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Spender Clay, Colonel H.	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Sprot, Sir Alexander	Warrender, Sir Victor	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)	Watts, Dr. T.	Captain Hacking and Captain
Steel, Major Samuel Strang	Wells, S. R.	Margesson.

NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Scurr, John
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Hardie, George D.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Attlee, Clement Richard	Hastings, Sir Patrick	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Hayday, Arthur	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Baker, Walter	Hayes, John Henry	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Smillie, Robert
Barnes, A.	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Barr, J.	Hirst, P. H.	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Batey, Joseph	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Hudson. J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snell, Harry
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Briant, Frank	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Broad, F. A.	Kelly, W. T.	Stamford, T. W.
Bromfield, William	Kennedy, T.	Stephen, Campbell
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Buchanan, G.	Lansbury, George	Taylor, R. A.
Cape, Thomas	Lawson, John James	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Charleton, H. C.	Lee, F.	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Clowes, S.	Lindley, F. W.	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Cluse, W. S.	Lowth, T.	Thurtle, E.
Clynes, Rt. Hon John R.	Lunn, William	Tinker, John Joseph
Connolly, M.	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Abernvon)	Townend, A. E.
Cove, W. G.	Mackinder, W.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	MacLaren, Andrew	Varley, Frank B.
Crawfurd, H. E.	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Viant, S. P.
Dalton, Hugh	March, S.	Wallhead, Richard C.
Davies, Evan (Ehbw Vale)	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Montague, Frederick	Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline)
Day, Colonel Harry	Morris, R. H.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dennison, H.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duncan, C.	Murnin, H.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Fenby, T. D.	Naylor. T. E.	Westwood, J.
Forrest, W.	Oliver, George Harold	Whiteley, W.
Gibbins, Joseph	Owen, Major G.	Wiggins, William Martin
Gosling, Harry	Palin, John Henry	Williams David (Swansea, E.)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Paling, W.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Wilson, C. K. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenall, T.	Potts, John S.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Rees. Sir Beddoe	Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Wright, W.
Griffiths T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Riley, Ben	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Groves T.	Ritson, J.
Grundy, T. W.	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Saklatvala, Shapurji	Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Salter, Dr. Alfred	Edwards.
Hall, F (York, W. R., Normanton)	Scrymgeour, E.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 13, line 14, at the end, to insert the words An allowance made under this subsection to an owner who is rated under the preceding sub-section shall be deemed to be in lieu of the allowance to be made under that sub-section. It has been represented by some people that as the Bill stands it might be possible for the owner under Sub-section (1) of this Clause to get the 10 per cent. provided for in that Sub-section, and, when he enters into an agreement with the local authority under Sub-section (2), to get another 15 per cent., making 25 per cent. in all. The object of this Amendment is to make clear that the allowance under the second Sub-section is not to be taken as an addition to the allowance under the first Sub-section.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 13, line 40, to leave out from the word "shall" to the first word "be" in page 14, line 1.

This Amendment and the three Amendments which follow must be taken together, and when so taken it will be found that they are simply drafting Amendments merely to improve the wording of the Clause.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I think that is this case the right hon. Gentleman should read out the Clause as it will stand after these Amendments are made. It is impossible to follow these Amendments when we go through them in this fashion, and the light hon. Gentleman, in common decency, ought to read out the new wording of the Clause so that we may be certain of its sense.

Amendment agreed to

Further Amendments made: In page 14, line 2. leave out the word "chargeable" and insert instead thereof the word "due."

In line 3, after the word "collected," insert the words "by him in respect of rent and rates."

In line 4, after the word "due," insert the words "in respect thereof."—(Mr. Chamberlain.)

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 14, line 4, at the end, to insert the words: Unless the undertaking by the owner to collect rates expressly so provides, the expression 'rates due' shall not, for the purposes of the provisions of this Section relating to an undertaking by an owner to collect rates, include rates accruing due before the date on which the undertaking comes into operation, nor for the purposes of this Sub section shall account be taken of rent which accrued due before that date. This is more than a drafting Amendment. The words which we have just passed provide that where an owner who is liable to both rent and rates to the Rating Authority has collected something either more or less than the amount due for a particular period the amount calculated as rates shall bear a proper pro portion to the aggregate amount that he has collected. But we have now to consider the case where an owner has only just entered into an agreement, and on entering into it there may be arrears of rates or rent, or both. The object of the Amendment is to provide that any arrears which are due before an undertaking was entered into by the owner to pay the rates, shall be excluded from this proportionate arrangement, and that the part which we have just passed will apply only where the undertaking has already been in force.

Mr. ATTLEE

I want to be quite clear about this Amendment. I understand that it is contemplating a condition where there are certain rates due to the Council or possibly where certain rents are due to the owner. This matter of the proportionate amount is not to apply to both? It does not, mean that if the owner has a large amount of rent owing to him, and he collects all that, it will be taken into account in connection with the amount of rates he has to pay? It docs not mean, I presume. that he will escape any rates?

Mr. WOMERSLKY

How will this apply in the case of an authority that has had a direct rating system in operation and then decides to adopt this system? Will the property owner be responsible for the arrears owing on that property? Have I made that clear?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

No.

Mr. WOMERSLEY

In my own town we have direct rating in operation. Many of the tenants are owing large sums in arrears to the rating authority. If the authority in that town decides to adopt this system, can the authority make the owner of the property responsible for the arrears that the tenant owes.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

No.

Mr. WOMERSLEY

They have that impression in my town. I hope that the Clause makes the- point clear.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir K. WOOD

I beg to move, in page 14, line 26, to leave out the words "and twelve,'' and to insert instead thereof the words "twelve and nineteen."

It is intended, where owners are rated instead of the occupiers, that the name of the occupiers should be entered in the ratebook.

Amendment agreed to.

Captain WEDGWOOD BENN

I beg to move, in page 14, line 40, to leave out the words, "be treated as being," and to insert instead thereof the words "have the same rights as."

My hon. and gallant Friend (Major Crawfurd), in whose name this Amendment appears, has assumed that the words he wishes to leave out refer to the owner and his right of appeal. What my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind is that the words might exclude the occupier from having rights as to appeal. There fore, he wishes to have inserted other words which will preserve the right of the occupier to have an appeal as well as the owner.

Mr. P. HARRIS

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

I quite agree with the proposition that has been put forward, and it is what is expressed in the Clause. We are a little doubtful, however, about the words in the suggested Amendment. We shall endeavour between now and the appearance of the Bill in another place to find other words to meet the point.

Captain BENN

I am much obliged.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. Rye:— In page 14, line 42, at the end, to insert the words Any owner who, in consequence of such direction as aforesaid, shall have paid any rates which but for such direction would have been payable by the tenant of the hereditament to which the rates applied in pursuance of a contract entered into between the tenant and the landlord of the hereditament shall be entitled to enforce payment of all amounts so paid as aforesaid either by means of distress as though the same were rent in arrear due from the tenant to the landlord or by action against the tenant for the recovery of the same as a debt due from the tenant to the landlord, and the landlord shall be entitled to employ either or both of such means of recovering payment of all rates so paid by him as aforesaid, provided that no distress or action to recover the amounts so paid as aforesaid shall be levied or commenced as the case may be until after the expiration of fourteen days from the ser vice of a notice in writing by the landlord to the tenant stating the amount of the rates paid by the landlord, and also stating that unless the same are paid to the landlord within fourteen days of the receipt of the notice the landlord would become entitled to recover payment from the tenant either by means of distress as though the amount due to the landlord were rent in arrear or by action for recovery of the said amount as a debt owing from the tenant to the landlord. For the purpose of this Section any notice served thereunder shall be deemed to have been duly served on the tenant if left on the demised hereditament for the tenant or if sent by registered letter addressed to him at such hereditament.

Mr. RYE

I do not wish to move this Amendment, but I would like to move one which stood in my name on the Amendment Paper yesterday, as follows: In page 12, line 35, at the end to add the words, Any owner who in consequence of such direction as aforesaid shall have paid any rate which but for this Section would have been payable as between the owner and the occupier by the occupier in pursuance of any contract made between such owner and occupier shall be entitled to be reimbursed by the occupier the amount so paid. My reason for putting down this Amendment is that I am not certain that any landlord who is called upon to pay rates in consequence of the Resolution and direction passed by the Rating Authority under Clause 11, would be entitled to claim reimbursement from his tenant who has undertaken, as between himself and the landlord, to pay the rates and who is the rated occupier. I raised this point in Committee and was then told by the learned Solicitor-General that he thought the right-over of reimbursement was implied and went as a matter of course. But, I suggest that the matter is not free from doubt and that it ought not to be left in a state of uncertainty. It certainly ought not to be left in such a state of uncertainty that recourse may have to be made to the Courts to settle the question. The learned Solicitor-General was not prepared to go so far as to say that beyond all shadow of doubt his view was right. For that reason I move the Amendment. Obviously if a tenant has, entered into a contract to pay rent and rates it would be inequitable that that tenant should avoid the repayment of the amount which, in consequence of this Clause, would have to be paid by the landlord. I think it possible that, with out this Amendment, the tenant could say to the landlord when the latter asked for reimbursement, "No, I have nothing to pay you. It is true that I covenanted to pay rates, and I would have paid but for the action of the rating authority under Clause 11. It may be grossly immoral of me to adopt that attitude, but between myself and a person who does not commend himself to right hon. Gentlemen of the Labour party—the landlord—I am not prepared to pay."

Mr. SPEAKER

I am doubtful as to the exact place in which the Amendment should come. The Amendment on the Paper is to come in page 14, line 42.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip)

The Amendment ought to come in page 14, line 42, at the end of Sub-section (8).

Mr. RYE

I beg to move, in page 14, line 42, at the end, to insert the words Any owner who in consequence of such direction as aforesaid shall have paid any rate which but for this Section would have been, payable as between the owner and the occupier by the occupier in pursuance of any contract made between such owner and occupier shall be entitled to be reimbursed by the occupier the amount so paid.

Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. ATTLEE

It is very inconvenient to have this chopping and changing. We have an innocent Amendment put forward now, but I gather that it is really of the same substance as the extraordinarily long Amendment, full of all sorts of pains and penalties, that is on the Paper before us and is not now being moved. I am rather suspicious. I cannot decide whether the Amendment moved is laying down some thing entirely new in the legal position as between landlord and tenant, or whether it is supposed to be declaratory of the law as it now exists in order to make it perfectly plain. It docs not seem to me, in the first place, that there ought to be any possibility of this arising, because it is very unsual in a short tenancy to have agreements of this sort. Secondly, it is not at all clear as to whether in this phrase, where the owner is directed by the local authority to pay rates at 10 per cent, abatement, the tenant has then to be responsible to him for the whole of the rates.

I do not know whether the Government propose to accept this Amendment On this Bill the House ought to have a little more assistance from the Law Officers. We have these Clauses and Amendments of various sorts put down, varied and sometimes put in one place and sometimes in another. Sometimes the phraseology has to be varied on the Floor of the House, apparently because the Government have not taken the trouble to put down a phrase of their own. This Amendment may or may not be desirable, but if it is desirable, sufficient warning was given to the Government because it has now been on the Order Paper in two separate forms. Could not we have a proper form of this Amendment put down in the right place. It seems to me that as this Bill goes forward the portion of it which is really the child of the Minister grows less and less and that it is becoming covered with various accretions supplied by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite until we cannot find where we are. It is a case for a full explanation from the Law Officers of the Crown.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

I am very glad to hear that the hon. Gentle man desires the assistance of the Law Officers, though I think on this occasion the mover of the Amendment has said all that is necessary. The Amendment which my hon. Friend put on the Paper only last night was an Amendment as to which the Government have no power. I have yet to learn that the Government have any right to prevent any hon. Member putting an Amendment on Paper.

Mr. ATTLEE

The Amendment which we are now discussing was on the Paper some time previously.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

That is quite true, but the right time for the Government to express an opinion on an Amendment is when that Amendment is called by Mr. Speaker and is discussed in the House. At the earliest possible moment I desire to say the Government think this Amendment—although on the view which I take it is not strictly necessary—is one which may just possibly be desirable in order to avoid any doubt or ambiguity. In that spirit we propose to accept the Amendment which was formerly on the Paper, and which was taken off, I understand by some inadvertence, and replaced by the longer and, I think, inferior one which stood on the Order Paper to-day.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I do not think the lecture delivered by the Solicitor-General to the hon. Member for Lime-house (Mr. Attlee) was either required or helpful. We want to know whether this Amendment which has been on the Paper for the best part of a week, which I presume has been the subject of more or less informal discussion between the Minister and his 200 supporters who attended the recent meeting, has been considered by the Government in order that they may tell us whether it is declaratory of the law or whether it makes a change in the law. In Committee we were accustomed to hearing the hon. Member for Loughbrough (Mr. Rye) who has made more changes in the wording of this Bill than the rest of the House put together. I am not saying that all the changes he made were very profound, and I want to know if this is merely another Amendment of the Loughborough type, which makes a change in the wording but makes no other difference. What we suspect is that this Amendment involves an additional payment from the occupier. Is it the case that where occupier and owner enter into a contract this addition to the Clause permits the owner to recover the full amount of the rates which should have been paid by the occupier, although the owner himself only pays the rate less 10 per cent.?

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

I have already said that in my opinion the pro posed Amendment does not affect the law as it stands to-day. I think it is purely declaratory.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Much as I ad mire the legal acumen of the Solicitor-General I am not without experience of the acumen of the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye) and I would like to be satisfied that this proposal does not require the occupier to pay to the owner a larger sum than the owner actually pays to the local authority.

Mr. RYE

The answer clearly is that the words of the Amendment are "shall be entitled to be reimbursed…the amount so paid," and the amount so paid must obviously be the rate less the discount of 10 per cent.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

With that I am quite satisfied. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] It is just as well that hon. Members should try to understand these complicated Clauses. The other question asked by the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) to which we have had no answer is how this Clause can possibly be necessary. Compounding is only to take place in the case of property held on less than quarterly tenure. Clause 11 deals with property "not so defined as to include any hereditament the rent of which is collected at quarterly or any longer intervals." I cannot imagine any lease or contract between occupier and owner being drawn up under which the rent would be paid at less than quarterly intervals and ipso facto you would not be dealing with this class of property in Clause 11 and this Amendment would be unnecessary.

Amendment agreed to.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to move, in page 15, line 13, at the end to insert the words (10) For the purposes of this Section the expression "owner," in relation to a hereditament means the person who is, or if the hereditaments were occupied would be, en titled to receive the rent payable in respect thereof, or where the hereditament is occupied free of rent the person by whose per mission it is so occupied, and does not include an owner who is in occupation thereof. I hope the House will, without any difficulty, accept the first part of this Amendment. Under the Clause as it now stands the rating authority can make the owner pay rates on any hereditament except agricultural land. In the country, as a rule, farm cottages are let with the farm and the owner has nothing to say to the choice of the tenants, and does not know when there are changes of tenancy, and the farmer can keep a house vacant if ho wishes. If the owner had to collect, it would be necessary for him to employ a man to go over a large scattered property and collect rents from various cottages, which would appear to be very hard. The practice now is for the farmer to let his cottage to his workmen at a rent which includes rates, and the farmer deducts rents and rates from the man's wages. The Amendment means that this would be continued and that the farmer would get the benefit of any rebate, while the man would not suffer in any way and a great deal of trouble would be saved. The concluding words of the Amendment have been suggested in the hope of clearing up the situation as regards the owner-occupier. I under stand the Minister is going to make a statement on that subject, and I hope he will be able to do something to improve the position of the owner-occupier.

Mr. SOMERVILLE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

So far as the first part of this Amendment is concerned I think it is reasonable and I suggest that it should be accepted. With regard to the last few words the effect of these will be to exclude the owner-occupier from the benefit of the compounding allowance. On looking carefully at the Clause I see no operative effect in these words because I think he is already excluded. Sub-sections (1) and (2) pro vide as a condition of the application of the compounding allowance that rents shall be payable and collectable at least within quarterly intervals. In the case of the occupier-owner there is no rent; therefore that condition could not be com plied with and it does not seem to me that the Clause as it stand; would include the occupier-owner. Something in the nature of an appeal has been addressed to me by some of my hon. Friends behind me and by hon. Members opposite to do something for the owner-occupier. I con fess my sympathies have been rather strongly drawn towards the owner-occupier by a fact which has only come to my knowledge since the Bill came from Committee. I understand that where a local authority owns houses and receives or gives to itself an abatement or allowance as the owner responsible for the rates, it passes that allowance on to the tenant by means of a reduction in the rent. I find, therefore, that under the Clause as it stands a municipal authority owning working class houses would be in a position to pass on to the tenant the abatement of 10 per cent. which it would receive as an owner liable to pay rates and, therefore, the man who is tenant of the local authority will be to the extent of that allowance better off than the man who has saved enough money or is saving enough money to buy a house from the same authority. That seems to be loading the dice against the owner-occupier, and I think the existence of that difference establishes a strong claim that we should do something for him. It is obviously impossible on the spur of the moment to devise words which would carry out the wishes ex pressed from both sides of the House, but I give an undertaking that I will look into this matter with the most sympathetic desire to meet the points which have been made, and, if it is possible, I will see that some words are inserted in another place which may deal with the case.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I am sure the House will be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman can discover words to meet the case of the owner-occupier. I think we may congratulate hon. Members who have been active in this matter on having achieved a substantial measure of justice for the owner-occupier. Now that we have passed the major part of Clause 11, in which we are giving these enormously and unnecessarily large rebates to owners of this class of property, it is all the more necessary that we should do justice to the owner-occupier and allow him to have the advantage arising from paying the rates himself. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to introduce words dealing with this matter and have them passed in another place, and that we may see them, before the close of the Session, as an Amendment in this Bill.

