Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what procedure is to be followed in the event of the Irish Free State Government making representations to him that, amongst the deportees, there are persons who have been guilty of indictable crime; would the trial of such persons take place in Ireland and, if so, for what reasons and under what conditions; particularly, 2098 would an extradition order have to be issued first of all by an English magistrate and would the indicted person be present at the trial preceding the issue of such an order?
§ The ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir Douglas Hogg)I have been asked to reply. The arrangement with the Irish Free State Government is that no proceedings shall be instituted against any of these persons anywhere without the consent of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. My right hon. Friend will, of course, have to be satisfied that there is a primả-facie case before giving his consent, and he has arranged to consult with me in any matter of legal difficulty or doubt. When the consent is given, the person to be tried will be placed in exactly the same position, and dealt with in exactly the same way, as if he had not been deported. If the crime is one committed in England and triable there, application will be made to an English magistrate for a summons or warrant, and the case will be tried before an English magistrate and sent for trial by him, if a primậ facie case is made out. If the crime is one committed in Ireland and triable there, a warrant will be applied for before an Irish magistrate. It will be backed by an English magistrate under the provisions of Section 12 of the Indictable; Offences Act of 1848, and the accused person will then be tried before the Irish magistrate, and by him committed for trial, if a primậ facie case is made out. Whether the trial takes place before an English or an Irish magistrate, the accused person will be present.
§ Mr. W. THORNEAs far as these people are concerned, has the Habeas Corpus Act been suspended?
§ Mr. BUCHANANI want to know what would happen supposing that these men were, say, shot in gaol in Ireland in a fit of passion? What would be the position of the British Government who have deported them? [HON. MEMBERS: "Wait and see!"] I submit that that is an important point. [Interruption.] I have never been to either Oxford or Cambridge, but I have manners. Anything might happen to these men, and I want to know what is the responsibility of the British Government, should anything untoward happen to these men while they are there.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is a matter on which I have a question by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury).
Captain BENNWill the right hon. Gentleman say whether these deportees will have the right, if they desire, of personal access to the Advisory Committee?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALYes, and I ought to say that the third member of the Advisory Committee is Sir Matthew Wallace, J.P., ex-President of the Scottish Chamber of Agriculture, member of the Royal Commission, Defence of the Realm (Losses), 1915–1920, and member of the War Compensation Court. There will be access to the Committee for any of the deportees who wish to see them.
§ Mr. RHYS DAVIESWhat means were there for a solicitor on behalf of any one of these deportees to get into touch with his client during the last few days, and, particularly, what is the position in respect of George Clancy, of Manchester, whose solicitor sent a letter on behalf of this man which has not yet reached him?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI was not aware of the matter referred to in the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question, but if he will send me a statement of facts, I will be glad to inquire into them.
§ Mr. BUCHANANIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain Scottish Members made an effort to get across to meet certain of their constituents, and were not provided with those full facilities to which they thought they were entitled for conversation with these men and inquiry into the subject?
§ The ATTORNEY - GENERALIn answer to a question like this, I gave last week a statement made by the Free State Government that the internees would be allowed to see their legal advisers on points of law and to receive communications from their friends; but I must leave it to the Free State Government to make regulations with regard to other people.
§ Mr. BUCHANANSeeing that the British Government take the responsibility for arresting and deporting these men, why cannot they take the responsibility of allowing, without the sanction of the Free State, Scottish 2100 Members to be with these men? Is the reason that they are afraid that we might get to know the real position and the real reason why these men were arrested?
The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Bridge-man)That is not the reason, but I believe that in the case of all internees there are regulations as to the number of times the internees can see their friends, and which friends they can be allowed to see.
§ Sir J. SIMONTo clear up a misapprehension, do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that these men would be entitled to see their legal advisers on points of law? Is it not the case that they would be entitled to see their authorised legal advisers as to their defence and their case quite generally?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANYes.
§ Mr. MAXTONAm I right in believing that neither the Home Office nor the Scottish Office has any copy of the Regulations and the conditions as to the admission of legal advisers or of visitors to these persons interned in Ireland, and that in fact we have lost all possibility of access to these men?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANIt is not a fact that access to these men has been lost.
§ Mr. MACLEANIf any of these deported people make application either to the Attorney-General or the Home Secretary or to the Secretary for Scotland on the grounds that they wish to be tried under the extradition law, will they be allowed to come back to this country where the trial will be held, and the jurisdiction under which they were taken from this country to Ireland submitted to a British court?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI think that this question is based on a misapprehension of what I explained before was the procedure with regard to these deported persons. Their position, if there is any attempt to try them, will be exactly the same as if they had not been deported. That is with respect to people who are wanted in Ireland, for an offence committed there, and are resident in England, under Section 12 of the Act of 1848, to which I have already 2101 referred, the procedure is by backing a warrant, and not under the Fugitive Offenders Act. So the procedure against these people will be the same as against any other person wanted for offences in Ireland, and no extradition proceedings are available for persons wanted in Ireland.
