§ 21. Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary for Scotland what are the latest figures available showing the comparative costs of building houses of 853 feet square in brick, Weir type and Atholl type, respectively?
§ The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour)I regret that I am not at present in a position to give the information desired. The numbers of houses actually erected of the Weir type or Atholl type are not so far sufficient to give an average cost on a comparable basis to that of brick construction.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONHas the right hon. Gentleman had his attention drawn to the detailed analysis of these costs appearing in the "Architects' Journal" and the "Building and Monumental Trade Workers' Journal"?
§ Sir J. GILMOURHo, Sir; but I will inform myself.
§ 22. Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary for Scotland how many houses are being built under State-aided schemes in Scotland; and how many of these houses are steel houses of the Weir type?
§ Sir J. GILMOURThe latest date for which figures in regard to building progress in Scotland are available is 31st May, 1925. At that date 11,186 houses were in coures of construction under the various State-assisted schemes. Of these 11,186 houses, 7 were steel houses of the Weir type. A further number of steel houses have been completed, and others are on order.
§ 23. Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that he has gently had an interview at his request with representatives of the housing committees of the leading municipal authorities in Scotland, during which he sought to exercise pressure upon them against their desires and judgment 1051 to erect Weir steel houses in their areas, he can give an assurance that he will not refuse to authorise housing schemes which do not contain a percentage of steel houses?
§ Commander FANSHAWEOn a point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member of this House to bring a charge against, or impute any improper action to another hon. Member at Question time, as is done in this particular question, in lines 3 and 4?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. and gallant Member's point escapes me. I cannot see anything improper in the question.
§ Mr. WESTWOODThe hon. and gallant Member has very long vision. That is why he can see what is not there.
§ Sir J. GILMOURI have been, and still am, disquieted by the very slow progress of actual building in the State-assisted housing schemes in Scotland, and the constant tendency towards higher costs. The interview referred to was held with the object of investigating the reasons for this slow progress, and also any difficulties which were standing in the way of allowing a larger number of men to find employment in meeting the urgent demand for houses. The situation will be further reviewed in a conference with all the larger local authorities, which I am holding on Monday next (20th instant), but I must decline to pledge myself in advance to refrain from considering any possible steps towards the acceleration of the building programme concerning which I receive such constant representations from the people of Scotland.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONCan the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that, before he imposes any policy, such as is suggested in this question, of compelling local authorities in Scotland to put 20 per cent. of Weir steel houses into the housing schemes, he will give the House an opportunity of discussing that policy?
§ Brigadier-General CHARTERISIs it not the case that in Scotland housing has to a certain extent been retarded by the fact that under existing legislation members of county councils are prohibited from taking advantage of the subsidy when they desire to build houses on their own estates or otherwise?
§ Mr. SCRYMGEOURIs it not the case that the Department is holding up some of the schemes put forward by the Dundee Corporation on the score of economy?
§ Sir J. GILMOURIn reference to the last question, I am not aware of that being the fact, and I do not think it is the case. With regard to what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dumfries (Brigadier-General Charteris) says, that is a matter that I am afraid is not relevant to this question. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston), I am entering into a conference with all the larger local authorities, and I cannot at this period say that my hands will be tied in any respect whatever with regard to the erection of Weir houses.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERDoes the right hon. Gentleman think he has any authority at all from this House to compel local authorities to erect steel houses?
§ Sir J. GILMOURThat may be a matter of opinion, but I am sure I have power if I think it is going to produce a greater acceleration of building in Scotland.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONArising out of the original answer, in view of the fact that these particular houses cost more, that the wages paid are less, and that it will inevitably lead, as he knows, to a building trade strike and, consequently, to a stoppage of housing altogether, and considering the great importance of the question, will he not give this House an opportunity of discussing an important departure in policy of this kind?
§ Sir J. GILMOURThere is no doubt that every opportunity of criticising my action will be taken on the Vote for the Scottish Office. I am entering into a conference with the larger local authorities, and I am only anxious to carry them with the Government in any steps that they may think desirable.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONI beg to give notice that, on the Motion for the Adjournment to-night, I will call attention to this matter.
§ Mr. BUCHANANrose
§ Mr. SPEAKERNotice has been given that the matter will be raised on the Motion for the Adjournment.
§ Mr. BUCHANANOn a point of Order. May I not say, in regard to the last question—
§ Mr. SPEAKERWhat is the point of Order?
§ Mr. BUCHANANMy point of Order is this—and it is your ruling that I want— that every night the Government have suspended the Eleven o'Clock Rule, and, therefore, deprived private Members of the opportunity of raising a question on the Adjournment. I want to put this point to you, seeing that the Government have departed from a point of principle, and that we cannot raise the question of the Government's action for some time to come, whether you cannot, as exercising your right as the Speaker of this House, refuse permission to the Government to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule, or give us an opportunity of moving the Adjournment of the House at a quarter-past eight?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Motion suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule is the action of the House, not the action of the Chair.
§ Mr. BUCHANANOn that point—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member cannot take up Question Time in this way.
§ 25. Mr. SCRYMGEOURasked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the unsatisfactory progress made with house building in Scotland is due to exclusive preference for Weir houses shown by the Government, and that, on account of dissatisfaction with the wages paid by Messrs. J. and G. Weir, progress in the erection of a number of houses has been stopped; and whether he will intimate the withdrawal of the call made by the Board of Health upon the principal municipal authorities of Scotland to unite in the erection of Weir houses only, seeing that this course involves increased cost with less efficiency while at the same time acting adversely to the interests of the workmen?
§ Sir J. GILMOURThe Government has not shown any exclusive preference for Weir houses. In fact, in allocating the Demonstration Grant recently sanctioned by the Treasury, the type of new construction was left entirely to the local authorities themselves, subject to the type having been approved by the More Committee. I am aware that the erection 1054 of a number of brick houses in the Middle Ward of Lanarkshire has been stopped owing to claims by the building trade that the work involved: in the construction of the Weir type of house is building trade work. No such call as is referred to in the latter part of the question has been made by the Scottish Board of Health, and I am not to be held as agreeing with the views expressed therein.
§ Mr. SCRYMGEOURIs it not the case that there are 1,035 houses held up, directly and indirectly, through this situation, and that the representation being made by the right hon. Gentleman. and urged at the same time, as I know, by the Minister of Health, is that there should be concentration upon steel houses, and that there is a particular desire to fasten upon Weir houses, even to the exclusion of other steel houses?
§ Sir WILLIAM DAVISONWill the right hon. Gentleman say who is holding up these houses?
§ Mr. KIRKWOODI would like to ask the Secretary for Scotland if there is any truth in the rumour that is going round among certain quarters that he himself told certain local authorities that unless there was a certain percentage of Weir steel houses the grant would be withheld?
§ Sir J. GILMOURNo, Sir, I did not give those terms. What I have said, and what I repeat, is that we must investigate all these problems, and I am meeting the local authorities on Monday next to discuss the matter.
§ Mr. SCRYMGEOURWill the right hon. Gentleman answer my points?
§ Mr. SCRYMGEOURI put certain specific points, and I am asking the Minister to answer. My specific points are down here in a given question, and I want them answered.
§ Sir J. GILMOURTo the best of my ability, I have answered the questions the hon. Member put down.
§ Mr. SCRYMGEOURWhat about the actual number of houses held up?
§ Sir J. GILMOURAs far as I am aware something like 350 houses are at present being held up by the building trade.
§ Mr. SCRYMGEOURI want to know—
§ Mr. SCRYMGEOURThat proves the case.