Mr. SPEAKER

Does the hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Adand-Troyte) press his Amendment?

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I press the first part, but I do not wish to press the concluding words.

Mr. SPEAKER

Does the reply of the Minister apply to the whole Amendment?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

No, Sir. I in tended only to suggest that the hon. and gallant Member should leave out the concluding words of the Amendment beginning "and does not include." It will be necessary to withdraw the Amendment and move it again in the necessary form.

7.0 P.M.

Sir PATRICK HASTINGS

Before that is done, may I call the Minister's attention to the wording which, I think. will give rise to very great difficulty. The owner is here defined as a person who may permit the premises to be occupied. There must be very many cases in which permission is given to occupy a house by a person who is not the owner at all. It would be very dangerous to say that the owner of premises was the person who permitted somebody else to use the premises. I venture to think that it is very unwise to include that in the Bill as a definition of an owner. There will be many cases in which someone may go away and leave it in the hands of anyone to grant permission to various people. It is a matter which I think will give rise to great difficulty.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I am very much obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I would remind him that the cases are only those in which the house is occupied free of rent, but I will certainly have the matter looked into.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I hope in view of the matter raised by the late Attorney-General, the hon. and gallant Member will not press this Amendment. It seems extremely doubtful whether the words will not make the Bill unintelligible.

Mr. SPEAKER

Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte) will move to leave out the last words?

Amendment made to proposed Amendment: Leave out the words and does not include an owner who is in occupation thereof." — [Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte.]

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

CLAUSE 12.—(Power and duty to make sufficient Rates, etc.)

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 15, line 30, to leave out from the word "authority" to the end of line 35, and to insert instead thereof the words may at any time advance to the authority any sum which the authority may temporarily require and which—

1. (a)they are at that time authorised to raise by loan; or
2. (b)they require for the purpose of defraying expenses pending the receipt of rates and revenues receivable by them in respect of the period of account in which those expenses are chargeable:

and the authority may pay interest at a reasonable rate on any advance so made. I would like to explain to the House that no Amendments were made to this Clause in Committee. The Amendments which I now ask the House to accept are the result of some representations that have come to me from outside this House, and also on further consideration by myself and my Department of the effect of the Clause. The Clause was designed origin ally to do away with certain anomalies which exist under the present law. Pro visions have been made to prevent local authorities omitting to levy rates for which expenditure has been incurred. There is evidently some temptation to those who are just going out of office, having incurred expenditure, to put off levying the rates which might be some what unpopular with the electors. Those provisions of which I speak had the un fortunate result that the penalties were inflicted not on those who committed the crime, but on those who had to come after and clean up the mess. The Clause was originally designed to put upon local authorities the fear of surcharge and pre vent those anomalies occurring in the future. One of the people who were left to suffer under the existing law was the treasurer. The second Sub-section of the Clause as it stands in the Bill was drafted in order to give the treasurer some relief. It seemed to us on further consider ation that we had gone a bit too far, that we had released the treasurer from perhaps responsibilities that ought to lie upon him, and the effect of my Amendments therefore is to provide that the treasurer is only allowed under the Clause to advance to the authorities any sum which the authorities may temporarily require, and which either they are authorised to raise by loan, or which they require for the purpose of defraying expenses temporarily in a period for which the rates are already received. I think, if the House will accept these Amendments, we are giving the necessary relief to the treasurer, but we safeguard local administration from possible abuse which may arise from relieving the treasurer from responsibilities which should rightly lie upon him. The subsequent Amendments are merely consequential.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

As I under stand it, the Amendment in Sub-section (2) of this Clause merely alters the powers of the treasurer to recoup him self in cases where he has had to make payments to another local authority or advances to his own local authority in order to meet charges incurred. The wording of the Sub-section differs from the wording in the new Clause, and I want to know whether that makes any difference. In the original Clause he was debarred from taking credit, and in the new Clause he is given powers to, at any time, advance to the authority any sum. Does that mean the same thing? When I read Sub-section (2), I thought "taking credit" meant crediting him with interest as well as recovery of the principal. That is not so. Sub-section (3) is also being altered. I should like to know whether the alteration of the wording there makes any difference. Sub-section (3) enables the local authority to levy a rate to meet the interest which it may have to pay on an overdraft. I would like to know whether the words proposed to be inserted in Sub-section (3) make any difference.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

There are no words being inserted.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg your pardon. It is proposed to insert the words This Section shall have effect as from the appointed day. I should like to know whether Sub-section (3) as it stands makes any change in the law as it exists to-day or whether it is allowing a local authority to charge to the rates something it has not been able to charge before. I should imagine that in every case the local authority would be able to charge interest as a legitimate charge on the ratepayers of the locality. If that be not so, I wonder what the position is to-day. So far as Sub-section (2) is concerned, however, there is only one further thing I want to know. Has the original Sub-section or the amended Sub section (2) been drafted in any way in connection with the recent troubles which the Ministry of Health have had with certain local authorities? Is this the result in any way of the surcharges of which we have heard so much, or is it an entirely different difficulty which has cropped up?

Mr. SCURR

Does this apply to boards of guardians as well as to municipal authorities?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

This does not apply to guardians; it only applies to municipal authorities. In reply to the question of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), this has nothing to do with recent charges. This has to do with the liability of the treasurer and his agent. It has nothing to do with any recent occurrence.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Has the treasurer no safeguard at all?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Oh, yes, but it is the safeguarding of the ratepayer that we are concerned about. Local authorities must not live on overdrafts. They must collect the rates for the expenditure they incur. They must not go simply borrowing money from the bank so that the ratepayers never realise what the expenditure really is, because it is not raised by rates. That is what we want to prevent. At the same time, there are circumstances in which a treasurer would very properly advance money to a local authority to meet temporary difficulties when the rates which were leviable in the period came in later in the year.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Or demands from other local authorities; precepts from other local authorities?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Or precepts from other local authorities. Sub-section (1) of this Clause deals with the local authority, and provides that the local authority must make such rates as are necessary. Sub-section (3) provides that where the loss represented by any such charge for interest or loss of interest, if it arises from failure or wilful neglect or wilful default to make or collect such rates, is to be deemed a loss within the meaning of certain Acts. I am sorry to say I made a mistake just now. I am informed this does apply to boards of guardians.

Mr. BANKS

I should like to clear up a doubt in my mind. The Payment of Debts Act provides that the debt must be paid within the period in which it is incurred or three months after the expiration of the half-year, provided that the Minister of Health can by Order extend that period to 12 months after the date of the liability being incurred. I assume that that position is left unchanged by the present Clause?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Yes.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 15, line 36, leave out from the beginning to the first word "any," in line 43.

In page 15; line 43, leave out the word "such."

In page 16, line 8, leave out the words "the above-mentioned enactments," and insert Section thirty-two of the Poor Law (Amendment) Act, 1844, and Sub-section (7) of Section two hundred and forty-seven of the Public Health Act, 1875.

In page 16, line. 8, at end, insert the words (4) This Section shall have effect as from the appointed day."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

CLAUSE 14.—(Limitation of right to appeal to quarter sessions against rate.)

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 17, line 13, to leave out from the word "list" to the end of the Clause.

This is consequential and was made necessary by the dropping of the railway Clauses.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

This is, I think, the first opportunity we have had of discussing this matter, and I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, not in any obstructive sense, whether there is any prospect of bringing forward a "Bill dealing with the railway assessment question, which has been dropped out of this Bill. When this matter was discussed in Committee, the Government said they contemplated bringing forward a Bill dealing with the question of the assessment of railway rating specifically, and as one who approved the Clause on railway rating which was inserted in the Bill originally, and who honestly thinks that something must be done soon to meet this question, I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any possibility of our counting on seeing that Bill next year, what steps the Ministry of Health are taking to get a Bill drafted, or whether the matter has to be postponed for the inquiry, which comes later. I think it is of enormous importance that we should get at this question as soon as possible, because we have a railway inquiry going on, and its bearing on this question of rating is of great importance. I should like to have some assurance from the Government that we shall see the Bill next year, and that there will not be the unfortunate delay which usually results from the appointment of a Select Committee.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I think I can give that assurance. There is no necessity to appoint a Committee or to make any inquiry into this question, because all that we have to do is to embody in a Bill the Clauses which were removed from the original draft of this Bill. I thing the right hon. Gentleman will remember that the reason why we dropped the Clauses was simply on a question of time. We had not time to get the Bill through with the Clauses in, and it was not because there was any difficulty otherwise. It is true, however, that the Bill as originally drafted did not include provisions for the Anglo-Scottish railways, which were left over to be dealt with in a separate Bill, and, I think, now that we have got the principal railway Clauses out of this Bill, when we come to introduce a new Bill, we shall put in, as well, Clauses dealing with the Anglo-Scottish railways.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

The method of arriving at the assessments will be more or less the same, I take it?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Yes.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 15.—(Recovery of rates from under-tenants.)

Mr. RYE

I beg to move, in page 17, line 10, to leave out the word "premises" and to insert instead thereof the word "hereditament."

This is a drafting Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I will accept it.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. RYE

I beg to move, in page 17, lines 17 and 18, to leave out the words tenant, under-tenant, or lodger, and to insert instead thereof the words, person paying rent in respect of that hereditament, or any part thereof, to the person from whom the arrears are due. The result of this Amendment, if accepted, will be that the only person on whom the rating authority can call for payment of these rates will be the tenant or lodger of the person in arrear, and the notice will not extend to any sub-tenant. The reason for the Amendment is this, that, as the Clause is drawn, great hardship would result in certain instances to a sub-tenant. To explain the matter to the House—the position is a little complicated—I shall have to give an example of, say, a large shop with basement in Regent Street, in the occupation of one person—call him A—who would be the rated occupier, and who would consequently be liable for the rates. That person may, and often does, sub-let a portion of the shop and basement, as a rule half of it, at an inclusive rent, and we might have a case where the subtenant, whom we will call B, finding it impossible to carry on his business on a remunerative basis in that half-shop and basement, underlets the half shop and basement at the same rent and again on inclusive terms.

We might then find the rating authority, if A is in arrear with his rates, serving a notice on the sub-tenant B, who, having already paid his rent to A, might then find that a notice had been served on sub-tenant C, with the result that B, who had already paid rent to the landlord in expectation of recouping himself from C, would find that C's rent had been switched, by virtue of this Clause, direct to the rating authority, to the detriment of himself (B). I think the House will agree that it would be an unreasonable thing, and very inequitable, that the person, who had paid the rent to a defaulting rated occupier should be penalised by losing the rent due from his sub-tenant.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether Clause 15. as it stands or as it is amended, makes any change in the existing law, and, if not, why it is necessary to have it in the Bill?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I am not quite certain that I understand the point of the question. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether it makes any change in the law, and if it did, why it is necessary.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Is not Clause 15, as it stands in the Bill, the law as it exists now, and if so, what is the change? Are these new powers of the local authority to deal with lodgers?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Yes, this is a new right given by the Clause to a local authority to have recourse to the undertenant where the rates have not been paid, so that the rent due by the undertenant to the tenant may be taken in payment of the rates. I think the Amendment seems a very reasonable one, and I will accept it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 17, line 21, leave out the words "such tenant, under-tenant, or lodger," and insert instead thereof the words "the person paying the rent."—[Mr. Rye.]

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg to move, in page 17, to leave out lines 27 to 32 inclusive.

I want to understand what the position is. The proviso that I seek to omit runs: Provided that the right of the rating authority to recover, receive and give a discharge for any rent as aforesaid shall be postponed to any right in respect of that rent which may at any time be vested in the superior landlord by virtue of a notice under Section six of the Law of Distress (Amendment) Act, 1908. I do not see why that should be so. We are accustomed to giving a ground landlord prior rights in some cases, but why should he have a prior right in this case? You are giving to the local authority the right to collect rates which are in arrear from the lodger instead of from the occupier, and to give a discharge to the lodger for the rent which is due from him to the tenant of the house. Why should you refuse to give exactly the same right to the local authority when there is a ground rent on the house, for which presumably the occupier would be liable? That is to say, why do you put the occupier in the position of saying: "You must first pay your ground landlord, and then, secondly, pay your local authority"? It seems to me to be a proviso of which we on this side cannot approve.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The answer is that the superior landlord already has this right by virtue of the Law of Distress (Amendment) Act, 1908. If two people are to have a right, one must have a right in front of the other, and surely the reasonable thing in such a case is that the person who has already got the right should have the prior right, and that anybody else should come in afterwards.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Surely there is no other case where the right of a landlord comes before the right of the State?

Mr. RYE

The right hon. Gentleman opposite is a little confused, I think, as to the identity of the superior landlord. He is under the impression that the superior landlord is only a person who is in receipt of a ground rent, but in the imaginary case of the Regent Street shop which I mentioned a moment or two ago, the original person who let to A might have let to him at £3,000 a year. It would not be a question of ground rent at all. There is already a statutory right, under Section 6 of the Law of Distress (Amendment) Act, 1908, and you cannot have the two rights running together. If the right hon. Gentleman will remember what occurred in Committee, it was decided that whatever rights the rating authority might have, they ought to be postponed for existing rights under the Act to which I have referred. There is another point, and that is that the right hon. Gentleman talks about a superior landlord having priority over the State. We are not dealing with the State, but with the municipality, and there is a distinction between rates and taxes, and we know that, so far as taxes are concerned, taxes due, to the Crown have priority over other claims.

Mr. SCURR

Surely the right of the municipality is just as great as the right of the State? This House decides on taxation then the taxes are levied for public purposes. The municipalities are exactly in the same position. Parliament has devolved upon the local authorities certain public duties. In order to carry

them out it is necessary to levy rates, and unless the municipality can get those rates they are unable to carry out their public duties. The question has been put forward as to priority of claim. The right hon. Gentleman thought that as the landlord has had this right for a considerable time, therefore, the easiest thing was to give him prior right now. I contend that the obligations of the community ought to come before the obligations to the landlord or any other private person. For these reasons I support the Amendment.

Mr. DENNIS HERBERT

To omit this proviso would make a person liable for rates which are not payable by him. It would bring about this result; that the property of an innocent person interested in a certain house would be taken, because some other person altogether was in default. The purpose of this proviso is this: when a man lets a whole house or building in Regent Street the man to whom he lets it is the person liable for the rates. The man liable for the rates lets the ground floor to A, the next floor to B, and the third floor to C. The man does not pay his rent. Very well. Thereupon his landlord, who is not liable for the rates at all, is able under the law of distress to require the sub-tenants to pay their rent over to him until he is satisfied. Therefore, there is no question here of giving any undue priority to the landlord as against the rating authority.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'the' in line 30, stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 129.

