HC Deb 08 December 1925 vol 189 cc255-7
Sir JOHN MARRIOTT (by Private Notice)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Treasury has now completed the formulation—officially stated to be in preparation in March last—of the British claim against the Irish Free State Government under Article 5 of the Treaty: and if so, what is the amount so formulated; and if not, whether he will state approximately what in the view of His Majesty's Government is the amount of the liability of the. Free State to the British Government under Article 5?

The PRIME MINISTER

A preliminary claim was formulated as a basis of discussion. As regards the remainder of the question, I propose to deal with the matter in Debate this afternoon. I think it would mislead the House if I attempted to give figures without the necessary explanations.

Sir J. MARRIOTT

Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to undertake that the figures to which he alludes will be given before the House is invited to discuss the agreement, that is to say in the first speech from the Government Benches.

The PRIME MINISTER

Certainly, and it will then be clear to my hon. Friend the very limited amount of information which the Government can give, and he will realise the impossibility of dealing with this matter by question and answer. I will give all the information I have.

Mr. THOMAS

Simultaneously with giving that information and in order that the House may judge accurately, will the right hon. Gentleman also give any information, in possession of the Government as to the counter-claim from the Irish Free State under Article 5?

The PRIME MINISTER

I am not sure I have that, but I will certainly give the House all the information I have, and I apologise beforehand for any possible disappointment.

Captain WEDGWOOD BENN

Would this be the right moment, Mr. Speaker, to repeat the question which I put yesterday as to Standing Order 67, or shall I defer it?

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. and gallant Member may perhaps put the question to me now.

Captain BENN

As you are aware, Sir, Standing Order 67 lays down that a Money Resolution is required for the release of any party from any obligation due to the Crown. In the Bill which is now before the House I find that paragraph 2 of the Schedule, line 35, says: The Irish Free State is hereby released from the obligation under Article 5. The point I wish to put is, whether under our Parliamentary forms, which are designed to retain in the hands of this House control over expenditure, the release of this obligation does not involve a Money Resolution in connection with this Bill?

Mr. SPEAKER

Since the hon. and gallant Member raised this point yesterday, I have looked most carefully into the question along with my advisers. I have examined both the Article to which he has just now referred and the Article in the original Agreement, and the result is as follows:

It was laid down and agreed that the Irish Free State should assume an obligation for a certain expenditure to be settled by agreement or, failing agreement, by arbitration, there being also certain sums to be ascertained in the same way which would be set off from the first liability.

The relevant words of Standing Order 67 are or for releasing or compounding any sum of money owing to the Crown. Under the earlier Treaty, the sum is not ascertained, nor has it yet been ascertained. It is possible that the sum to be set off might prove greater than the liability of the Free State. It would seem to me, therefore, that to describe such an unascertained and hypothetical debt as a sum of money owing to one of the parties would be an undue straining of the words of the Standing Order.

Captain BENN

May I ask whether, therefore, your ruling is based upon the assumption that the sum of money due from the Free State might be less than the sum due from Great Britain?

Mr. SPEAKER

No, it is not based on an assumption, but it declines to be based on hypothesis.

Sir J. MARRIOTT

May I very respectfully ask whether in giving that ruling, Sir, you have taken account, of Article 43 in the supplementary heads of the working arrangements for implementing the Treaty, arrangements which were made in January, 1922, but which were not presented to Parliament in the form of a White Taper until July, 1923? That Article 43, if I may respectfully say so, seems to have some bearing on this question.

Mr. SPEAKER

That was also examined by myself and my advisers at the same time.