§ I come to the large question of security. I observed in this morning's paper a few brief but singularly pregnant observations by a man as competent to offer advice to his countrymen in foreign affairs as anyone in this country—Lord Grey.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODHe knew something about the War!
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThe brief report of what he said to a gathering, I think, within the precincts of this House, last night, opens with the words:
Security was the master-key to the difficult problems of Western Europe.I do not suppose it would be possible for anyone—[Interruption]—to occupy the position that I have done for these few months, and not feel that the dominant enemy in Europe to-day is the sense of insecurity which reigns everywhere, and that no real progress will be made until we can somehow relieve these oppressive fears that haunt the waking and sleeping thoughts of the statesmen of many countries, and give that measure of security and of stability to Europe as the is now constituted, upon which all progress in human affairs, all recovery of national life and all commercial and economic prosperity must depend. At every turn this question meets you;. at every turn in conversations with the representatives, not of this State or that, but of every State, there arises this question of security, or, as I am inclined 10 say, insecurity, which exists at the present moment, and there is only too much truth in Lord Grey's further observation that no progress can be made until the question of security is dealt with.My right hon. Friend alluded to reports winch have appeared in the paper of certain proposals which have been made to the Allied Governments by Germany. He asked whether there was any foundation for the statements; if so, how long they had been in our possession; and whether I could give him any indication as to the manner in which His Majesty's Govern- 708 ment regarded them. M. Herriot has, I think, already informed the Foreign Affairs Committee of the French Senate that such proposals were issued. My first knowledge of them was a communication, which reached me in the most confidential and secret form a few weeks back. I at once said that I could not receive communications of the kind under an implied pledge that I was not to speak of them to our Allies. I decline to be a party to the handing to me, or the transmission to me, of suggestions through our Ambassador in Berlin.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODWhat about the Red letter now?
§ The CHAIRMANI must ask the hon. Member to realise that the right hon. Gentleman is making a statement of the utmost importance and gravity, and if he cannot refrain from interrupting, I shall have to ask him to leave the House.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAIN rose to continue his speech—
§ Mr. KIRKWOOD who was indistinctly heard, also rose, and was understood to say that his interjections might not have been pertinent, but they were perfectly parliamentary.
§ The CHAIRMANI call upon the hon. Member to leave the House. If the hon. Member does not leave the House, I shall have to name him for disregarding the authority of the Chair. Will the hon. Member leave the House?
§ Mr. KIRKWOODNo, Sir.
§ The CHAIRMANThen I must name the hon. Member for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to report the circumstances to the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
§ The CHAIRMANI must inform you, Mr. Speaker, that, under Standing Order No. 20, I have had to name the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs for persistently disregarding the authority of the Chair, and that when called upon to withdraw from the House for the remainder of the sitting, the hon. Member refused.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI have to name the hon. Member, Mr. David Kirkwood, for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ Mr. A. CHAMBERLAINI beg to move, "That Mr. Kirkwood, the Member for Dumbarton Burghs, be suspended from the service of the House."
§ Mr. SPEAKERUnder the Orders of the House, I have to put the Question forthwith.
Mr. MacDONALDCould not I raise a point of Order. May I say to you, Sir, and also to the House, that I am only trying to get over what will obviously be a matter which will leave behind it a very considerable feeling if this be pursued. The Rule is that naming can only take place where there is an abuse of the Rules of the House, by persistently and wilfully obstructing the business of the House. I do not require, I hope, to assure you, and I hope I do not require to assure any section of the House, that I shall never support that if a Member persistently and wilfully obstruct the business of the House. But is there no means under the Rules by which you can be informed of what actually did take place?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think the Standing Orders of the House are quite clear. I am bound to take the report of the Chairman of the Committee. That report
| Division No. 31.] | AYES. | [5.17 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lleut.-Colonel | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Dixey, A. C. |
| Agfl-Gardner. Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Doyle, Sir N. Grattan |
| Albery, Irving James | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Drewe, C. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Blrm., W.) | Duckworth, John |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Chapman, Sir S. | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Apsley, Lord | Charterls, Brigadier-General J. | Elliot, Captain Walter E. |
| Ashmead-Bartiett, E. | Christie, J. A. | Ellis, R. G. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | E'veden, Viscount |
| Balnlel, Lord | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | England, Colonel A. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Clayton, G. C. | Ersklne, James Malcolm Montelth |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A, D. | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H. | Cockerlll, Brigadier-General G. K. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon W. | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Fairfax, Captain J. G. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Fanshawe, Commander G. D. |
| Berry, sir George | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Fermoy, Lord |
| Bethell, A. | Cooper, A. Duff | Flelden, E. B. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cope, Major William | Flnburgh, S. |
| Birehall, Major J. Dearman | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Forestier-Walker, L. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. | Forrest, W. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington,N.) | Foster, Sir Harry S. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) | Fraser, Captain Ian |
| Bowater, Sir T. Vanslttart | Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Fremantle, Lleut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Galbralth, J. F. W. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Crook, C. W. | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Cllve | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Glyn, Major R. G. C. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Curzon, Captain Viscount | Goff, Sir Park |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Dalkeith. Earl of | Grant, J. A. |
| Broun-Llndsay, Major H. | Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(WthVw,E) |
| Brown, MaJ. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Davles, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) | Gretton. Colonel John |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol.N.) |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Davison. Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. |
| Burgoyne, Llaut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hammersley, S. S. |
§ having been made to me, and the Motion being duly made, I am bound to put the Question, without amendment or debate.