Division No. 400.]	AYES.	[7.35 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Berry, Sir George	Burman, J. S.
Albery, Irving James	Bethell, A.	Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Betterton, Henry B.	Burton, Colonel H. W.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Butler, Sir Geoffrey
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.	Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Blades, Sir George Rowland	Caine, Gordon Hall
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Blundell, F. N.	Campbell, E. T.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander, F. W.	Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Cassels, J. D.
Atholl, Duchess of	Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Brass, Captain W.	Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Brassey, Sir Leonard	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Balniel, Lord	Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Briscoe, Richard George	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Christie, J. A.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Clarry, Reginald George
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Buckingham, Sir H.	Clayton, G. C.
Bennett, A. J.	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Cobb, Sir Cyril
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Bullock, Captain M.	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Homan, C. W. J.	Rees, Sir Beddoe
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cope, Major William	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Remer, J. R.
Couper, J. B.	Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Remnant, Sir James
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Rice, Sir Frederick
Crook, C. W.	Hume, Sir G. H.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Hurd, Percy A.	Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Dalkeith, Earl of	Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.	Rye, F. G.
Dalziel, Sir Davison	Jacob, A. E.	Salmon, Major I.
Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Jephcott, A. R.	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Kennedy, A. H. (Preston).	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Sandon, Lord
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Dixey, A. C.	Lamb, J. Q.	Savery, S. S.
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.	Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Drewe, C.	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Duckworth, John	Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Little, Dr. E. Graham	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
England, Colonel A.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Skelton, A. N.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Everard, W. Lindsay	Loder, J. de V.	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Looker, Herbert William	Smithers, Waldron
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Formoy, Lord	Lougher, L.	Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Finburgh, S.	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.	Mac Andrew, Charles Glen	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Fleming, D. P.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Forrest, W.	Macintyre, Ian	Storry Deans, R.
Foster, Sir Harry S.	McLean, Major A.	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Macmillan, Captain H.	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Fraser, Captain Ian	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Frece, Sir Walter de	McNeill, Rt. Hon Ronald John	Sudden, Sir Wilfrid
Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Malone, Major P. B.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Ganzoni, Sir John	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Tinne, J. A.
Gates, Percy.	Margesson, Captain D.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Turton, Edmund Russborough
Gee, Captain R.	Merriman, F. B.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Meyer, Sir Frank	Waddington, R.
Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Glyn. Major R. G. C.	Moles, Thomas	Ward, Lt.-Col A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Goff, Sir Park	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Grace, John	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Warrender, Sir Victor
Grant, J. A.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Morden, Col. W. Grant	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Gretton, Colonel John	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Watts, Dr. T.
Grotrian, H. Brent.	Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Wells, S. R.
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Nelson, Sir Frank	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Neville, R. J.	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Hammersley, S. S.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hanbury, C.	Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfieid)
Harland, A.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Nuttall, Ellis	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Harrison, G. J. C.	O'Connor. T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hartington, Marquess of	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Wise, Sir Fredric
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Owen, Major G.	Wolmer, Viscount
Haslam, Henry C.	Pennefather, Sir John	Womersley, W. J.
Hawke, John Anthony	Penny, Frederick George	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Worthingtcn-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)	Philipson, Mabel	Wragg, Herbert
Hilton, Cecil	Pielou, D. P.	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Preston, William	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Radford, E. A.	Major Hennessy and Mr. F. C.
Holland, Sir Arthur	Raine, W.	Thomson.
Holt, Captain H. P.	Ramsden, E.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Attlee, Clement Richard	Baker, Walter

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Harris, Percy A.	Scurr, John
Barr, J	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Batey, Joseph	Hayday, Arthur	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Hayes, John Henry	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Sitch, Charles H.
Briant, Frank	Hirst, G. H.	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Broad, F. A.	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smillie, Robert
Bromfield, William	Hore-Bolisha, Leslie	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Buchanan, G.	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Cape, Thomas	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C.	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Stephen, Campbell
Clowes, S.	Kelly, W. T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Cluse, W. S.	Kennedy, T.	Taylor, R. A.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.	Lansbury, George	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Connolly, M.	Lawson, John James	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)
Cove, W. G.	Lee, F.	Theme, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lindley, F. W.	Thurtle, E.
Crawfurd, H. E.	Livingstone, A. M.	Tinker, John Joseph
Dalton, Hugh	Lowth, T.	Townend, A. E.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Lunn, William	Varley, Frank B.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Wallhead, Richard C.
Day, Colonel Harry	Mackinder, W.	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Dennison, R.	MacLaren, Andrew	Warne, G. H.
Duncan, C.	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	March, S.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Montague, Frederick	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D.	Morris, R. H.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Murnin, H.	Westwood, J.
Gibbins, Joseph	Naylor, T. E.	Whiteley, W.
Gillett, George M.	Oliver, George Harold	Wiggins, William Martin
Gosling, Harry	Palin, John Henry	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Paling, W.	Williams, David (Swansea. E.)
Greenall, T.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Potts, John S.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Windsor, Walter
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Riley, Ben	Wright, W.
Groves, T.	Ritson, J.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T, W.	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Saklatvala, Shapurji	Mr. T, Henderson and Mr. A.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Scrymgeour, E.	Barnes.
Hardie, George D.

Further Amendment made: In page 17. line 30, leave out the word "the" and insert instead thereof the word "a."- [Mr. Rye.]

Mr. RYE

I beg to move in page 17, line 32, at the end, to insert the words: (2) This Section shall have effect as from the appointed day. (3) In this Section the expression "rent" includes a payment made by a lodger. My reason for moving the Amendment in this form is that in a strictly legal sense, when a lodger enters into the occupation of premises the landlord retains the exercise of a certain amount of control. Unless the manuscript words in the Amendment are adopted it might be that the rating authority would be unable to serve notice upon the lodger of a defaulting ratepayer. Under the Clause the rating authority can serve a notice upon the tenant of the defaulting ratepayer and they are also to be entitled, or they should be entitled, in fact, under the Bill they will be entitled, to serve a notice on the lodger of a defaulter, but unless these words are inserted it might be held, on a strict definition of the word "rent," that as a fact moneys due from a lodger were not rent and could not be obtained by the rating authority after the notice had been served.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

I propose to ask the House to accept this Amendment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Why, we have not seen it!

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

It is a very simple one. I have not seen it, but in substance the Amendment is to provide that "rent" in this Clause shall include the payment which a lodger makes to a person from whom he rents a room or rooms. I am sure hon. Members opposite desire nothing more than that the law should be as explicit as possible and free from ambiguity. I understand it is in that spirit and in that spirit only that the Amendment is moved, and in the same spirit the Government accept it.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I am quite certain that it is our desire that the Bill should be as explicit as possible, but if it was not understood before that the rent paid by a lodger was rent, I am rather surprised.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The word "lodger" is in the Clause as it stands in the Bill, and that made it quite explicit, but an Amendment has been made which removes the word "lodger" and talks about the "person paying rent," and the word "rent" might be held not to include lodger.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

So this is merely putting into the Bill again what was in before; but that does not alter the fact that it is not explicit, as the Solicitor-General suggested it should be, because the Definition Clause has no definition of what a lodger is. Does "lodger" include a paying guest, or people who are stopping at hotels? If the Solicitor-General tells us it is our duty to make this Bill explicit, so that nobody can misunderstand it, we ought to have a definition of this mysterious and elusive lodger who comes in in one Clause and goes out in another.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 16.—(Assessment Areas.)

Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN

I beg to move, in page 18, line 15, to leave out the words "therein mentioned," and to insert instead thereof the words "submitting the scheme."

There is a slight confusion in the present wording of the Bill. This is merely a drafting Amendment.

Mr. RYE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The Government ask the House to accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN

I beg to move, in page 18, line 17, at the end, to insert the words (5) As soon as a scheme has been submitted to the Minister under this Section the council or councils submitting the scheme shall publish in one or more newspapers circulating in their area or areas a notice stating that the scheme has been so submitted and that a copy thereof is open to inspection at a specified place. The reason for this Amendment is that provision is made in the Bill for areas to be arranged between various local authorities. Authorities may join to- gether in a scheme, but these schemes may very well affect other people, and when this Clause was discussed in Committee it was felt that provision ought to be made to advertise these schemes beforehand, so that not only the parties who are putting forward the scheme but other interested parties who may be affected may have an opportunity of knowing what is proposed.

Mr. BANKS

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

The Government will ask the House to accept this Amendment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I am sorry the Government have stepped into the breach and accepted this Amendment at once. I thinks it calls upon local authorities to incur an unnecessary piece of extravagance. This Clause fixes assessment areas. Where there are county boroughs, they are the assessment area, and where there are no county boroughs then schemes are to be produced grouping the urban districts and rural districts into assessment areas. These assessment authorities have certain, but very limited, functions to perform. The authority which draws up the draft valuation list is the authority in the rural district or the urban district or the borough. In order to check the valuation as drawn up by these primary authorities there are these assessment authorities. The authority for the assessment area checks the draft list and, I think, hears objections. Even then the assessment authority is not the final authority—it passes on to the county, and then, finally, to Quarter Sessions. The assessment authority is a stage in turning the valuation into as accurate a valuation as the farmers and the landlords will allow. But it is not, as the House will observe, an important body, nor is it important that the assessment areas should be very carefully studied by all the ratepayers. The Amendment insists that the local authorities shall publish as an advertisement in the local papers the boundaries of the areas of assessment authorities, which have a merely nominal—well, not merely nominal, but trivial, function to perform in comparison with the local authorities of the various districts. I do not sup pose very many ratepayers would study the areas as laid down in these advertisements, but in any case the scheme does not depend upon them. It is not the ratepayers who will decide the scheme, it is the Government. The scheme goes to the Government and if the Government are satisfied that it is a suitable scheme—

Sir K. WOOD

We have to consider representations that may be made.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

But the representations would only be made, presumably, by the interests concerned, who would know all about it without an advertisement in the local Press. I do urge the House not to put on local authorities the expense of these advertisements. Every single area would have to be described in the advertisements, and the hon. Gentleman, who throughout these Debates has shown himself to be a friend of economical and efficient administration, ought not to put his name down to an Amendment like this which will create an unnecessary expense without doing any appreciable good or helping anybody.

Mr. SCURR

I desire to support the opposition to this Amendment, as I regard the proposal as perfect waste. The Clause as originally drafted gives to rating and other local authorities and any other interested parties the right of making representations. It is now suggested that other interested parties can only know what is being done regarding the proposed assessment areas if it is advertised in a local paper. Most of us know what the majority of local newspapers are like. Most of these cases will concern rural areas, and in the majority of rural areas, as in a good many towns, what sort of sheet is the local newspaper? It is generally something produced by someone who goes round recording the activities of Members of Parliament if they are particularly prominent in attending "free-and-easies,'' flower shows, and events of that kind, and it is also able to get a little revenue from describing local weddings and funerals, but, generally, in order to maintain itself at all, it has to rely on getting advertisements from local authorities. Look into them, and what do you find? You find that, generally, there has been issued to them from mysterious quarters in London, probably very often from Palace Chambers, various articles which are reproduced in each one of those papers as though they are the words of the editor himself. By these means a little gramophone Press is established throughout the whole of the country, in order that Palace Chambers may be able to tell the people that all the wisdom rests in that particular place.

Then, in order to live, the papers try to get advertisements from local councils —an advertisement when the board of guardians desire to appoint a house porter, or when the borough council require a surveyor. Unless they get these advertisements these local papers cannot live. Now the hon. Member desires to increase their revenue. An advertisement showing what the assessment area is going to be will have to be a very detailed and a very elaborate advertisement, and the proprietor of the paper would at once have to charge special rates for this particular advertisement. On any question of local government hon. Members, when outside this House, always pride themselves on being the champions of economy, say they are the people who are out to save the rates, that they are not going to spend money under any circumstances, and that it is only the wicked Labour and Socialist people who throw money away recklessly. This Amendment will impose undue charges on local authorities, and I have much pleasure in supporting the opposition to it.

8.0 P.M.

Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN

Hon. Members opposite have treated the whole question as though we were only dealing with rural areas. I speak as Member for the West Derby division of Liverpool, one of the areas which must form part of a scheme. There are a great many others, particularly in Lancashire, and it is highly important that large undertakings such as docks and other private or semi-private bodies should know what proposals are put forward. They should have the opportunity themselves of making representations so far as they as an industry are concerned. I am entirely at one with everything that has been said as to economy, but there may be occasions when economy becomes very expensive. The Amendment, I think, is justifiable, and I am glad to know it is acceptable to the Government.

Mr. LANSBURY

It is not that we object to publicity, but there are more ways of getting publicity than by subsidising these rather stupid newspapers. Here, again, it is not a question of "may." We do not leave the local authority any discretion; they must advertise in these local newspapers. I do not want to repeat what my hon. Friend has just said, but I do want to reply to the hon. Gentleman opposite, and point out that a few big posters in any district will reach a much bigger public than these local newspapers. How much circulation have many of these local newspapers got? 2,000, 3,000 or 4,000, and hon. Members opposite know perfectly well that what my hon. Friend said is quite true, that what keeps these papers going is their being subsidised by the local authorities, and that is just as corrupt as being subsidised from any other source. Therefore, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give us some better reasons than the hon. Gentle man, whoso only argument was, "Let us have publicity." You can get the best kind of publicity on the church doors, in the post offices, and on the walls, and there are plenty of public places where quite big posters can be put up, giving the people all the information without subsidising these Tory rags that circulate throughout, the country districts.

Sir K. WOOD

I hope the House will not attach too much importance to this Amendment, because I venture to think it is really a very small matter. It simply provides that when a scheme is about to be submitted to the Minister, it shall be made known in what, I should think, is the most appropriate place in those days. If the hon. Member will have regard to this fact, I think he will see the necessity of this provision. Before any scheme is approved by the Minister, he has to consider representations from various authorities mentioned in the Clause, and, obviously, the most convenient way of giving notice to those authorities and many other interested parties is in the Press. It is not a question of subsidising any particular party in the Press, or anything of that kind. The hon. Gentleman opposite says that some of these newspapers have a very small circulation. I hardly think he is doing justice to some of the great newspapers in the provinces, like the "Liverpool Post" and the "Manchester Guardian," which un- doubtedly circulate very widely indeed. Amongst the persons who are affected by this Clause, I submit it is not an unreasonable thing that due publicity should be given in what, I venture to think, is the most appropriate and the modern way. I hope hon. Members will regard this as a very reasonable proposal, which I advise the House to accept.

Mr. ATTLEE

I do think we want to know why this is being put in in such a peremptory way considering that notice of a rate is to be given either in the public Press or on the church door. I would, first of all, like to know what is a newspaper "circulating in their area." It might be the "Sporting Times" or something of that sort which circulates all over the country, or it might be, the "Daily Herald," which goes all over the country. Would that be sufficient? I submit that where you have important schemes being made like these, the information will be inserted by the local Press as news, without the council having to pay for it as advertisement, and that you will get all the publicity you want in that way. In the previous matter it was a case in which individuals had to be notified of the rate. In this case, the people concerned are either the local authorities or certain big ratepayers, and I have never found ratepayers, such as those Dock Undertakings mentioned by the hon. Member for the West Derby Division (Mr. S. Allen), who were not sufficiently enlightened to obtain information on a matter affecting their money. I think it is quite an unnecessary expenditure that all these schemes should be published in a newspaper. If these advertisements are to be put in the newspapers in the form of a large display, it is going to be very expensive. If they are going into the "small wants" columns, they will not be read. I suggest the right way is to leave this as it was in the Bill originally, and if the local newspapers are so important, as we have been told they are, they will put in these details without any payment.

Mr. SPENCER

I quite agree as to the value of publicity, but I would like to test the sincerity of those who approve the Amendment by asking if they are prepared to substitute the words, "in the newspapers circulating in their area." It is quite possible that in some districts, one could readily imagine, you would have two or three local newspapers circulating, perhaps a Labour newspaper, a Liberal newspaper, and a Conservative newspaper, and you might have a Conservative, Liberal, or Labour council, who would put it in one paper and leave it out of the other two papers. If the object of the Amendment is to give this information to the whole of the ratepayers that they may avail themselves of the information for the purpose of objecting to the scheme or making representations to the Minister, it is quite evident that all ought to have it. As this Amendment stands, the council will have the right to publish the information in any such newspaper as it likes. If a Labour council, they may put it in a Labour newspaper, and none other; if a Liberal council, in. a Liberal newspaper, and none other; or if a. Conservative council, in a Conservative paper, and none other. It is no use the hon. Gentleman shaking his head. The Amendment says "one or more newspapers." If the hon. Member desires to have full publicity without corruption, let him take out the words "one or more newspapers" and put in. the words "newspapers circulating in the area," and he will get, I am sure, a large measure of support on this side. Otherwise, I am certain my hon. Friends, as I, will vote against it.

Sir K. WOOD

As a matter of fact, this phraseology appears in a great many Acts of Parliament. It would be very

unfair to say what should be the newspapers chosen. Some circulate in one part of the district, and some in another. I think the authority can well be left to say in what newspapers it shall give publicity to the scheme. These words have been in many Acts of Parliament in connection with notices convening meet-tings of friendly societies and others under the Friendly Societies Act, and no difficulty has been found. I am sure the authorities can be trusted to give due publicity to the matter.

Mr. CECIL WILSON

May I ask the Minister whether this difficulty would not be got over—because we are all agreed on the necessity for publicity—by leaving it to the areas themselves to decide as to what is the most suitable, form, by inserting words such as "shall publish in such manner as they consider most suitable"?

Sir K. WOOD

That is, I suggest, entirely against the proposal here, as it would leave it to the local authorities to make no publication at all except in the form suggested by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), namely, the church door. I would venture to suggest that the method in the Amendment is the appropriate one, and that the local authorities may well be trusted to use it in the best possible way.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 270; Noes, 124.

