HC Deb 12 March 1923 vol 161 cc1048-53
Viscount CURZON

(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there is a Private Bill set down for discussion to-night at 8.15 that will probably continue till 11 o'clock, and will therefore seriously curtail the discussion on the Motion to get Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on the Navy Estimates, and whether, in these circumstances, it will be possible for him to give further time for discussion of the Navy Votes in Committee?

Commander BELLAIRS

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has not departed from the customary procedure of this House before the War by which we had the whole day for the discussion on the Motion to get Mr. Speaker out of the Chair? It was the invariable practice before the War.


The answer to the question will show that we are not departing from, the custom. I am aware of the circumstances, as stated by the Noble Lord. The House will realise that the setting down of Private Bills for discussion at 8.15 is a matter for the Chairman of Ways and Means and does not rest with the Government. I hope very much that the House will be able to give us the Committee stage of the Votes on the Paper at not too late an hour to-night, and, while it is not possible for me definitely to promise to give further time before Easter in view of the fact that the Consolidated Fund Bill must he taken before Monday week, I hope that, by arrangement, the Navy Votes may be taken on an early Supply Day after the reassembling of the House.

Commander BELLAIRS

The Prime Minister has not dealt with the customary procedure. In 1910–1911 and 1912 we had a whole day for the discussion of the Motion to get Mr. Speaker out of the Chair. The only departure was in 1913 when the House assembled for the Session on 12th March. Can the right hon. Gentleman do something to help us in the situation?


Is the Prime Minister aware that there can be no other day for a general discussion or The discussion of Vote A, because the other discussions must take place on other Votes?


Is not the only remedy of hon. Gentlemen to vote against the Motion for the suspension of the 11 o'clock Rule?


I do not think that I can add anything to the reply which I have given. My hon. and gallant Friend has himself shown that the Rule is not an absolute one.


May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury when we shall be able to get the Army Estimates in the Vote Office?


They are in the Vote Office now.


May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether anything else besides the Navy Estimates is to be taken to-night under the suspension of the 11 o'clock Rule?



Commander BELLAIRS

May I ask you, Sir, whether we shall be allowed to carry on the policy discussion on Vote I on Report, and whether we can circumscribe the discussion by discussing the Air question wholly on the Air Vote; and may I ask the Prime Minister whether he will give us the Vote for the Committee of Defence at a, later date, so that we can discuss the question of a Ministry of Defence which several Members wish to raise?


If it be the desire of the House, I shall be willing to do that in the circumstances, if the Votes be passed to-night in a short space of time. I recollect that it was done on a previous occasion, when wider scope was given on the Report stage. I think that will be a proper thing to do.

With regard to the other question raised by the hon. and gallant Member, T observe that the first two notices on the Paper for going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates raise that question, and it would seem more appropriate to take that kind of discussion on Wednesday.

Captain BENN

May we be assured that the First Lord of the Admiralty will be present on Wednesday to answer for what has been done by his Department?


And will the Secretary of State for the Air Ministry be here to answer questions for his Department?

Motion made, and Question put,

That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—{The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 136.

