§ 25. Mr. J. HOPE SIMPSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in cases of overpayment of pensions, he can see his way to order recovery of the overpaid amount from the official responsible for the mistake in place of recovering from the innocent pensioner, to whom deduction from pension in many cases causes extreme financial embarrassment and anxiety?
§ Major TRYONIt has been and still is the practice of my Department to take appropriate disciplinary action against any officer of the Ministry who, owing to gross carelessness, is responsible for overpayments to pensioners.
§ Mr. SIMPSONDoes the right hon. Gentleman think that is sufficient? The fault is not the fault of the pensioner, and he is put to great inconvenience. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman see his way to allow the Government, for instance, to bear the loss?
§ Major TRYONNinety-seven per cent. of the men employed in this Ministry are ex-service men, and I am not prepared to make them repay possibly large sums. That is the proposal in the question, to penalise our ex-service men. [HON. MEMBERS: "No! "] The proposal is to make the officials responsible for the mistake repay the money. I am not prepared to do that.
§ Mr. STURROCKIs it not the case that collection of these overpayments is a very costly proceeding, and would the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of wiping them all out and making it a national charge?
§ Major TRYONIt is obvious that I could not defend failure to reclaim money which has been wrongly obtained from the taxpayers' resources. We hope by our organisation, which is to be greatly improved, that there will be far fewer cases now of mistakes. I have been going into this question of reclaims, and we are now getting it on to a footing where there will be far fewer of these reclaims, which we are anxious to avoid if we can.
§ Mr. WEBBWill not the right hon. Gentleman consider that there is a distinction between mistakes arising out of ignorance of the law and arising out of mistakes of fact, and would he not take upon his own Department the liability for issues which are made merely with regard to some error or with regard to regulations, quite irrespective of issues made owing to mistakes of fact?
§ Mr. MACPHERSONis it net a fact that the Department considers each case individually on its merits and that in almost every case they are sympathetically considered from the point of view of the pensioner; and is it not a fact that it is not the right hon. Gentleman's Department that is really concerned but the Treasury?
§ Major TRYONIt is undoubtedly the fact that the Government, as a whole, have to answer for the money with which they are entrusted, and it is impossible 1279 to justify sums which ought not to have been spent. On the other hand, there is the difference pointed out by the hon. Member opposite between cases where a pensioner has obtained money through misstatements and cases of simple error. We consider those cases on their merits. In cases of severe hardship we take occasion to remit the claim and in many cases that is being done now, and I am issuing orders on the subject.