Division No. 401.]	AYES.	[8.14 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Albery, Irving James	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Croakshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Dalkeith, Earl of
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newby)	Dalziel, Sir Davison
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Buckingham, Sir H.	Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Astor, Viscountess	Bullock, Captain M.	Davies, Dr. Vernon
Atholl, Duchess of	Burman, J. B.	Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Burton, Colonel H. W.	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Dixey, A. C.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H	Caine, Gordon Hall	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Campbell, E. T.	Drewe, C.
Bennett, A. J.	Cassels, J. D.	Duckworth, John
Berry, Sir George	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Edmondson, Major A. J.
Bethell, A.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Betterton, Henry B.	Christie, J. A.	Elliot, Captain Walter E.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Clarry, Reginald George	England, Colonel A.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Clayton, G. C.	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Everard, W. Lindsay
Blundell, F. N.	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Cooper, A. Duff	Fenby, T. D.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Cope, Major William	Fermoy, Lord
Brass, Captain W.	Couper, J. B.	Finburgh, S.
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Fleming, D. P.
Briscoe, Richard George	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Forrest, W.	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Rye, F. G.
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Little, Dr. E. Graham	Salmon, Major I.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Fraser, Captain Ian	Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.	Loder, J. de V.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony	Looker, Herbert William	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Sandon, Lord
Ganzoni, Sir John.	Laugher, L.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Gates, Percy.	Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Savery, S. S.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Gee, Captain R.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Skelton, A. N.
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Macintyre, Ian	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Goff, Sir Park	McLean, Major A.	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Grace, John	Macmillan, Captain H.	Smithers, Waldron
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Somerville, A- A. (Windsor)
Gretton, Colonel John	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Willsden, E.)
Grotrian, H. Brent.	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Stanley, Hon. o. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Malone, Major P. B.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Storry Deans, R.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Margesson, Captain D.	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hammersley, S. S.	Merriman, F. B.	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Hanbury, C.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Harland, A.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Harrison, G. J. C.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Hartington, Marquess of	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Tinne, J. A.
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Nelson, Sir Frank	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Haslam, Henry C.	Neville, R. J.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hawke, John Anthony	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Waddington, R.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Watts, Dr. T.
Hilton, Cecil	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Wells, Dr. T.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Owen, Major G.	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Pennefather, Sir John	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Holland, Sir Arthur	Penny, Frederick George	Wiggins, William Martin
Holt, Captain H. P.	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Homan, C. W. J.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon Torquay)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Philipson, Mabel	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Pielou, D. P.	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Winder-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'and, Whiteh'n)	Preston, William	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hume, Sir G. H.	Radford, E. A.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Raine, W.	Womersley, W. J.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Jacob, A. E.	Remer, J. R.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Jephcott, A. R.	Remnant, Sir James	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Wragg, Herbert
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Rice, Sir Frederick	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)	Captain Viscount Curzon and
Lamb, J. Q.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Major Sir Harry Barnston.
Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Charleton, H. C.	Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Clowes, S.	Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Cluse, W. S.	Greenall, T.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Connolly, M.	Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Cove, W. G.	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Baker, Walter	Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Crawfurd, H. E.	Groves, T.
Barnes, A.	Dalton, Hugh	Grundy, T. W.
Barr, J.	Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)
Batey, Joseph	Day, Colonel Harry	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Dennison, R.	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Briant, Frank	Duncan, C.	Hardie, George D.
Broad, F. A.	Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Harris, Percy A.
Bromfield, William	Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Gibbins, Joseph	Hayday, Arthur
Buchanan, G.	Gillett, George M.	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Cape, Thomas	Gosling, Harry	Hirst, G. H.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Thurtle, E.
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Potts, John S.	Tinker, John Joseph
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Townend, A. E.
John, William (Rhondda, West)	Riley, Ben	Varley, Frank B.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Ritson, J.	Viant, S. P.
Kelly, W. T.	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)	Wallhead, Richard C.
Kennedy, T.	Scrymgeour, E.	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Lansbury, George	Scurr, John	Warne, G. H.
Lawson, John James	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)
Lee F.	Shiels, Dr. Drummond	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Lindley. F. W.	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Livingstone, A. M.	Sitch, Charles H.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Lowth, T.	Slesser, Sir Henry H.	Westwood, J.
Lunn, William	Smillie, Robert	Whiteley, W.
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Mackinder, W.	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)	Williams, David (Swansea, East)
MacLaren, Andrew	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Stamford, T. W.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
March, S.	Stephen, Campbell	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)	Windsor, Walter
Montague, Frederick	Taylor, R. A.	Wright, W.
Morris, R. H.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Murnin, H.	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Oliver, George Harold	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Palin, John Henry	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)	Mr. Hayes and Mr. T. Henderson.
Paling, W.

Mr. TINNE

I beg to move, in page 18, line 42, at the end, to insert, the words Before a scheme is made by the Minister under this Section he shall publish in one or more newspapers circulating in the areas to which the scheme relates a notice stating his proposal to make the scheme, and that a copy of the draft scheme is open to inspection at a specified place and specifying a date by which any persons affected may send to him representations of the draft scheme. This Amendment is to provide for the case where a local authority has defaulted in regard to producing a scheme, and the scheme has been made by the Minister. I am not particularly wedded to the wording of my Amendment but as I understand the principle is admitted I hope the Minister of Health will see his way to accept the principle and embody it in the Bill.

Mr. CHRISTIE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

I am not sure that the wording of this Amendment is satisfactory, but I will look into it between now and the time the Bill reaches another place.

Miss WILKINSON

Would the Parliamentary Secretary be good enough to repeat that remark, as none of us on this side heard what he said.

Sir K. WOOD

I informed my hon. Friend behind me that I did not think the wording of his Amendment was satisfactory, and obviously I could not accept it, but I promised him that I would look at it again between now and the time the Bill reaches another place.

Mr. HAYES

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if, when he is looking at the wording of this suggested new Sub-section, he will bear in mind that the phrase with regard to "one or more newspapers" might be better worded? I suggest that it would be desirable to say "newspapers circulating in that area."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. SCURR

On a point of Order. I understood that permission was asked to withdraw this Amendment.

Captain Viscount CURZON (Lord of the Treasury)

May I say, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that I objected to this Amendment being inserted?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope)

I am afraid now that the matter must be corrected in another place. I understood that the Amendment was not withdrawn. I understood the Minister to say that he accepted it, subject to correction of the wording. Anyhow, the Amendment was not withdrawn, or, if it was, I did not catch what was said. The other place is now, I understand, the proper theatre for action.

Mr. LANSBURY

On a point of Order. Do you not think, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the condition of the Parliamentary Secretary, tired and worn out as he is, is such that we had better adjourn?

Captain WATERHOUSE

I beg to move, in page 19, line 2, after the word "had," to insert the words to the desirability of adopting existing boundaries where possible, and. This Clause is a very serious one from the point of view of rural district councils, and of rural districts generally. Hon. Members on the Labour Benches are apt to laugh at anything having to do with the counties, and to say that they are inhabited by farmers and landowners, of both of whom they speak with a sneer. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] We on this side do know something about the country districts. We are not in the condition of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), who said yesterday that he knew the slums because he had seen them in his constituency. We know something about the country because we have to live there. We do know—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I cannot allow, on this Amendment, a long statement as to the merits of country life.

Captain WATERHOUSE

I am sorry if I have transgressed. I feel that the merits of the countryside do need emphasising in this House. This Bill has been based on the case of town dwellers; the benefits which it gives it gives to town dwellers, and we welcome these benefits; but we who live in the country feel that we are rather left out in the case of many of its provisions. This Amendment seeks, in effect, to give a direction to the county council that, when forming their assessment areas, they shall have regard to the existing assessment areas. The existing Poor Law unions have often been assailed and have often been criticised, but in the opinion of those who have had anything to do with local government in the counties those union areas are satisfactory and do adequately serve the people who live in them, and the towns in which the union offices are situated are, generally speaking, the best possible ones from the point of view of the rate payers and from the point of the poor. We submit that at the present day, although there have been great expansions and great changes in regard to population, those towns which were large towns 100 years ago, are still large and important towns. We fear, too, that this Measure, and this Clause in particular, is going to throw local government more and more into the hands of the Department in London. Naturally, the Department in London is in favour of centralisation, but, although centralisation gives uniformity, it is not necessary for uniformity. I urge that the Minister can get uniformity and still leave us these great traditional areas which have served and still serve a very useful purpose in this country.

The Minister yesterday spoke of the necessity for having close touch. It is just that close touch that I want now to emphasise. If we have three or four of these present union areas thrown into one large area, we entirely lose that close touch and become much more like the area of a county; and one knows that a county council is infinitely further away in feeling from the local inhabitants than a rural district council or board of guardians. We want that close personal touch and close personal supervision which the present areas give, and I suggest that what we need is an adjustment of boundaries rather than a reconstruction of the whole area. I am not at all wedded to the wording of this Amendment, but I hope the Minister will consider, between now and the time when this Bill comes up in another place, whether he cannot do something for us in this direction. I do not speak on behalf of any association of county councils or Poor Law unions, and am merely giving my own personal opinion, but I can say that a great deal of opposition at present existing in the counties would be quietened down if the Minister could do something towards meeting us in the direction indicated in the Amendment.

Marquess of HARTINGTON

I beg to second the Amendment.

I hope that this Amendment will be accepted. The Parliamentary Secretary will see that it commits him to nothing definitely, but is only an instruction, which need not necessarily be carried out. I think, however, that it would be of very great value if this added instruction could be put into the Bill. I believe the intention, which is visible through the Bill, to alter drastically the present union areas, dates back some way into the history of the Bill. As we know from yesterday's Debate, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) had the really astonishing hardihood to own to the paternity of this miserable foundling of a Bill, it was started here in his time some years ago. It was apparently begotten by him, or by some hon. Member on his side, adopted by the party opposite, and is now being foisted upon us.

During the years which have elapsed since the Bill came into existence, conditions in the countryside have altered from what they were. When the Bill was first thought of the railways had profoundly altered the nature of the countryside, and the roads had ceased to a very considerable extent to be the main arteries of locomotion in the country. The present union areas, of course, were framed before the railways had taken that very great part in the life of the country. Within the last few years, however, since this Bill began to be thought about, we have seen a further change back, so that the roads are now once more the main arteries of life in the country, and the railway has ceased to a great extent to be the means by which people get about in the country districts. When the railways were the chief means by which people moved about in the country districts, there was a very strong case for making a wholesale alteration in the union areas, but I submit that that is no longer so, and I hope very much that the hon. Gentleman will be able to accept this Amendment, which certainly cannot do any harm, and may conceivably do some good.

Sir K. WOOD

Perhaps I might say just a word about the paternity of this Rill. It is a good Bill, and many people, naturally, claim to be the authors of it. So far as my studies are concerned, I believe that at any rate the man who was first responsible for the main ideas in this Bill—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I was about to call the Noble Lord (Marquess of. Harrington) to order for discussing these matters of paternity, but his remarks on the subject were not very long, and he soon passed to other matters.

Sir K. WOOD

I very much regret that I cannot see my way to advise the House to accept the Amendment. The Clause says: In making schemes under this Section regard shall he had to the population and rateable value of the rating areas which will be affected by the scheme and to the desirability that each assessment area shall have an administrative centre which is appro- priate for the carrying out of the work of assessment in the area and convenient for the attendance of the persons interested therein. Without in any way desiring to say anything against the interests my hon. Friends represent, those are really the matters to which we must have regard in making a scheme of this kind. I do not think, as suggested in this Amendment, that in making schemes under this Clause we should start off by having regard to the desirability of adopting existing boundaries. Many hon. Members will agree that we have endeavoured to meet interests which have been put forward by both my hon. Friends. I do not think it would be in keeping with the scheme and it would be holding out something which I do not think ought to be taken into account in making a scheme under this Clause if the Amendment were accepted. The Clause sets out those matters which we ought to take into consideration in considering a scheme of this kind, and while I should very much like to meet my hon. Friends, I am afraid this is not appropriate to this part of the Bill.

Mr. SCURR

I want to assure the Noble Lord that we on this side have no desire to foist this Bill upon him and those who think with him. On the contrary, we have suggested on more than one occasion that the Government should withdraw it.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

We are now talking about boundaries.

Mr. SCURR

The Amendment seems to me to be absolutely meaningless. It is a desire to retain old boundaries, which at the time they came into existence were no doubt of benefit to the community. They represented certain local interests and, to a very large extent, owing to changes in industry and in population, these old local interests have gone. It is necessary to create new authorities. After all, it was necessary in 1834 to create new authorities under the Poor Law Reform Bill, and under this Bill we shall also have to create new authorities. Simply to stand for the old idea that because there was a boundary down a certain street or at a certain fence or a certain road is absurd. I am pleased to recognise, after all, that on this occasion the Minister has had the common sense to reject the Amendment and to stand by the Clause as it is on the Paper.

Mr. BECKETT

I am very glad the Minister has decided not to accept the Amendment, and I hope the more reactionary Members on the other side will not insist on pressing it, because it is not going to help any kind of administration of justice. It is merely going to be a machine for perpetrating injustice. In my own town for many years we have suffered from a bite out of the middle of our territory, dating back from the days of feudalism, by a larger town on our flank, and we certainly feel that anomalies of that sort ought to be rectified.

Marquess of HARTINGTON

The hon. Member must be aware that there is abundant machinery now for altering undesirable boundaries. They are altered constantly. We are not suggesting that they should be stabilised where they are undesirable.

Mr. BECKETT

I am aware of that, and the Noble Lord is also quite aware of the extreme difficulty and expense of getting that machinery to function where on one side you have an extremely poor town and on the other a very wealthy city. My sole object in rising to oppose the Amendment is to see that no further difficulties beyond those we already have to face are added to our task in recapturing our own property, because all the arguments we have heard from the Mover about us not being in touch with the land, meaning, I assume, having no historical sense of the importance of our townships and our boundaries, is really quite good party scoring but has very little foundation in the realities of the case. It may be quite true that we did not sell land to the railways at quite such high prices as some of the people who are in touch with the land, but that does not prevent us seeing the geographical importance of the railways and the road service and being anxious to adjust our boundaries not in accord with any old feudal considerations, but with new commercial and geographical conditions. I am glad the Government have refused to accept the Amendment, and I very much hope the backwoodsmen will not press it any further.

Captain WATERHOUSE

I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will not withdraw. I am very loth to find myself in opposition to the party behind me, but on this occasion, although I differ from them, I am "agin the Government." The fact of the matter is that I entirely agree with the arguments and the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I am all for doing everything possible to retain ancient boundaries. The Noble Lord may speak for the Hartington quarter, but I am thinking of Staffordshire. There we have five Hundreds. They have existed ever since the year 700 A.D. and I really regret the way in which these old Hundreds are being broken down and we are getting instead these artificial smaller areas and different boundaries. The old boundaries of which we are speaking were laid down along the old Roman roads and old historical landmarks. They are practically dying out from our local administration, and I think it would be a great advantage if we got back to these historical boundaries when we are discussing these assessment areas. After all, the assessment area is not the area of administration. It is merely an area for selecting the committee that is to look after and check the valuation lists, and I do not see why, for a purpose such as that, we should not have the historical sense as well as the practical, political sense of the moment, They can combine on this occasion and here is, if there ever was, an opportunity for using the old Hundreds as the boundaries of these assessment committees. They will be known at once because, after all, the Hundred boundary endures in people's minds nearly as much as the county boundary. If it were merely stated that the assessment area for North Staffordshire was a particular Hundred, there would be no need for advertisements in the papers. Everyone would know the parishes included in it and the area itself would be admirably suited for exactly the purpose intended by these assessment committees. While I speak of Staffordshire, the same thing refers to most of the counties where you have the old Hundred division. What could be more suitable than that the Hundred should be the boundary for this purpose? All the difficulties about the areas would vanish by a general acceptance of the Hundred as the natural unit for valuation. The boroughs are ruled out from this consideration, because they have their own assessment committees, but where you have the old Hundred, that ought to be accepted as the boundary for the other areas. That would be a happy way out of the difficulty in which we find ourselves, and a happy solution for the Government. I congratulate the Noble Lord on having the historic sense.

Mr. FENBY

I think the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has shown remarkable ability in supporting an argument which he has not had the opportunity of hearing. I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on declining to accept the Amendment. I have every respect for historical traditions and boundaries, but that was not the only argument of the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment. I think he said that the County Council was not in such close personal touch as some other people he mentioned. I am very glad that the Government has introduced a Bill containing a principle which gets us away from the too-close personal touch of those whom my hon. and gallant Friend mentioned, when he said that he not only wanted a geographical boundary but personal influence at the same time.

Captain WATERHOUSE

I said authorities.

Mr. FENBY

That does not alter the point which I am making. I will take the word "authorities" and deal with the point. As an administrator of a public authority, may I tell the House exactly how these interests and authorities work? The authority of which I am a member bought a 300-acre farm for small holdings. One field was left to the owner who had been farming before. The authority split up the area into 50 farms of less acreage in small holdings, and built houses. When the authority came along to assess it, two men, one with 50 acres and another with 10 acres, were asked to pay as much as the owner of the whole 300 acres had paid before we took it over for small holdings. The sequel was that the one field left in the hands of the man from whom we bought the farm had not been increased in assessment by one single halfpenny. The Bill puts us on to a higher level of public interest than that. What we are concerned about is to get on to a higher and purer level of valuation and rating than we had with these old authorities, and I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on refusing to accept the Amendment.