§ Mr. MACLEANIs it not a fact that the Attorney-General is going back to an Act passed before the Free State Act was passed?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALOf course I am going back to an Act which was passed before the Act of 1922, for the simple reason that the law remains the same, and it was expressly enacted in the 1922 Act that both with regard to Ireland and England it should remain the same. Until it is altered it is the only Act under which these people can be dealt with.
§ Mr. CLYNESHave any steps been taken to inform fully the persons arrested of the conditions and facilities covering the replies which he has given this afternoon?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI am afraid that I would like to have notice of that question.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEEIs it not a fact that these men have been deported under a Statute made by this House which expressly suspended the Habeas Corpus Act with reference of rebellion in Ireland, and that these men are simply shut up and that there is no necessity whatever for all these questions?
§ Mr. BUCHANANIn view of the unsatisfactory answers, may I be allowed to move the Adjournment of the House on a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the failure of the Government to provide access to the interned persons by their Parliamentary representatives.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member must ask leave to make that Motion when we have disposed of the other questions.
§ Mr. PRINGLEMay I repeat the question of the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) which the Home Secretary did not answer, namely, whether the Home Office or the Scottish Office actually know 2102 the regulations regarding access made by the Irish Free State Government?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI should like to have notice of that question. Obviously, I do not want to misquote.
§ Mr. SHAKESPEAREMay I ask whether, on the Internment Orders which the right hon. Gentleman signed, the place of internment was in Ireland?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANYes, Sir.
§ Mr. SHAKESPEAREHow is it that such a place of internment can be mentioned, considering that Ireland is now outside the jurisdiction of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANThe warrant said a place within the Free State portion of Ireland.
§ Mr. SHAKESPEAREIs it not a fact that the Free State is now outside the jurisdiction of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANNo, Sir.
§ Mr. SAKLATVALAMay we take it from the answers given that there is no possibility of any of the interned persons being tried by court-martial in Ireland?
§ The ATTORNEY - GENERALCertainly, there is no such possibility.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNORMay I ask whether a citizen of this country, born in this country and living all his or her life in this country, who happened to be of Irish or other blood but is actually a British subject, can be tried in Ireland for an offence alleged to have been committed in Ireland without previously having an extradition order given by a British court, a court of the country in which he has been born and has lived; and whether there is any case in legal history where a British subject or any other subject—a French or a German subject—has been extradited for trial to another country without the due process of law in a police court giving the right of extradition?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALThere are two questions. The first question is whether somebody resident in this country and born here—it makes no difference, of course, where they were born—can be tried in Ireland for an offence committed in Ireland. The answer is "Yes." The 2103 second question is whether or not there is a precedent for somebody to be moved from this country without due process of law. Again, the answer is "No," and it is not without due process of law that these people were moved if such an event took place. It is only because, as I understand the law, that one means of bringing a person resident in England to Ireland for trial for an offence committed in Ireland—[Interruption.] If the offence be committed in England and triable in England, obviously they would not be moved to Ireland—[HON. MEMBERS: "They have been."]—and my answer to the hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, I think, made that clear; at least, I tried to make it clear. The question addressed to me just now was one with regard to people who were charged with an offence triable in Ireland, and the question was whether they would be removed to Ireland although resident in this country. The answer is "Yes." But it does not depend upon their being interned; it depends upon the fact that the English law provides that a person resident in England and wanted for an offence triable in Ireland can only be obtained on an Irish warrant backed in this country.
Mr. MacDONALDAre we to understand that in this warrant the right hon. Gentleman inserted a place under the jurisdiction of the Irish Government as being the place to which he sent deportees from this country? And are we to understand that the Irish Free State Government recognises the jurisdiction of the right hon. Gentleman in fixing places of internment in their country?
§ Mr. BR1DGEMANI did not name the actual place for the internment. The Regulation gives me power to intern these people in the British Isles.
§ Mr. J. JONESIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that at least half-a-dozen of the people arrested in London have never been in Ireland in their lives?
§ Mr. O'CONNORCan the Attorney-General give me any instance where the French Government or the German Government or any other Government has been able by mere order of the Home Secretary to extradite from this country a person accused of a crime in France, 2104 Germany, or wherever it may be, without due application and due approval of that extradition by the Courts of this country?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is the very question which was asked last Monday, and on which the Adjournment of the House was moved and debated—the question of the power of the Home Secretary, and also his discretion in using that power.