Division No. 32.] AYES. [4.7 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague
Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Baird Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Barnett, Major Richard W.
Amery, Ht. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Barnston, Major Harry
Apsley, Lord Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Harrison, F. C. Pease, William Edwin
Betterton, Henry B. Harvey, Major S. E. Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hawke, John Anthony Penny, Frederick George
Blades, Sir George Rowland Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Blundell, F. N Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Peto, Basil E.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil) Pielou, D. P.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Pownall, Lieut. Colonel Assheton
Brass, Captain W. Hewett. Sir J. P. Privett, F. J.
Brittain, Sir Harry Hiley, Sir Ernest Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Nawbury) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Bruford, R. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Remer, J. R.
Bruton, Sir James Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Remnant, Sir James
Buckingham, Sir H. Hood, Sir Joseph Rentoul, G. S.
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hopkins, John W. W. Reynolds, W. G. W.
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)
Burney, Com- (Middx., Uxbridge) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Butcher, Sir John George Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Hudson, Capt. A. Roberts, Rt. Hon. sir S. (Ecclesall)
Butt, Sir Alfred Hughes, Collingwood Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.)
Button, H. S. Hurd, Percy A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)
Cadogan, Major Edward Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Rogerson, Capt. J. E.
Campion, Lieut. -Colonel W. R. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Cautley, Henry Strother Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Ruggles-Brise, Major E.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Russell, William (Bolton)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Jarrett, G. W. S. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Jephcott, A. R. Sandon, Lord
Chapman, Sir S. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Shepperson, E. W.
Churchman, Sir Arthur Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Shipwright, Captain D.
Clarry, Reginald George King, Captain Henry Douglas Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Clayton, G. C. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Singleton, J. E.
Coates, Lt.-Cot. Norman Lamb, J. Q. Skelton, A. N.
Cobb. Sir Cyril Lane-Fox, Lieut. Colonel G. R. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)
Collie, Sir John Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Colvin, Brig-General Richard Beale Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Sparkes, H. W.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.
Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Lorimer, H. D. Stanley, Lord
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lowe, Sir Francis William Steel, Major S. Strang
Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead) Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lumley, L. R. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.
Dawson, Sir Philip Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Doyle, N. Grattan Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Du Pre, Colonel William Baring McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)
Edmondson, Major A. J. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Ednam, Viscount Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Manviile, Edward Tubbs, S. W.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Margesson, H. D. R. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Erskine-Boist, Captain C. Mercer. Colonel H. Wallace, Captain E.
Eyres Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Faile, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Mitchell, W F. (Saffron Walden) Waring, Major Walter
Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Wells. S. R.
Foreman, Sir Henry Molson, Major John Elsdale White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)
Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Whitla, Sir William
Fraser, Major Sir Keith Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)
Frece, Sir Walter de Morden, Col. W. Grant Winterton, Eart
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Wise, Frederick
Furness, G. J. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Wolmer, Viscount
Ganzonl, Sir John Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)
Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Murchison, C. K. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Goff, Sir R. Park Murray, John (Leeds, West) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Greaves-Lord, Walter Nesbitt, Robert C. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Yerburgh. R. D. T.
Guthrie, Thomas Maule Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)
Gwynne, Rupert S. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J.(Westminster) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hall, Lieut. Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel
Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Nield, Sir Herbert Gibbs.
Halstead, Major D. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John
Adams, D. Barnes, A. Briant, Frank
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Batey, Joseph Broad, F. A.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Buchanan, G.
Ammon, Charles George Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Buckle, J.
Attlee, C. R. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Burgess, S.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)
Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Richards, R.
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) John, William (Rhondda, West) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le Spring)
Chapple, W. A. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Roberts, C. H. (Derby)
Charleton, H. C. Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Clarke, Sir E. C. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Rose, Frank H.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly) Royce, William Stapleton
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Saklatvala, S.
Darbishire, C. W. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Salter, Dr. A.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Kirkwood, D. Sexton, James
Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)
Duncan, C. Lansbury, George Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Dunnico, H. Leach, W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Ede, James Chuter Lee, F. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Edmonds, G. Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Simpson, J. Hope
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lewis, Thomas A. Sinclair, Sir A.
Fairbairn, R. R. Linfield, F. C. Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Falconer, J. Lowth, T. Snell, Harry
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Gosling, Harry M'Entee, V. L. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) McLaren, Andrew Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Gray, Frank (Oxford) March, S. Thornton, M.
Greenall, T. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Tillett, Benjamin
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Trevelyan, C. P.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Maxton, James Wallhead, Richard C.
Groves, T. Millar, J. D. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Hall, P. (York, W.R., Normanton) Morel, E. D. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Webb, Sidney
Harbord, Arthur Mosley, Oswald Wedgwood, Colonel Joslah C.
Harris. Percy A. Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) Weir, L. M.
Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Newbold, J. T. W. White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)
Hayday, Arthur Nlchol, Robert Whiteley, W.
Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) O'Connor, Thomas P. Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) O'Grady, Captain James Williams, T (York. Don Valley)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Paling, W. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hillary, A. E. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wintringham, Margaret
Hirst, G. H. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Hodge. Rt. Hon. John Phillipps, Vivian Wright, W.
Hogge, James Myles Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Potts, John S.
Irving, Dan Prlngle, W. M. R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Neil Maclean and Mr. Lunn.