Mr. LANSBURY

I am very sorry to disagree with my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. It is said that extremes meet. I have heard it said that if you scratch the extremist Socialist you will find a Tory, and vice versa. I suppose the right hon. and gallant Member has given us an example of that to-night. I do not think much of the courage of the two hon. Gentlemen opposite, in wishing to run away from an Amendment which they moved with so much vigour. I thought that, at last, we had got one of the tame pussies to stand up for something in which he believed, when I heard the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment, but, apparently, like the rest of the party, he has been well drilled, and when the time comes he will vote against his own Amendment.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

We are dealing with the question of boundaries.

Mr. LANSBURY

I am against the existing boundaries for this reason, that always when I hear speeches like those which we have heard to-night from the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment I try to visualise what it really means. In the past, the rich people have cut up the rating divisions in such a fashion as to put the burdens on the poorest of the people and themselves to go scot free. I have no doubt that for the landed interests it would be an excellent arrangement to maintain the present position of affairs. As we are arguing boundaries, why not suggest that we should go back to the old Roman province and put up another Hadrian's wall, and have that sort of area. If we are going back, let us do it thoroughly. I want to look forward and to bring into assessment rich and poor districts together. That has not been done in the past and it does not happen to-day.

All the. trouble in London has been caused because the people represented by the party opposite cut up London into 28 distinct boroughs, and tried to impose on each borough the business of attending to its own life, apart from ail the rest. Every one of the arguments that we have heard to-night are exactly the same kind of arguments that were used to put the East End into the plight it is in now. It is the old idea of looking after old traditions. I have heard people in Bow talk about the privilege of maintaining traditions, and so on. When the traditions are starvation and poverty, I do not want to maintain them at all. This Amendment is typical of the same well-to-do people in this country who want to preserve the old arrangements whereby there are compartments for the rich and compartments for the poor.

Mr. ATTLEE

This seems to me an extraordinary valueless Amendment, and I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary has found it in his power to resist something, at last, for hitherto he has been overloading this Bill with one sort of declamatory statement or another. This Amendment provides that when they are framing their new boundaries, if they can find an old boundary that is suitable they must keep it. That is, obviously, a sensible thing to do.

Captain WATERHOUSE

Hear, hear; but they will not do it.

Mr. ATTLEE

No doubt my hon. and gallant Friend is better acquainted with the personnel of the County Councils in rural areas than I am, and I gather that he has a lower opinion of their intelligence than I have. It may he that in Staffordshire they will go back to the old Hundreds mentioned by my right hon. and gallant Friend, but I could point out districts where there should be some adjustment, for instance, on the borders of Gloucestershire and Worcestershire. I hope they will not have regard to the existing boundaries there. Where there are old boundaries which are the best, I presume that they will keep to those boundaries. If not, they must have a better personnel on the council, if they cannot trust those who are on them now to do the sensible and obvious thing.

Amendment negatived.

CLAUSE 17.—(Assessment Committees.)

Major RUGGLES-BRISE

I beg to move, in page 19, lines 26 and 27, to leave out the words "subject to the provisions of this section."

Sub-section (5) on page 20 provides for two persons who are commissioners for the general purposes of income tax being appointed on the Assessment Committee. It was decided in the Committee stage that the revenue officers should be deleted from the Bill as originally drafted, and this Amendment is consequential on the dropping of the revenue officers from the Bill, and the three Amendments which follow this are equally consequential.

Marquess of HARTINGTON

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

I am happy to advise the House to accept this Amendment, as the revenue officers have been deleted from the Bill in the Committee stage.

9.0 P.M.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I advise the House not to accept this Amendment. My advice is based upon the sound advice of the hon. Member now in charge of the Bill. When the Bill was introduced it included not only the Commissioners of Income Tax, but also the revenue officers. We shall have an opportunity later on of demanding the reasons which actuated the Government in eliminating the revenue officers, but why we should eliminate the Commissioners of Income Tax I fail to understand. It is true that the Commissioners of Income Tax, if they are on the Assessment Committee, may bring into the assessment roll of the area some hint on the valuation for Schedule A of the Income Tax. That is precisely what we want. We want to see that the valuation is an accurate valuation, and therefore a whole valuation, and therefore linked up with that central valuation which the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) rightly slated was the object of the Labour party in all valuations. If we cannot get a central valuation, if we cannot get the revenue officers to keep the local valuation committees up to scratch, let us at least retain the assistant commissioners of Income Tax, who do know approximately what is the value for Income Tax purposes, and who will bring the Treasury mind to bear on these local valuations. I know the objection of the hon. Member who moved this Amendment, and of hon. Members opposite, to any hint of central control of the valuation. I know that they object to the Treasury valuing, they object to the revenue officers advising the committees, and they object to these commissioners being there but their objection is our reason for urging that a check should be kept upon the valuation. There should be some sort of co-ordination of these valuations, something approximately fair between one district and another, and particularly between one class of ratepayers and another. If these words go out Sub-section (5) becomes of no effect, and for that reason I beg the House to register in the Lobby their disapproval of this proposal, as one further effort to riddle the Bill as originally introduced and reduce the valuation which will now be produced by this Bill to an absolute farce.

Mr. LANSBURY

Any of us who have sat on assessment committees will agree that the great difficulty which we always had was to find some line on which we could deal in an equitable manner with all the persons who came before us. Any man who has ever sat on an assessment committee will agree that the one man who comes there independently, with no axe to grind, is the representative of the Inland Revenue. The hon. Member for South Poplar (Mr. March) will agree with me that the representatives of the Inland Revenue are the one set of people who have given us great assistance, when we have had them, in finding out what we required to know. There are occasions when you have very tricky people in London, and very clever lawyers arguing for them, and it is very useful to have someone who is absolutely independent to deal with them. I do not know why hon. Members should object. Personally, we are in favour of a national system of valuation, safeguarding what we regard as the interests of different people by persons who are absolutely independent of all local influences and interests. But short of that I think that it is a most excellent provision to have these representatives of the Inland Revenue, and the Income Tax people, and the hon. Member sins against the light of his own experience in accepting an Amendment of this kind.

Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN

In view of the reference to the General Commissioners of Income Tax, it is time that someone should inform the House what their functions are. The two last speakers have alluded to the General Com- missioners of Income Tax as servants or representatives of the Inland Revenue.

Mr. LANSBURY

No.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

No.

Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN

I believe that those are the words used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). I think the House will have gathered that, from what has been said. As a General Commissioner of Income Tax, I would point out that the functions and duties of a General Commissioner are to hear appeals and to stand between the taxpayer and the Inland Revenue. The idea of including them was if and when the Revenue officer was a member of the body to which they would also be parties, but as the Revenue officer has ceased to be a figure under the Bill, the General Commissioners of Income Tax have no longer a function to perform. That slight explanation may put right some of the doubts which hon. Members have expressed.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

While we have been hearing during the past few days of the various interests that ought to be preserved and oared for, and of the general honesty of overseers and members of assessment committees, the wonderful function they have performed in the past, and so forth, my experience, at least as a member of one authority, is that it has been the tradition never to permit a member of the party to which I belong to become a member of the assessment committee, and if only for the purpose of safeguarding the interests of the unrepresented it seems to me that the two Commissioners from the Income Tax Department, or from any Department, who would view the problem of assessment from an impartial point of view, would indeed be a safeguard for the whole of the ratepayers in the districts that have no representation at present. I am referring to an authority where perhaps half a dozen men represent a greater rateable value than do 26 members sitting on that same local authority, but because of the numerical strength of certain representatives the people who come from the thickly populated areas have never got representation on the assessment committee. The assessment committee consists of representatives of colliery companies, of land-owning interests, and of private interests in every sense, and the urban population get no representation at all. It is fair to say that there is a great deal of mistrust of the existing assessment committees, and that if a safeguard were inserted or retained in the Bill it would

create more confidence in many areas. For that reason the Government ought not to accept the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 290.

Division No. 402.]	AYES.	[9.10 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Harris, Percy A.	Sitch, Charles H.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hayday, Arthur	Smillie, Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard	Hayes, John Henry	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Baker, Walter	Hirst, G. H.	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Barnes, A.	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Barr, J.	Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Batey, Joseph	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Stamford, T. W.
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Stephen, Campbell
Broad, F. A.	John, William (Rhondda West)	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Bromfield, William	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Taylor, R. A.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Kelly, W. T.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Buchanan, G.	Kennedy, T.	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Cape, Thomas	Lansbury, George	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Charleton, H. C.	Lawson, John James	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Clowes, S.	Lee, F.	Thurtle, E.
Cluse, W. S.	Lindley, F. W.	Tinker, John Joseph
Connolly, M.	Livingstone, A. M.	Townend, A. E.
Cove, W. G.	Lowth, T.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lunn, William	Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, Hugh	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Viant, S. P.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Mackinder, W.	Wallhead, Richard C.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	MacLaren, Andrew	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)	Warne, G. H.
Day, Colonel Harry	March, S.	Watson. W. M. (Dumfermline)
Dennison, R.	Montague, Frederick	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duncan, C.	Morris, R. H.	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Murnin, H.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Fenby, T. D.	Oliver, George Harold	Weir, L. M.
Gillett, George M.	Palin, John Henry	Westwood, J.
Gosling, Harry	Paling, W.	Whiteley, W.
Graham. D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Potts, John S.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Greenall, T.	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Williams, David (Swansea. E.)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Riley, Ben	Williams, T. (York Don Valley)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Ritson, J.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Groves, T.	Rose, Frank H.	Windsor, Walter
Grundy, T. W.	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter	Wright, W.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Scrymgeour, E.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Scurr, John
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Shiels, Dr. Drummond	Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. T.
Hardie, George D.	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	Henderson.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel	Blades, Sir George Rowland	Cassels, J. D.
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Blundell, F. N.	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Albery, Irving James	Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Brass, Captain W.	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Brassey, Sir Leonard	Christie, J. A.
Apsley, Lord	Briscoe, Richard George	Clarry, Reginald George
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Clayton, G. C.
Astor, Viscountess	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Cobb, Sir Cyril
Atholl, Duchess of	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Cooper, A. Duff
Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Buckingham, Sir H.	Cope, Major William
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Couper, J. B
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Bullock, Captain M.	Courtauld, Major J. S.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Burman, J. B.	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Bennett, A. J.	Burton, Colonel H. W.	Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)
Berry, Sir George	Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Bethell, A.	Butt, Sir Alfred	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Betterton, Henry B.	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Dalkeith, Earl of
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Caine, Gordon Hall	Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Campbell, E. T.	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Hudson, R. S (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Remnant, Sir James
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Hume, Sir G. H.	Rentoul, G. S.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Hurd, Percy A.	Rice, Sir Frederick
Dixey, A. C.	Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Drewe, C.	Jacob, A. E.	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Duckworth, John	Jephcott, A. R.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Rye, F. G.
Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Salmon, Major I.
Elveden, Viscount	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
England, Colonel A.	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Erskine Lord (Somerset Weston-s.-M.)	Lamb, J. Q.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Sandon, Lord
Everard, W. Lindsay	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Savery, S. S.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Fermoy, Lord	Loder, J. de V.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Fielden, E. B.	Looker, Herbert William	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Finburgh, S.	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Skelton, A. N.
Fleming, D. P.	Lougher, L.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Forrest, W.	MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Smithers, Waldron
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Fraser, Captain Ian	Macintyre, Ian	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	McLean, Major A.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Macmillan, Captain H.	Storry Deans, R.
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Stott, Lieut. Colonel W. H.
Ganzoni, Sir John.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Gates, Percy	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Gault Lieut.-Col Andrew Hamilton	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Sugden Sir Wilfrid
Gee, Captain R.	Malone, Major P. B.	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Margesson, Captain D.	Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Goff, Sir Park	Meller, R. J.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Grace, John	Merriman, F. B.	Tinne, J. A.
Grant, J. A.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-	Turton, Edmund Russborough
Gretton, Colonel John	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Vaughan Morgan, Col K. P.
Grotrian, H. Brent	Moles, Thomas	Waddington, R.
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Warrender, Sir Victor
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Nelson, Sir Frank	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Hammersley, S. S.	Neville, R. J.	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Hanbury, C.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Watts, Dr. T.
Harland, A.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Wells, S. R.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Harrison, G. J. C.	Nuttall, Ellis	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Hartington, Marquess of	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Wiggins, William Martin
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Haslam, Henry C.	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Hawke, John Anthony	Owen, Major G.	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Pennefather, Sir John	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Penny, Frederick George	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Wise, Sir Fredric
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Womersley, W. J.
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Philipson, Mabel	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Hilton, Cecil	Pleiou, D. P.	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Pitcher, G.	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Holland, Sir Arthur	Preston, William	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Holt, Captain H. P.	Radford, E. A.	Wragg, Herbert
Homan, C. W. J.	Raine, W.	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Ramsden, E
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Rees, Sir Beddoe	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)	Captain Viscount Curzon and Lord
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Remer, J. R.	Stanley.

Mr. ATTLEE

I beg to move, in page 19, line 27, after the word "persons," to insert the words "being members of such council."

This Amendment is designed to get persons on the assessment committee who shall be elected persons responsible to their constituents. In this Clause every possible endeavour has been made to get nominees instead of elected persons. The assessment committee is to consist of a number of persons who are to be appointed by the council of the borough —there is nothing to say that they shall be elected members—and some of them are to be appointed to represent boards of guardians—again there is nothing to say that they shall be elected members— and. finally, not less than one-fifth are quite definitely to be persons who are neither members of the council of the borough nor members of any "such board of guardians as aforesaid." To anyone who followed the discussions in Committee it was quite illuminating to find the extraordinary distrust of elected persons exhibited by Members of the party opposite. Most of them had a wonderful invention which they were constantly bringing forward known as "the independent man." He was a figment of the imagination, like "the economic man." I tried to trace him down and to find out his characteristics. I found that when a distinguished industrialist talked of "the independent man," he meant an industrialist, and when the landowner talked of "the independent man "he meant a landowner. I suppose if we had had a licensed victualler there he would have said that "the independent man" must be a licensed victualler. The man who was regarded as "the independent man" by various hon. Members was in every case the man whom they thought friendly to the particular interests which they represented.

The object of this Amendment is to try to restore the important function of assessment to elected representatives. Of course it will be said "Why trouble about this? The council are to appoint and they will appoint people of the same colour as the council, and a Socialist council will appoint Socialists." It may be so, but we are not dealing with that particular point. What we contend is that these members should be responsible to the electorate. They should be elected first. We do not wish them to be appointed from outside and not answerable to the electors for their actions. I had hoped that we had departed from that system in local government with the passing away of ex-officio guardians and that we were trusting more and more to election. The proposed constitution of these committees is one of the biggest insults ever offered to our great cities and it must go very much against the grain of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to have such an insult flung at such a great city as Birmingham which is a county borough. While the council, even of Birmingham, may appoint a number of persons one quarter must represent boards of guardians and one-fifth must be neither members of the council of the borough nor of the boards of guardians. Thus only a bare majority is left even when the appointments are made by the Birmingham City Councils.

That surely docs not represent the considered opinion of an eminent municipal administrator like the right hon. Gentleman. It represents a concession wrung from him by those whom I can hardly describe as his supporters. I should lather call them his rural coadjutors, or perhaps I should say masters. The result is that instead of getting a responsible committee we are getting a committee on which there need not be a single representative who has come before the electors, or who is answerable to anybody except at second hand to the council or the boards of guardians. I am not making; any great point as to the representation of the boards of guardians because we understand that the right hon. Gentleman, pace his coadjutors on those benches, is going to kill the boards of guardians next year, and their representatives will no doubt disappear. What I am objecting to is that these persons indicated in the Clause should merely be "appointed persons," and my Amendment is that these appointed persons should also be members of the council. I believe by that means we would secure experienced persons. We shall probably have the argument trotted out again that members of a spending authority should not be on an assessment authority. There is nothing in that as a matter of fact, because in the midst of a great deal of muddled history that we had yesterday from two hon. and learned Members was an entire ignoring of the fact that a borough to-day can, if it choose, make its own valuation, and does in many cases. This represents an attack on democratic self-government introduced by those who have never been really in favour of representative government and who endeavour in every possible way to try to keep this very important committee in the hands of a small group of mainly interested persons.