Mr. MacDONALDMay I again put a question to you? If I tried, while the Chairman was still in the Chair, to put the case, and to describe really what had happened in relation to the Rules of the House, and I had no opportunity, is it still beyond your power to give some such opportunity?
§ Mr. SPEAKERYes, it is for the moment. I have no doubt representations can be made on the matter, but the House is bound to act according to the Standing Orders.
§ Mr. LEES SMITH rose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERI am bound under the Standing Orders forthwith to put the Question to the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKERNo.
§ Question put, "That Mr. Kirkwood, the Member for Dumbarton Burghs, be suspended from the service of the House."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 245; Noes, 119.
711| Hanbury, C. | Marriott, Sir J. A. R. | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Harland, A. | Mason, Lleut.-Col. Glyn K. | Slmms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Meller, R. J. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Hartlngton, Marquess of | Meyer, Sir Frank | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Headlam, Lleut.-Colonel C. M. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.C.) |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Smlthers, Waldron |
| Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Somervllle, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com, Rt. Hon. B. M. | Spender Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hennlker-Hughan, Vlce-Adm. Sir A. | Moore-Brabazon, Lileut.-Col. J. T. C. | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Murchlson, C. K. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Holland, Sir Arthur | Nail, Lleut.-Colonel Sir Joseph | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Homan, C. W. J. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D, L. (Exeter) | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Nleld, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Nuttail, Ellis | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Oakley, T. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Horllck, Lleut.-Colonel J. N. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Thomson, F. C. (Anrrdeen, South) |
| Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon,S.) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Tlnne, J. A. |
| Huntlngfleld, Lord | Perkins, Colonet E. K. | Turton, Edmund Russborough |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Perring. William George | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's) | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Philipson, Mabel | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| James, Lleut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthberl | Pielou, D. P. | Water-house, Captain Charles |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). | Pllditch. Sir Philip | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Kldd, J. (Linlithgow) | Power, Sir John Cecil | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Klndersley, Major Guy M. | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton | Wells, S. R. |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Price, Major C. W. M. | Wheler, Major Granville C. H. |
| Lamb, J. Q. | Raine, W. | White, Lleut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Lane-Fox, Lieut. Col. George R. | Ramsden, E. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Lister, Cunllffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Rawson, Alfred Cooper | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Lloyd, Rt.Hn.Sir G.(ESussex,E'stb'ne) | Rentoul, G. S. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Loder, j. de v. | Rice, Sir Frederick | Windsor-Cllve, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Looker, Herbert William | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Wlnterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Lord, Walter Greaves- | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Lougher, L. | Ropner, Major L. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Luce, Major-Gen.Sir Richard Harman | Ruggles-Brlse, Major E. A. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Lumley, L. R. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| MacAndrew, Charles Glen | Rye, F. G. | Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Salmon, Major I. | Wood, Sir Klngsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) |
| Maclntyre, Ian | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| McLean, Major A. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Worthlngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Sanderson, Sir Frank | Wragg, Herbert |
| McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Sandon, Lord | |
| Maklns, Brigadier-General E. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave O. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Savery, S. S. | Colonel Glbbs and Captain Douglas |
| Margesson, Captain D. | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W) | Hacking. |
| Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Thurtle, E. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Snell. Harry | Tinker, John Joseph | Whiteley, w. |
| Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Stanford, T. W. | Varley, Frank B. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Stephen, Campbell | Wallhead, Richard C. | Wright. W. |
| Sutton, J. E. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen | |
| Taylor, R. A. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H (Derby) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney | Mr. T. Kennedy and Mr. Warne |
| Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro.W.) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member must please leave the House.
§ The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs withdrew accordingly from the House, followed by other hon. and right hen. Members of the Labour party.
§ Consideration of Supply in Committee resumed.
§ [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
§ Question again proposed, "That Item Class II, Vote 5, be reduced by £100."
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINI was saying, at the moment when I was interrupted, that, on hearing through our Ambassador in Berlin of these proposals, I said at once that I could not be placed under conditions of secrecy as regards our friends and Allies. I may add, that the very fact that it was sought to impose this condition of secrecy made me a little suspicious of the spirit in which the proposals were made, but the German Ambassador assured me, immediately I saw him, that it was, and always had been, the intention of his Government to make a similar communication to Paris, to Brussels and to Borne. That has now been done. Even at the first sight, I welcomed this new movement on the part of the German Government. Now that they have repeated, it may be with some slight differences, but, at any rate, in substance, their proposal to the other Allies, I attach great importance to it. It is obviously undesirable that I should enter into any details in public at this stage. The exchange of views between the Allied Governments has so far been of the slightest, and it is necessary that a much fuller exchange of views and a much closer examination of the purport and the possibility of the German proposals should take place before I can usefully or safely add anything more on the subject.
§ Mr. FISHERCan the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether the reports in the newspapers with respect to the German proposals are roughly correct?
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINI would sooner not begin to give an appreciation of proposals which require the most serious consideration, and which may have great possibilities in them for the peace and security of the world, and may be a starting point for a real recovery in the European situation. It is too soon to say whether they are or they are not, but it is not too soon for me to say that His Majesty's Government attach the highest importance to them, and mean to give them their most serious consideration in the hope that in this voluntary movement of the German Government there may be found a passage which will lead us away from the unhappy past to a better and more friendly future. I am sure that I shall speak the mind of every Member of this House when I say, that if such a consummation can be reached by and with our help, and if our help is required to bring it into being, the help as well as the good will of this country will not be lacking.