Mr. MacDONALDMay I push this question further? Is it not a fact that the warrant issued by the right hon. Gentleman regarding the place of detention is vague and mentions no place at all, but simply states "in such place as the Irish Free State Government may determine," and, if so, is that in accordance with the provisions of the Orders issued under the Act of 1922?
§ Mr. BR1DGEMANYes, it is in accordance with those provisions. The words which the hon. Gentleman has read out are, I think, the words contained in the actual warrant. I think he is reading from the warrant.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANYes, and it is perfectly correct. The power I have under that Order is to send people for internment in the British Isles.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIs it the "British Isles" or the "United Kingdom," because the "United Kingdom" has ceased to exist?
Captain BENNIs there any precedent whatever for the Home Secretary ordering the internment of these persons in an area outside his jurisdiction?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI should like notice of that question.
§ Mr. WRIGHTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of the deportees have not yet communicated with their friends at all, and will provision be made to remove anxiety from the minds of their parents and relatives with regard to the place where they are interned?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI think that point comes up on the question to be asked by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury).
§ Mr. LANSBURY(by Private Notice) asked the Home Secretary if he will inform the House in what districts the prison or internment camps are situated to which British citizens and citizens of the Irish Free State have been deported; whether he is aware that many persons have been shot during imprisonment in Mountjoy Prison, and that many windows in this building have been destroyed. [Laughter.] It is very nice to laugh at people being shot. Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House what Act of Parliament gives him authority to deport British citizens, assumed to be guilty of crimes against the Government of Great Britain, out of this country to countries outside the judicial jurisdiction of this country; and, further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are no visiting justices of the Irish prisons, such office having been abolished?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI am informed that all the interned prisoners are lodged in Mountjoy Prison, and that any change of location of internment will be duly notified to their relatives. As I have already explained, these persons are interned in the Irish Free State in pursuance of orders made by me or by the Secretary for Scotland in the exercise of powers conferred by the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, 1920. As regards the last part of the question, I would observe that these persons are interned, and therefore no question of visiting justices arise.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIs it not a fact well known to everyone here that many persons—not one or two—have been shot, not in the ordinary way, judicially? [Laughter.] I do not know what there is to laugh at. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that prisoners have been shot at accidentally and casually, and is there any guarantee that on exercising in the grounds, or even in their own cells, some of these British citizens will not be shot in the same way?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANNo, I am not aware of those facts. I have already said that the Irish Free State Government have undertaken to do nothing but intern these men and women without agreement with His Majesty's Government.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIt is not a question of the Irish Free State Government order- 2106 ing the execution, but of men being shot in those prisons merely by accident. [Laughter.] You will probably be shot some day yourselves.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI must presume that the Irish Free State Government will provide for the safety of these men.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf we are to have a Debate on this subject at 8.15, we must not have one now.
§ Mr. MACLEANI should like to ask the Home Secretary if it be not the case that a Warrant ordering the internment of an individual must state specifically the place where that individual is to be interned?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI understand not.
§ Mr. BUCHANAN(by Private Notice) asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland, whether he is aware that many of the families of the men who have been arrested and deported to Ireland are approaching a state of destitution; and whether any arrangements are being made for their maintenance apart from the Poor Law?
§ Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland)No such cases have been brought to my notice. If such cases arise, the question will be considered, taking account of the practice in cases arising under similar Regulations in the past.
§ Mr. O'CONNORI presume that observation will apply to Ireland, and that inquiries will be made as to the condition of those families.
§ At the end of Questions—
§ Mr. BUCHANANI beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the situation of the deportees in Mountjoy Prison, in Ireland, and the responsibility of His Majesty's Government in the matter.
§ The PRIME MINISTEROn a point of Order. I submit that that is precisely the same question as was debated last week.
§ Mr. LANSBURYBefore you answer that point of Order, Mr. Speaker, may I suggest that the question of the safety of the prisoners was not discussed last 2107 week at all. We had then no knowledge where the prisoners were.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member who raised this question is not very experienced in drafting. I think that the point to which he wishes to call attention is this—the failure of the Government to maintain control over the conditions under which the persons are interned. That, I think, is a question which was not covered by the Debate of last week.
§ Mr. BUCHANANThat is the point, and I must thank you for the correction. I will redraft my Motion in accordance with your wishes.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House, in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the neglect of the Government to maintain control over the conditions under which the persons deported are interned in Ireland. Has the hon. Member the leave of the House?
§ The pleasure of the House not having been signified, Mr. Speaker called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and not fewer than 40 Members having accordingly risen,
§ The Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, until a quarter past Eight this evening.