Mr. RILEY

I beg to second the Amendment. In doing so may I empha- sise the point put by my hon. Friend who moved it in order to underline it for the consideration of the House. As the Clause now stands there need not be a single representative of a municipal council upon an assessment committee. When the Minister presented the Bill in the first instance it provided that it was upon the councils that should rest the responsibility of assessing and valuing property for rating purposes. He has had to give way, and so now we have a Clause which completely defeats—I want to emphasise this point—the very purpose the Minister had in view. What were the main principles of the Bill as presented in Committee? One of them was that for the future the responsibility for assessing property for local expenditure should be placed upon those responsible public bodies such as town councils, urban district councils, popularly elected and responsible to the people, councils charged under the various Acts of Parliament since 1834, under the Municipal Corporations Act, with carrying out great expenditure on public health, public highways and, later, upon education. Having to raise these sums lor the great cities in enormous amounts, and still to visualise that with the growth of the municipalities the duty not only of having to spend the ratepayers' money, the duty of assessing property and in regard to valuation should rest with the publicly-elected bodies. The Minister has given way. We now have a Clause which gives municipal councils no definite lead that they are to be the assessment authority at all. May I remind the House that as the Clause now stands, it means that you may have, for the sake of illustration, as assessment committee of 16 persons in assessment areas of a great municipal authority of a county borough. According to this Bill as it now stands, that county borough may, if it is prepared, appoint nine persons on that assessment committee from its own council. As a matter of fact it need not appoint one. This Clause allows the council to appoint outsiders. It may appoint the whole 16, if it thinks proper to do so, not one of whom would be elected by responsible ratepayers. That is a travesty of modern representative government. It may appoint nine out of 16. On the other hand, under this Clause they must have not less than four mem- bers from the guardians. They may have six guardians and fewer councillors. They must have at least one-fifth from persons who are neither members of the council nor of the guardians, which means that the very best a council can do in discharging its responsibility to the ratepayers under this Clause is to have nine out of 16. You can take 32 if you like, but take a committee of 16. The Bill says, you must have one-fourth representative of the guardians, not less than one-fifth neither guardians nor councillors. I submit you get seven, therefore, as a minimum number, and you cannot have more than nine out of 16. Our Amendment seeks to embody in the Bill that the persons appointed must be members of the council, so we are safeguarding the rights of the council. I hope the House will accept the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

This matter was the subject of a great deal of consideration and discussion in the Committee which considered this Bill, and I venture to suggest that the aim of most members of the Committee who took part in the discussion was to secure the best kind of committee for the particular purposes of the Bill. In the final arrangement which was made, and which appears in this Clause, it will be seen that the council of the borough are to appoint a certain number of persons to form an assessment committee. The only obligation upon them is that one-fourth of them should be appointed to represent the board of guardians, and one-fifth should be persons who are neither members of the council nor members of the board of guardians. I will immediately take the point about the guardians. There is nothing here which will prevent any borough council nominating members of the boards of guardians themselves. In other words, they can, and I dare say would, nominate members of the board of guardians who. in their turn, have been elected to the position. As regards the one-fifth, it was considered in Committee that it would be a very useful thing that the borough councillors themselves should be able to appoint to those committees people who had experience, but who had not of necessity had to go in for elections of various characters, and contribute their advice and help to a committee of this kind. I venture to say that is not an unreasonable view to take up with regard to a committee of this kind. If Members will look at page 63, they will see the proviso: The terms of office of each member of an assessment committee shall be such period not exceeding five years, as the body of persons by whom that member is appointed may determine. In other words, if the particular borough council desires to keep authority over its assessment committee, it must appoint for a particular period within the terms of that provision. Hon Members just now were saying there was an attack upon borough councils in this connection, but I venture to say that borough councils can be trusted to make the necessary appointments under this Clause. If we believe in local government and in democracy, as hon. Members opposite would have us believe, we can trust these particular councils to appoint suitable people to perform these functions. With regard to the Amendment, it would mean, if carried, that boards of guardians would have no representatives as such on these committees.

Mr. ATTLEE

I think the hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting the position.

Sir K. WOOD

Why this particular part of the Clause was included, namely, "not less than one-quarter shall be persons appointed to represent the boards of guardians," was to ensure that people who had had experience in that form of local government so closely connected with the work of assessment committees should be certain to have representatives on those bodies.

Mr. ATTLEE

There is nothing to say they must be guardians, and they might know nothing about it.

Sir K. WOOD

If these borough councils have the right of appointing representatives of the boards of guardians, I think we must trust them sufficiently to think that they will, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, appoint members of the boards of guardians themselves, and in fact, as my right hon. Friend the Minister reminds me, they have to be nominated by the boards of guardians, and there need be no hesitation as to the type of men who will be appointed to represent the guardians. Therefore, under this Clause, we do ensure—I do not know whether hon. Members opposite desire us to ensure—definite representation to the boards of guardians of the country, and I venture to say that that is a right and proper thing to do and that it will assist in getting a good committee in this connection. I think a good many people to-day will agree with the view that there are a number of men up and down the country who, perhaps, may not care to go through the rough and tumble of a contested election, but who nevertheless have had a good deal of experience, and I am ready to admit that some provision should be made for persons of that kind to serve on these committees. The great thing we have to keep before us in forming a body of this kind is to get the best body we can and to get as many interests represented as we can. [Laughter.] I do not know why hon. Members opposite should laugh. I do not know why interests should not be represented, especially interests of the character mentioned here, and I ask the House to reject the Amendment and to retain in the Bill the Clause, which I believe, under the arrangements which are there made, will secure the best kind of authority for dealing with this important work.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I think the hon. Member is mistaken as to the scope of the Amendment. The Amendment says that those people who are nominated by the borough council shall be members of the borough council, and I should imagine that in most cases they would be so, but his argument is that it would be desirable that they should nominate people not of their own members. He thinks you would get a. better representation on the assessment committee if they were people who were not to be held responsible to the electors of the borough. I differ from him, but our difference is constitutional. He believes in the advantage of having people in positions of this sort who cannot be called to account by the electors. That is the undemocratic point of view. We believe that it is an advantage and a better scheme to have men on all responsible bodies who can be called to account. Human nature being what it is, if you want to prevent interests looking after their interests instead of looking after the public interest, you have got to have men who can be called to account.

The whole advantage of Parliament over an autocracy is that we can be called to account. The one check upon human nature is the fear of the consequences. It stiffens our conscience and strengthens our rectitude to know that we can be called to account, and I think we should apply that principle to these assessment committees even more certainly than we should apply it to Members of Parliament, because these members on the assessment committees are in a semi-judicial position, and, therefore, it is far more important that they should be called to account in the public interest than that they should find themselves in these more or lees judicial positions accountable only to their own interests or to the interest in which they have been put there. It is an old controversy. It has gone on ever since we started any form of government by representation at all, and I should have said that the wisdom of the ages and the traditions of this country ought to have directed the hon. Member towards pinning his faith to democracy and responsibility, and avoiding the dangerous pitfall that has always been present to every person who wants to administer efficiently, of accepting the idea that you can select the man, and that once he is selected he will live up to your expectations, whereas the only way to make him live up to the principles of the public interest is to see that the public have the opportunity of calling him to account at elections.

Commander WILLIAMS

The right hon. Member for Nowcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has apparently been called to account in the last few minutes By the leader of his party, who has been in here for such a short time, because apparently he has now at last come back to the idea that the elected representative is a first-class institution. Only a few minutes ago he was pointing out to the House the wonders and the benefits of the Commissioners of Income Tax, of whom I have never yet heard as elected representatives in any way whatever. I am glad to see that he has been reformed by his eminently worthy leader, who has been able to call him to heel so quickly and definitely for once in his life, but my object in rising is really not to deal with the nice little essays we have had from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite on democratic institutions, because, after all, we all know what they mean by it. It is very nice when it suite them, but they get up and say something else when it does not.

My real object is to try to elicit from the Government—I do not think I have interfered with them very much on this Bill, and I have voted fairly often for them—what is actually going to happen eventually to the boards of guardians. If, as I understand, we are going to have one-quarter of this body selected from boards of guardians, there seems to be a sort of understanding that sooner or later the boards of guardians shall disappear, and when that happens—whether it is right or wrong, I am not arguing at the present moment—what are you going to put in their place? We might, after all, have had an answer to that question. If we are to legislate in this way, and we are putting them in for three years—or whatever the time may be—I think while we are taking up time with this Measure, it is rather a pity, when we are building up these committees, that we should not endeavour to make them valuable public institutions.

Mr. LANSBURY

I want to point out that the reason we object, as we did in the last discussion, was because we knew it was going to be co-operation. If we had a list of the persons that were going to be put on the committee we might consider it, but in doing what is proposed to-night in this Clause we really are going back. I do not quite understand the Parliamentary Secretary taking up the attitude he has taken on the subject, because he knows perfectly well that the present arrangement in London—and this Bill may some day apply to London—by which the council elects the valuation committee and the assessment committee has worked extremely well. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The Parliamentary Secretary knows that the arrangement has worked extremely well in London. I cannot for the life of me understand why you should want to have some of the committee from outside. It is suggested that hon. Members opposite want to bring in people of experience. Experience of what? In owning property or in having some vested interests? I should like to know. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I will sit down if some hon. Member will get up and tell me who is the person. It is not the labourer you are thinking of. Of that I am certain! It will be the people certainly who are interested in property. If you are going to put up a committee to deal with the assessments, or any other public work, and if you desire to get that work done properly, there is only one way of doing it; that is to have people responsible to the electors. It has been suggested that we are not trusting the councils. The difficulty is that if you say that the councils shall elect from the outside, well, they are bound to go outside, and they are limited to the number of people that can be called upon, certainly from the working class ranks to do this kind of work. You are just overloading the assessment committee with people who will have—I do not like to use the term "vested interests"—but a very considerable interest of that which will come up for assessment.

I want further to say this: That there are too many of this kind of committees set up—these kind of mixed committees of elected and non-elected persons. I do not believe any one of them works really satisfactorily. In London we have got a sort of hybrid body managing the docks, and they manage them in a perfectly unsatisfactory manner. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, in quite an unsatisfactory manner. [An HON. MEMBER: "Everybody knows it!"] Everyone at the East End, where the docks are, knows that they are worked in an unsatisfactory manner. We have no power over that authority because it is very largely made up of co-opted members. I am surprised at the action of the Parliamentary Secretary, and of the Minister himself. I should think that when the right hon. Gentleman gets back to Birmingham he will be very severely reproached for not trusting the elected representatives of the city in a matter of this kind.

Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON

It has been stated that certain of us on this side seem to be lacking in trust of the local authority, but surely that is a vague charge. At the present time the assessment committees are, I think, elected by the boards of guardians from their own members. Therefore why should you make this departure when you are re-arranging the machinery? Surely the principle of representative government is a sound one!

Captain BOURNE

I represent in the House a county borough, and I sincerely hope the Government will stick to their attitude on this Amendment. It seems to me that the argument of the other side is to the effect that you cannot trust the people elected by the local people when it comes to the exercise of their own discretion. There is nothing after all in this Clause which will prevent a county borough nominating members of their own council to act as the assessment committee. I cannot see why they should be prevented from nominating some members out-side if they think fit to do so. I myself believe that in the matter of the local government carried on in the counties, we should interfere as little as possible with the discretion of the councils.

Mr. SPENCER

The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has put forward the Amendment has based his case on two grounds. First, on the ground of efficiency, and secondly, that the council is the best body to elect these assessment committees. I think that is fairly stating the position. One would have had a very great deal more faith in any future assessment committee that may be set up if in the past the only guiding principle in regard to the assessment committee had been the question of efficiency. Everybody knows that up till now, whether labour men have been efficient or not, they have had the utmost difficulty in getting on to an assessment committee. If in the past that has been the position, and efficiency has not been the first consideration, but party interests, what guarantee have we, if this Clause goes through as it is, that we will get anything like fair representation upon these new committees that have got to be set up? I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that whether it is a Labour council, a Conservative council, a Liberal council, or a mixed council, the first consideration certainly should be efficiency in the people who are going to discharge the functions of the committee.

Great care, after all, should be taken to see that all interests, more of a political character than of a trade character, should be represented upon the committee. There is not a single thing in this Clause, if it passes, which will give us any guarantee whatever that these party interests are going to be represented. I would, in a minute, if the question were put to me: "Would you have fair representation upon these committees where you have got a purely Labour body, immediately say "No." I think it is in the interests of fair government, of pure government, that so far as humanly possible upon committees of this character you should get the widest and best possible interest you can. I would deprecate members of the assessment committee being all Labour men. Equally would I deprecate all of them being Conservatives. It is because I want to see upon these assessment committees representatives of the whole body politic that I feel certain this Amendment ought to have been accepted. I know the answer will be that, in effect, there is no difference between a council electing its own members and appointing persons from outside. I quite agree that the argument is against us there, because if it is a Conservative council it can, if it likes, appoint Conservatives from outside the council just as well as appointing Conservatives who are on the council; but what we have to remember is that there is nothing the British electorate detests more than finding that a man who has stood for municipal honours, and has been rejected, has been co-opted on to a committee. Very often one finds on the education committee and on other committees men who have been turned down by the electorate but have subsequently been co-opted. Take the case of two persons in a district, Conservatives if you like. One will be elected and the other will be unable to secure election, do what he will, because the people will not have him—even the Conservatives will not have him. Nevertheless, he is afterwards found upon a certain committee. Everybody resents that practice, and if the Bill goes through in its present form, with a council having the right to co-opt men from outside upon the assessment committee, we shall be forfeiting the confidence of the very people whose confidence we ought to seek to retain.

I feel certain we are doing the wrong thing, because, as the Clause will stand, there need not be a single man on the committee who is a member of any public body. The representatives of the guardians on that committee need not be guardians, for the guardians can appoint from outside. We might have an assessment committee made up of persons none of whom have been publicly elected. I do not think that is a proceeding which ought to be supported by this House. We ought to see to it that on any statutory committee there are at least a very substantial number of people who from time to time come before the public seeking their confidence. I understand from my Scottish friends that in Scotland this principle is part of the law, that there all members of assessment committees have to be publicly elected. If that is a sound and fair principle for Scotland, it should be good for the whole of the British Isles.

Mr. MARCH

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health said there was a good deal of discussion on this point in Committee, and that is quite true; but when the Bill was presented to the Committee it contained points which we are desirous of having in now. At that time the Bill proposed that the members of these committees should be elected members of the local authority, but that did not suit the friends or supposed supporters of the two Ministers on the Treasury Bench, and, in consequence, they had to retract. It was because there was a large amount of discussion in Committee that the representatives of the gentlemen on the other side brought pressure to bear upon those in charge of this Bill, who have had to give way. They have tried as far as possible to hoodwink the House of Commons by putting the words in such a way that they can now say that the councils and the boards of guardians can, if they like, appoint members of their own body on the committee. Let us be honest about it, and insert words stating plainly that the persons appointed are to be members of the council or the boards of guardians, and then the local authorities will know exactly where they are.

10.0 P.M.

That, however, does not suit hon. Members on the other side. They have had to give up the overseers, and think they will have something in their place. They are so confident that the overseers have always been so honest and honourable in doing what is right, that they are now seeking to secure the insertion of words "the council may nominate" and "the board of guardians may nominate." Nominate whom? People of experience, we have been told. I suppose they want to get back the overseers under another name, because they are the people who have had all the experience on these assessment committes in the country in the past, and I suppose they are the people who will come back on to these assessment committees if the Bill goes through in this way. I am quite certain that the Minister himself does not approve of this, because London has now worked for 26 years with assessment committees composed of elected members of the councils, and there has not been a great deal of worry and trouble amongst the people about being over assessed. If any of them have come forward with complaints they have always had the fullest opportunity of coming before the assessment committees.

In our borough we have had the assessment committees sitting day after day. The valuation list was made and was posted, and then people who thought they were over-assessed came before the assessment committee and presented their arguments, or had representatives to place their case before the committee. Their complaints have been considered, and I say here and now that ever since assessment committees have been formed in London, people have had every opportunity of coming before them, and most of them have gone away very well satisfied. I should say that we have had fewer appeals than any borough in London. I do not see why the London practice in regard to these committees should not be extended to the provinces, but the fact is that the landlords and the landowners and the Farmers' Union— [Interruption.] I was reading a paper the other day in which the Farmers' Union were gloating over what their members had been able to do in connection with the Ministry and with this very Bill—the points they had been able to gain in the interest of the farming community. If they say that in their own paper, they have got it in their own minds that it is going to be all right. I hope the House will support the Amendment.

Mr. BUCHANAN

Possibly I ought to apologise, as a Scottish Member, for intervening in an English Debate, but this House of Commons having refused Home Rule to Scotland I really do not think any apology is needed for taking part in the discussion. I would not have done so but for a reference made by the hon. Member for the Broxtowe Division (Mr. Spencer) to the Scottish example. I am surprised at the statement of the Under-Secretary for Health that there are a large number of men up and down the country who, while they are not prepared to face the hurly burly of a local election, are, nevertheless, extremely able men for the work of these committees. But may I remind the hon. Gentleman that that ought not to stop at assessment committees? Why not apply it to the Cabinet? As a matter of fact, it is not good logic at all. If a person comes here or goes on a public authority, there is no action that he takes on that body for which he ought not to be held responsible. We have had the working of valuation committees in Scotland for a considerable number of years. In the Glasgow Town Council, a body of which I was a member for over four years, the valuation committee is entirely composed of members of the Town Council, and the experience there is that that body works as well as any other body could possibly do. After all, the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) is correct in saying that this business of co-opting Members is really not meant to suit Labour, but it is due to the fear that Labour might capture certain of those places.

I know the Parliamentary Secretary may say that they can elect whom they like, but the board of guardians can have along with their own number a reactionary group. Moreover, an elected person who goes on to an assessment committee only goes on for three years, but the non-elected person goes on for five years. The Parliamentary Secretary may dispute that, but that is my understanding of it. If that be wrong, I shall be glad to hear from the Minister of Health, who can speak with authority or. this particular Measure. This has worked well for a long number of years in Scotland, and it is an example. I do not see why we should have all the privileges, and not extend them to this country, and I hope that English Members will certainly press this fundamental principle and necessity. It may be that an assessment committee may be bad, but if the democracy cares to elect bad people, it ought to suffer. I suppose hon. Members opposite will say, "Look what your constituency returns!" But it is relative. What may be bad to me may be good to some other person, or vice versa. If on the public health authority, and many other important bodies, only elected persons are allowed to interfere in those matters, the same principle ought to be extended to the valuation committee. I hope hon. Members on this side will keep up the pressure on the Government, because I looked at the original Bill 10 minutes ago, and I found that it contained this proposal. Why was it dropped? No reason has been given to-night. It may have been because of pressure by agricultural Members or landlords. I would hardly think, even with my opinion of the Parliamentary Secretary, that he would give way to agricultural pressure. An hon. Friend suggests that it might have been done when he was not looking, but, apart from that, there is no adequate reason why we should depart from the principle, and I hope at least Members on this side will press this to a Division.

Mr. SCURR

Throughout the whole of the Debate on this Measure, we have seen on the opposite side a continuous distrust of the elected person. At the very beginning of the Report stage, when an Amendment was moved by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), the argument he was putting forward all the time was in regard to the authority being the spending authority, and he contended that was the wrong principle. If there be any validity in that argument, we ought to got rid of all valuation committees, and put the matter, not in the hands of local authorities, but in the hands of skilled professional valuers, who would be in every sense of the word independent. But the Government do not do that. They now propose a Clause which will allow any number of persons, who have never under any circumstances faced the electors, of whom the electors know nothing at all, to do this very particular and important work. I am very much astounded at a Conservative Government resisting this Amendment.

Reference must be made again to the position of London. After all, the Metropolitan Borough Councils were estab- lished by the London Government Act, which was brought in and passed by a Conservative Government. That Act took it away from the Boards of Guardians, except in one or two instances where the Union and Borough Council were not coterminous, and passed it over to committees of the borough councils They considered that was a good thing, and I have never heard any criticism at all of the system that prevails in London Hon. Members opposite are always anxious that interests should be represented. They consider it perfectly fair that interests should have their say in an important matter like assessments. Our system at the present time permits interests to come forward for election. Whenever an election is approaching which will correspond with the quinquennial valuation in London, there is always, from the point of view of hon. Members opposite, an increase of a better personnel running as candidates for the borough council. We have a large number of persons representing the licensed victualling interest who come forward when the quinquennial valuation is approaching to devote their time to the interests of the people, in return for a representative or two on the council. We have representatives of the docks, shopkeepers and manufacturers, all anxious to get elected on to these councils', because they know how important it is that they should be there.

It is a good thing that these people are elected, because, instead of going on to deal simply with one particular thing, they are then compelled to turn their energy, ability and skill to all the other problems, such as housing, public health, transport and road-making. Here the Government do not trust those people. You will be able to have a committee selected from these people, but not one of them ever having gone to the electors and placed before them any programme, so that any person can be selected to go on to a body of this kind to assess the property of ratepayers in such a way that the community will never be able to have the opportunity of exercising the slightest judgment in regard to their action. It is absolutely undemocratic and a departure from the policy which the Conservative Government has always laid down. It is a destruction of local government, and I am quite prepared to go into the Division Lobby in support of this Amendment, because I think it is right and proper that the people should have a say in the selection of these people.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 296.

Division No. 403.]	AYES.	[10.16 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Hayday, Arthur	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Hayes, John Henry	Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Sitch, Charles H.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Smillie, Robert
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Hilton, Cecil	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Baker, Walter	Hirst, G. H.	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Barnes, A.	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Barr, J.	Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Snell, Harry
Batey, Joseph	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Briant, Frank	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stamford, T. W.
Broad, F. A.	Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Stephen, Campbell
Bromfield, William	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Kelly, W. T.	Taylor, R. A.
Buchanan, G.	Kennedy, T.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cape, Thomas	Lansbury, George	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Charleton, H. C.	Lawson, John James	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)
Clowes, S.	Lee, F.	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Cluse, W. S.	Lindley, F. W.	Thurtle, E.
Compton, Joseph	Livingstone, A. M.	Tinker, John Joseph
Connolly, M.	Lowth, T.	Townend, A. E.
Cove, W. G.	Lunn, William	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	MacDonald, Ht. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)	Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, Hugh	Mackinder, W.	Viant, S. P.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	MacLaren, Andrew	Wallhead, Richard C.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Day, Colonel Harry	March, S.	Warne, G. H.
Duncan, C.	Montague, Frederick	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Morris, R. H.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Fenby, T. D.	Murnin, H.	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Naylor, T. E.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Gosling, Harry	Oliver, George Harold	Weir, L. M.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Owen, Major G.	Westwood, J.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent)	Palin, John Henry	Whiteley, W.
Greenall, T.	Paling, W.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Potts, John S.	Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Richardson, H. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Riley, Ben	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Groves, T.	Ritson, J.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grundy, T. W.	Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. B., Elland)	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Rose, Frank H.	Windsor, Walter
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter	Wright, W.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Scrymgeour, E.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Scurr, John
Hardie, George D.	Sexton, James	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Harris, Percy A.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)	Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Shiels, Dr. Drummond	Charles Edwards.
Hastings, Sir Patrick
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Bethell, A.	Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Betterton, Henry B.	Burton, Colonel H. W.
Albery, Irving James	Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Butler, Sir Geoffrey
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Butt, Sir Alfred
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Blades, Sir George Rowland	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Blundell, F. N.	Caine, Gordon Hall
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Campbell, E. T.
Apsley, Lord	Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Cassels, J. D.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Brass, Captain W.	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Brassey, Sir Leonard	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)
Astor, Viscountess	Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Atholl, Duchess of	Briscoe, Richard George	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Christie, J. A.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Clarry, Reginald George
Banks, Reginald Mitchell	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Clayton, G. C.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Cobb, Sir Cyril
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Buckingham, Sir H.	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Cooper, A. Duff
Bennett, A. J.	Bullock, Captain M.	Cope, Major William
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan	Couper, J. B.
Berry, Sir George	Burman, J. B.	Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Remer, J. R.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Remnant, Sir James
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Rentoul, G. S.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Rice, Sir Frederick
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Hume, Sir G. H.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hurd, Percy A.	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)
Dalkeith, Earl of	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Rye, F. G.
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Jacob, A. E.	Salmon, Major I.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Jephcott, A. R.	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Dixey, A. C.	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Drewe, C.	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Sandon, Lord
Duckworth, John	Lamb, J. Q.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.	Savery, S. S.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Shaw, Capt W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Elveden, Viscount	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Shepperson, E. W.
England, Colonel A.	Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Loder, J. de V.	Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Looker, Herbert William	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Smithers, Waldron
Everard, W. Lindsay	Lougher, L.	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Fermoy, Lord	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Fielden, E. B.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Finburgh, S.	Macintyre, Ian	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	McLean, Major A.	Storry Deans, R.
Forrest, W.	Macmillan, Captain H.	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Fraser, Captain Ian	Macquisten, F. A.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Malone, Major P. B.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Ganzoni, Sir John	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Gates, Percy.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Tinne, J. A.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Gee, Captain R.	Meller, R. J.	Turton, Edmund Russborough
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Merriman, F. B.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Waddington, R.
Goff, Sir Park	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Grace, John	Mirchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Ward. Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Grant, J. A.	Moles, Thomas	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Greene, W P. Crawford	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Warrender, Sir Victor
Gretton, Colonel John	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Grotrian, H. Brent	Moreing, Captain A. H.	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Nelson, Sir Frank	Watts, Dr. T.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Neville, R. J.	Wells, S. R.
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Newton, sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Hammersley, S. S.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Wiggins, William Martin
Hanbury, C.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Nuttall, Ellis	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Harland, A.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Harrison, G. J. C.	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Hartington, Marquess of	Pennefather, Sir John	Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Penny, Frederick George	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Haslam, Henry C.	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Wise, Sir Fredric
Hawke, John Anthony	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Womersley, W. J.
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Wood. E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Philipson, Mabel	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Pielou, D. P.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Preston, William	Wragg, Herbert
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Radford, E. A.	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Raine, W.
Holland, Sir Arthur	Ramsden, E.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Holt, Captain H. P.	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Major Hennessy and Captain
Homan, C. W. J.	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)	Margesson.

Mr. SPEAKER

The next Amendment on the Paper is covered by the discussion we have just had.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I should like to have an opportunity of registering a vote on this Amendment, because it is to cut out words which wore put in in Committee against the wishes of the Government.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the right hon. Gentleman will be content with one short statement and a Division, I will select the Amendment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg to move, in page 19, line 33, to leave out from the word "borough" to the word "The" in line 38.

The words we propose to leave out are words which were added by the hon. Member for Liverpool against the wishes of the Government, and they were, I think, generally regarded as being unfortunate when they were put in. They are to say that one-fifth of the assessment committees have to be selected from people outside the council, independent persons representing, in fact, the interests. I do not think Liverpool it; a good city to take an inspiration from for the rest of England, and the idea that the Bill should be amended by putting into the assessment committee one-fifth, who should be on no account representative persons but who should be representing the interests, seems to me to be utterly reactionary. When the vote was taken, in spite of the pressure brought to bear by the hon. Member, the Solicitor-General, the Under-Secretary,

the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) and, in fact, the people who had most to do with the framing of the Bill both before it was introduced and while it was passing through Committee were against the Amendment. I remember at the time there was no one more surprised than the hon. Member himself that it was carried. But we need not bother about how or why it was carried. What we have to remember is, is it desirable to have upon your assessment committees co-opted people representing the various interests dealing with assessments. Do you want to have the licensed interest specially represented on your assessment committee? Do you want to have the interests of the various forms of property owners specially represented on that committee? If you are going to get a just valuation, is it not obviously undesirable that there should be special representation of any special interest? For that reason, I ask the House to reject the words, and restore the Bill to the shape in which it was when it was brought before the House on Second Reading by the Government.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'exclusive' in line 33, stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 295; Noes, 129.

Division No. 404.	AYES.	[10.32 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Briscoe, Richard George	Cooper, A. Duff
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Cope, Major William
Albery, Irving James	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Allen, J Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Brown, Brig.-Gen H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Buckingham, Sir H.	Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)
Apsley, Lord	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Crookshank, Cpt H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan	Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Burman, J. B.	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry
Astor, Viscountess	Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Curzon, Captain Viscount
Atholl, Duchess of	Burton, Colonel H. W.	Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Butt, Sir Alfred	Davies, Dr. Vernon
Barrett, Major Sir Richard	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Caine, Gordon Hall	Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Campbell, E. T.	Dixey, A. C.
Beckett Sir Gervase	Cassels, J. D.	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Drewe, C.
Bennett, A. J.	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Duckworth, John
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Edmondson, Major A. J.
Bethell, A.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Betterton, Henry B.	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Elliot, Captain Walter E.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Chilcott, Sir Warden	Elveden, Viscount
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Christie, J. A.	England, Colonel A.
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Clarry, Reginald George	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Blundell, F. N.	Clayton, G. C.	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Brass, Captain W.	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Everard, W. Lindsay
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Fermoy, Lord	Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.	Rye, F. G.
Fielden, E. B.	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Salmon, Major I.
Finburgh, S.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Forrest, W.	Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Loder, J. de V.	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Looker, Herbert William	Sandon, Lord
Fraser, Captain Ian	Lord, Walter Greaves-	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.	Lougher, L.	Savery, S. S.
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Galbraith, J. F. W.	MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Ganzoni, Sir John.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Gates, Percy	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Shepperson, E. W.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	Macintyre, Ian	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Gee, Captain R.	McLean, Major A.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Macmillan, Captain H.	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Smithers, Waldron
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Macquisten, F. A.	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Goff, Sir Park	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Grace, John	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Grant, J. A.	Malone, Major P. B.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Gretton, Colonel John	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Grotrian, H. Brent	Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.	Storry Deans, R.
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Meller, R. J.	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Merriman, F. B.	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Meyer, Sir Frank	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Hammersley, S. S.	Moles, Thomas	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Hanbury, C.	Monse'll Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Harland, A.	Moreing, Captain A. H.	Tinne, J. A.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Murchison, C. K.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Harrison, G. J. C.	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Turton, Edmund Russborough
Hartington, Marquess of	Nelson, Sir Frank	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Neville, R. J.	Waddington, R.
Haslam, Henry C.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Hawke, John Anthony	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Warrender, Sir Victor
Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Nuttall, Ellis	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Hilton, Cecil	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Watts, Dr. T.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Pennefather, Sir John	Wells, S. R.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Penny, Frederick George	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Holland, Sir Arthur	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Holt, Captain H. P.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Wiggins, William Martin
Homan, C. W. J.	Peto, Basil (Devon, Barnstaple)	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Philipson, Mabel	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Pielou, D. P.	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)	Pownall, Lieut. -Colonel Assheton	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Preston, William	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)	Radford, E. A.	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hume, Sir G. H.	Raine, W.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Hurd, Percy A.	Ramsden, E.	Womersley, W. J.
Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.	Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Remer, J. R.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Jacob, A. E.	Remnant, Sir James	Wragg, Herbert
Jephcott, A. R.	Rentoul, G. S.	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Rice, Sir Frederick
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)	Captain Margesson and Major
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Hennessy.
Lamb, J. Q.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon W. (Fife, West)	Bromfield, William	Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Day, Colonel Harry
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Buchanan, G.	Duncan, C.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Cape, Thomas	Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Charleton, H. C.	Fenby, T. D.
Baker, Walter	Clowes, S.	Gillett, George M.
Barnes, A.	Cluse, W. S.	Gosling, Harry
Barr, J.	Compton, Joseph	Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Batey, Joseph	Connolly, M.	Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Cove, W. G.	Greenall, T.
Briant, Frank	Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Broad, F. A.	Dalton, Hugh	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Groves, T.	March, S.	Stamford, T. W.
Grundy, T. W.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Stephen, Campbell
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Montague, Frederick	Taylor, R. A.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Morris, R. H.	Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Hardie, George D.	Murnin, H.	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)
Harris, Percy A.	Naylor, T. E.	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Oliver, George Harold	Thurtle, E.
Hastings, Sir Patrick	Owen, Major G.	Townend, A. E.
Hayday, Arthur	Palin, John Henry	Varley, Frank B.
Hayes, John Henry	Paling, W.	Viant, S. P.
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Potts, John S.	Warne, G. H.
Hirst, G. H.	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Riley, Ben	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Ritson, J.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)	Weir, L. M.
John, William (Rhondda, West)	Rose, Frank H.	Westwood, J.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter	Whiteley, W.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Scrymgeour, E.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Kelly, W. T.	Scurr, John	Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Kennedy, T.	Sexton, James	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Lansbury George	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Lawson, John James	Shiels, Dr. Drummond	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Lee, F.	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Lindley, F. W.	Sitch, Charles H.	Windsor, Walter
Livingstone, A. M.	Smillie, Robert	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Lowth, T.	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Lunn, William	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Aberavon)	Snell, Harry	Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Charles
Mackinder, W.	Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)	Edwards.
MacLaren, Andrew

Major RUGGLES-BRISE

I beg to move, in page 19, to leave out from the word "one-fifth," in line 33, to the word "shall," in line 36.

This Amendment is consequential to others that have been carried.

The Marquess of HARTINGTON

I beg to second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 19, lines 42 and 43, leave out the words "subject to the provisions of this section."

In page 20, line 7, leave out Subsection (5). — [Major Ruggles-Brise.]

CLAUSE 18.—(County valuation Committees.)

Amendment made: In page 21, leave out from the word "Act," in line 5, to the end of line 6.—[Mr. Chamberlain.)

Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON

I beg to move, in page 21, line 16, at the end, to insert the words, (4) Notwithstanding anything in this Section, Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section eighty-two of the Local Government Act, 18SS (which relates to the proceedings of committees appointed by county councils), shall apply in relation to the county valuation committee, and Sub-section (3) of Section eighty of the said Act shall apply in relation to expenditure incurred or to be incurred in connection with the exercise by the committee of its functions as it applies to any other expenditure of a county council. The question raised is the extent to which county councils are to be masters in their own houses and to have effective control over the county valuation committees. It was pointed out in Standing Committee that, although the county valuation committee is called a committee of the county council, the county council valuation committee will be practically a separate entity and will no longer be responsible to the county council. It will have power to demand and to spend money out of the county fund, and will be able to participate in and to organise expensive conferences and other forms of spending the ratepayers' money. The county councils jealously guard their powers and rights. It is in order that it should be quite clear that these committees are to be responsible to the county councils that this Amendment has been moved. If it be accepted, it will place the county valuation committees on precisely the same footing as any other committees set up by the county councils.

Captain BOURNE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I accept the Amendment.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Does this Amendment mean that decisions of the county valuation committee have to be approved of by the county council before they become operative? If so, it seems to be an extraordinarily cumbersome procedure. I know the county valuation committee has not many powers, but such powers as it has will be hung up if every resolution which it passes has to go to the county council.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Section 80 of the Local Government Act of 1888 defines the relations between the county council and the committee, and it makes this committee really a committee of the county council, subject to the same control as that which the county council has over its other committees.

Mr. ATTLEE

When this matter was discussed in Committee I think a point was raised by several Members as to the provisions with regard to the finance committee, and it was suggested that this committee when it wanted to appear under this Clause on behalf of any objection or appeal, required a resolution of the finance committee. Is that so, or can the finance committee give a general authorisation.

Marquess of HARTINGTON

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reply to the question which was put to him just now by the hon. Member for Torquay (Commander Williams). Unless and until he answers that question the discussion of this Clause is meaningless and we do not know where we are.

Captain BENN

The Debate is of an unreal character owing to the behaviour of the right hon. Gentleman. Apparently he has made some private arrangement to accept this Amendment and he scarcely even rises in his place to say that he accepts it. He has made no response to the appeals of hon. Members, including some of his own supporters, and he is treating the House in a manner which can fairly be described as disrespectful.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 19.—(Making of Valuation Lists.)

Amendment made:

In page 22, lines 17 and 18, leave out the words "and with respect to railways and special properties."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

CLAUSE 20.—(Effect of valuation list. 10 Edw. 7. and 1 Geo. 5. c. 24.)

The following Amendment stood upon the Paper in the name of Colonel WEDGWOOD:

In page 22, line 43, at the end, to insert the words: (3) As from such time as may hereafter be determined by Parliament, and subject to such conditions as may be provided by Parliament, the gross value of any hereditament as appearing in the valuation list shall be taken to be conclusive evidence of the annual value of that hereditament for the purpose of compensation in the ease of compulsory acquisition.

Mr. SPEAKER

With regard to the first Amendment to this Clause in the name of the right hon. and gallant. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), it is outside the scope of the Bill.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

May I ask whether the use of the valuation lists for this purpose is outside the scope of the Bill when we have examples throughout the Bill of the uses to which these lists are put for purposes of rating? Are we debarred from considering the use of the lists when compensation has to be paid for property acquired by the community or the local authority?

Mr. SPEAKER

On this Bill, I think we are. The next Amendment in the name of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is in Order.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg to move, in page 22, line 43, at the end, to insert the words: (3) As from such time as may hereafter be determined by Parliament, and subject to such conditions as may be provided by Parliament, the gross value of any hereditament as appearing in the valution list shall be taken to be conclusive evidence of the annual value of that hereditament for the purpose of Income Tax. I believe that this would have the hearty support of all hon. Members opposite. The new valuation list for local taxation as arranged by their assessment committees should be taken as the basis for Income Tax under Schedule A. When the Bill was originally introduced that was the idea. Then, after a certain period, the valuation for local purposes as provided by this Bill was to be the basis of valuation for Schedule A of the Income Tax. We were to get one uniform value of property throughout the country, both for central and local purposes. As the various improvements in the system of arriving at a true value were carried by hon. Members behind the Government or adopted by the Government under duress, so gradually the idea of one valuation dropped out, and now the last thing the Government would accept would be this Amendment which I now ask to have re-inserted in the Bill to make it as it was when the Bill passed the Second Reading—that we should have one valuation based upon the valuation of squires and farmers who are going to form these assessment committees. We were going to get at last a single straightforward valuation. We had not got through the Second Reading before they knew they had to give way. By the time the Bill went through Committee the idea that this Clause should remain in the Bill became perfectly ridiculous. Until you get one uniform valuation for taxation and rating you will never get just and honest values. It is because we want a just and honest value that we press for a valuation from Somerset House, from headquarters—a real independent valuation. When we get it, we shall have, not merely the annual value of the property but the capital selling value of the land.

Captain BENN

This Sub-section was in the original Bill and was left out upstairs. Now the Minister of Health proposes to leave it out, although the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), in loyalty to the original intentions of the Government, wishes to re-insert it. Surely the House is entitled to an explanation from the Government. I think the Report stage of any Bill would become a farce if we were not entitled to ask the Ministry why they departed from their original plans.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The hon. and gallant Gentleman reminds me of a character in a famous novel, who says to another one: "Don't you always be swal-

lering my words and bringing them up again afterwards as if they were none the worse for the process." It is quite true that these words were in the original Bill, but when they were the words of the Government they had a meaning; now that they are the words of the right hon. Gentleman, they have no meaning whatever. They merely serve for an exhibition of that subtle irony in which he so much delights.

Mr. ATTLEE

I think the right hon. hon. Gentleman might make clear why these words are no good now. The intention of the Bill as introduced by the Minister was to get a fair valuation by having an Inland Revenue expert on the committees to keep them more or less straight. Now, under pressure by the Noble Lord the Member for Western Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington), by the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Major Ruggles-Brise), and by the right hon. Member for East Grin stead (Sir H. Cautley), and others, the whole gang of taskmasters, all those safeguards disappear, and now, so far from there being an assessment on which the national taxation could be safely based, the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that if he were to accept this Amendment now he would come off very badly from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury, who would not for a moment think of accepting this valuation by the process which has been forced on him by his hon. Friends, and which everyone knows is very little, if at all, an improvement on the present system. That is the real answer why the Amendment is not accepted.

Mr. SPEAKER

It would seem that the Amendment was ironical. Ought I to put it to the House?

An HON. MEMBER

We will vote ironically.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 127; Noes, 303.

Division No. 405.]	AYES.	[10.59 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Cluse, W. S.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Briant, Frank	Compton, Joseph
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Broad, F. A.	Connolly, M.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Bromfield, William	Cove, W. G.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)	Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Baker, Walter	Buchanan, G.	Dalton, Hugh
Barnes, A.	Cape, Thomas	Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Barr, J.	Charleton, H. C.	Day, Colonel Harry
Batey, Joseph	Clowes, S.	Duncan, C.
Dunnico, H.	Lawson, John James	Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Lee, F.	Snell, Harry
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Lindley, F. W.	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Fenby, T. D.	Livingstone, A. M.	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Gillett, George M.	Lowth, T.	Stamford, T. W.
Gosling, Harry	Lunn, William	Stephen, Campbell
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Taylor, R. A.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Mackinder, W.	Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Greenall, T.	MacLaren, Andrew	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	March, S.	Thurtle, E.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Tinker, John Joseph
Groves, T.	Morris, R. H.	Townend, A. E.
Grundy, T. W.	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Varley, Frank B.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Murnin, H.	Viant, S. P.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Naylor, T. E.	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Oliver, George Harold	Warne, G. H.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Owen, Major G.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Harris, Percy A.	Palin, John Henry	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Paling, W.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Hastings, Sir Patrick	Potts, John S.	Weir, L. M.
Hayday, Arthur	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Westwood, J.
Hayes, John Henry	Riley, Ben	Whiteley, W.
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Ritson, J.	Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Hirst, G. H.	Rose, Frank H.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Scrymgeour, E.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Scurr, John	Windsor, Walter
John, William (Rhondda, West)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Kelly, W. T.	Sitch, Charles H.	Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. T.
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Smillie, Robert	Kennedy.
Lansbury, George	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Caine, Gordon Hall	Fermoy, Lord
Albery, Irving James	Campbell, E. T.	Fielden, E. B.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Cassels, J. D.	Finburgh, S.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Forrest, W.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Foster, Sir Harry S.
Apsley, Lord	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Chilcott, Sir Warden	Fraser, Captain Ian
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Christie, J. A.	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis H.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.	Clarry, Reginald George	Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony
Astor, Viscountess	Clayton, G. C.	Galbraith, J. F. W.
Atholl, Duchess of	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Ganzoni, Sir John
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Gates, Percy
Ballour, George (Hampstead)	Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Gee, Captain R.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Cooper, A. Duff	Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Cope, Major William	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.	Goff, Sir Park
Bennett, A. J.	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Grace, John
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-	Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Grant, J. A.
Bethell, A.	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Greene, W. P. Crawford
Betterton, Henry B.	Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)	Gretton, Colonel John
Birchall, Major J. Dearman	Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Grotrian, H. Brent
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Gunston, Captain D. W.
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Blundell, F. N.	Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Brass, Captain W.	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Hammersley, S. S.
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Hanbury, C.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Briscoe, Richard George	Dixey, A. C.	Harland, A.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.	Drewe, C.	Harrison, G. J. C.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Duckworth, John	Hartington, Marquess of
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Brown, Brig.- Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Haslam, Henry C.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Hawke, John Anthony
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Elveden, Viscount	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan	England, Colonel A.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Burman, J. B.	Erskine Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Everard, W. Lindsay	Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Butt, Sir Alfred	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Hilton, Cecil

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Moreing, Captain A. H.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Holland, Sir Arthur	Murchison, C. K.	Smithers, Waldron
Holt, Captain H. P.	Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Homan, C. W. J.	Nelson, Sir Frank	Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Neville, R.J.	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Storry Deans, R.
Hume, Sir G. H.	Nuttall, Ellis	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hurd, Percy A.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.	Pennefather, Sir John	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Penny, Frederick George	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Jacob, A. E.	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Jephcott, A. R.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Tinne, J. A.
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
King. Captain Henry Douglas	Phillpson, Mabel	Turton, Edmund Russborough
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Pielou, D. P.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Lamb, J. Q.	Power, Sir John Cecil	Waddington, R.
Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Preston, William	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)	Radford, E. A.	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Loder, J. de V.	Raine, W.	Warrender, Sir Victor
Looker, Herbert William	Ramsden, E.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Lord, Walter Greaves-	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Lougher, L.	Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman	Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Wells, S. R.
Lumley, L. R.	Remer, J. R.	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Mac Andrew, Charles Glen	Remnant, Sir James	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Rentoul, G. S.	Wiggins, William Martin
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Macintyre, Ian	Rice, Sir Frederick	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
McLean, Major A.	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Macmillan, Captain H.	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Macquisten, F. A.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
MacRobert, Alexander M.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Rye, F. G.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Malone, Major P. B.	Salmon, Major I.	Wolmer, Viscount
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Womersley, W. J.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Sandeman, A. Stewart	Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Meller, R. J.	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Merriman, F. B.	Sandon, Lord	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Meyer, Sir Frank	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave, D.	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Savery, S. S.	Wragg, Herbert
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Moles, Thomas	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Moore, Sir Newton J.	Shepperson, E. W.	Captain Margesson and Major
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. U. T. C.	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)	Hennessy.
Morden, Col. W. Grant

Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. SPEAKER

The right hon. Gentle-man the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has asked me to allow him to move an Amendment on Clause 21.

CLAUSE 21.—(Contents of valuation list.)

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I beg to moves, in page 23, line 4, to leave out the words "the value" and to insert instead thereof the words the gross value, the net annual value, and the rateable value thereof, together with such further particulars. I apologise to the House for not having put this Amendment on the Paper, but I received it only this morning from an old and respected friend. The Clause lays it down that there shall be inserted in the valuation list such particulars with respect to every hereditament in the rating area and the value thereof as may be prescribed. What I am afraid of is that people will have only the net annual value and the rateable value and not the gross value. If people are to be able to make the fullest comparison between their property and others when they go to the rate book to see if they are fairly assessed the rate book ought to give them full information. I am so convinced that the importance of getting our valuation list complete is so great, that if the Government will accept this Amendment, which I am afraid they will not, I should really once more approve of their Bill, but the arguments against this Amendment will, I suppose, be the old arguments which have always been brought up one after another on this Bill, that the people whose property is set down in the valuation list do not want publicity. We do want publicity for these matters. I think every honest citizen, looking at this purely from the point of view of getting a correct register, must want these values set down, so that they can be seen, and I do not think we ought to sacrifice that simply because there is an instinct in human nature to keep the valuation of their own property secret, so that it cannot be compared with that of other persons. Therefore, I do beg the Government either to insert this Amendment, or to tell us that the value to be inserted in the valuation law will contain gross, net and rateable value, and then we shall have, not a fair valuation, but, at any rate, a comparative valuation upon which to work.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The right hon. Gentleman evidently thinks we are more intelligent on this side of the House than he and his friends are, if he expects we shall fully understand his manuscript Amendment, of which he has not sent me a copy. The argument why we cannot accept his Amendment is not at all the old argument that he has brought up, but another quite different one. We cannot insist in each case that the gross value of the hereditament shall be inserted, because in a great many cases there is no gross valuation. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the Second Schedule, he will see there the cases of gross value. I think I can satisfy his mind by saying that certainly among the particulars we shall prescribe to be inserted in the valuation list will be the gross value where there is gross value, the rateable value, and, where the net annual value differs from the rateable value, the net annual value.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 22.—(Ascertainment of rateable value.)

Amendment made: In page 23, line 8, at the beginning, insert the words: For the purposes of the first new valuation list to be prepared under this Act and of any subsequent valuation list."—[Sir K. Wood.]

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 23, line 17, after the word "table," to insert the words and also, in the case of a hereditament subject to any rate, charge, or assessment made by any commissioners of sewers or other like authority in respect of any drainage, wall, embankment, or other work for the benefit of the hereditament (not being a usual tenant's rate), such further amount as represents the average annual amount of that rate, charge or assessment. This Amendment refers to certain deductions in cases of hereditaments subject to various charges. We put in numbers 7 and 12 as part of the Second Schedule, with special deductions in the case of agricultural land. Since then it appears that there are also buildings subject to these charges, and I propose to take these out of the Schedule and put them into the Bill itself.

Amendment agreed to.

Major RUGGLES-BRISE

I beg to move, in page 23, lines 22 and 23, to leave out the words "taking one year with another."

The words in the Bill imply taking a collection of years, past as well as pro-sent and future. At the present time it is obvious that in order to arrive at the true value of any hereditament, the more we can leave out the past, which is connected with post-War valuer, the better. If we can deal with the present and the future we are more likely to get a true cross rateable value.

In all the Acts dealing with gross rateable value the words "from year to year" have been the words used. There is quite a body of case law which clearly sets out what those words mean. There is only one Act of Parliament in which the words "one year with another" are used, and that is in the Metropolitan Valuation Act, 1869, and when we are trying to get a Bill dealing with rating reforms and attempting to achieve uniformity, then the less question there is about matters of definition the better. and we should use words which are well known to have a legal meaning and have been settled in the Courts rather than an expression not so well known as the one in the Bill.

Mr. RHYS

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

It is quite true, as my hon. and gallant Friend says, that there are two definitions-describing the same matter and having the same meaning. The words "taking one year with another" are in the Act of 1869, and the words "from year to year" are in the Act of 1836. As we are leaving London out of the Bill, and as we previously had the London definition in, I think we can now accept my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion, which will make the phraseology, exactly the same all through. Therefore, I am glad to accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 23, line 23, after the word "pay," insert the words "from year to year."—[Major Ruggles-Brise.]

Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN

I beg to move, in page 24, to leave out from the word "of" in line 17, to the end of line 20, and to insert instead thereof the words the net annual value or rateable value as calculated in accordance with the provisions of this part of this Act. The purpose of this Amendment is merely one of machinery, and it does not affect any question of principle. The intention is simply that the net annual value, or the rateable value, shall be calculated to the nearest pound, and not merely that the amount to be deducted shall be so calculated.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I bog to second the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I think we are indebted to my hon. and gallant Friend for moving this Amendment, which is certainly a distinct improvement on the original draft of the Bill. The object, of course, is to get the net rateable value rounded off to an even number of pounds. As the Bill was drafted, the calculation was made by deduction from the gross value. This Amendment will carry out what was intended, but was not properly expressed in the original draft.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 24, line 21, leave out the word "deduction.' and insert instead thereof the words "net annual value or rateable value."—[Colonel Vaughan-Morgan.]

CLAUSE 23.—(Assessment of certain buildings occupied in parts.)

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I beg to move, in page 24, line 44, at the end, to insert a new Sub-section: (2) This Section shall have effect in any area for the purpose of the making of the first new valuation list under this Act for that area and for the purpose of the revision of that list and the making or revision of any subsequent list, but shall not have effect for the purpose of the making or revision of any other valuation list. This Amendment is designed to indicate exactly the date at which the Section comes into operation, and makes it quite clear that it refers to the new valuation list, and not to the current valuation list.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. ERSKINE

I beg to move, in page 24, line 44, at the end, to insert the words Always provided that the rateable value of such dwelling-house at the time of the last quinquennial valuation be not less than one hundred pounds per annum.

Mrs. PHILIPSON

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir K. WOOD

I regret that I cannot advise the House to accept the Amendment. If I did so, it would practically destroy the Clause, and we have had a considerable number of representations on the necessity for giving authorities this power.

Mr. ERSKINE

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

HON. MEMBERS: No!

Amendment negatived.

Ordered, "That the further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now-adjourned."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered Tomorrow.