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In the application of this Act to Scotland—
§ Mr. JOHNSTONEI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "Secretary for Scotland" and to insert instead thereof the words "Scottish Board of Health."
Under the Ministry of Health Bill the duties of the Registrar-General were transferred to the Minister of Health. 107 Similarly in Scotland the duties of the Registrar-General as regards births, deaths, and marriages were transferred to the Scottish Board of Health. In this Bill, in its application to Scotland, it is provided that the name of the Secretary for Scotland shall be substituted for that of the Minister for Health. I do not know why this differentiation should be made in regard to Scotland. Does it mean that the Scottish Office in London will supervise the census instead of the Scottish Board of Health in Edinburgh? Surely if in England the supervising authority for the census be the Minister of Health it ought to be provided that in Scotland the Scottish Board of Health should be entrusted with the supervision of the census there!
My Amendment would not in any way deprive the Secretary for Scotland, who is President of the Board of Health, of any of his controlling powers. There is also the Vice-President representing the Board. In any event, it is surely proper that the census in Scotland should be controlled by the Board of Health. The Secretary for Scotland may have good reasons to urge why the Secretary for Scotland should be in this part of the Bill substituted for the Board of Health. Perhaps he will be able to relieve my mind on the subject. What I generally object to is that we should have to come to London for what may very well be done in Edinburgh. I hope my fears are groundless, and if my right hon. Friend can reassure me on this point I will not press my Amendment.
§ The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. Munro)I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. I hope, also, that I shall be able in a few sentences to reassure him on the subject. The reason why the Secretary for Scotland is inserted instead of the Board of Health is because the Census inquiries cover a very much wider field than the functions of the Board of Health. If my hon. Friend will look at the Schedule, he will find in regard to a number of the inquiries, for example, those which relate to occupation, profession, trade or employment, birth-place, nationality, and so on, that the Home Office is involved, that the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries is involved, that the Ministry of Labour is involved. In regard to Question 6 the Board of Health is involved, and the 108 Board of Education in respect of No. 5. It is quite true, as he says, that, so far as births, marriages, and deaths are concerned, these matters come under the Board of Health. But then vital statistics are fully germane to the work of that Board. These other inquiries, as I have endeavoured to point out, cover a very much wider field, and also impinge upon the functions of the Government actuary, the Inland Revenue Department, and the Ministry of Pensions. The House will see that the claims of these various authorities may compete or conflict, and may require conciliation or adjustment. It seems to me that the appropriate Minister for the purpose is the Minister who is wholly responsible for, and has control of, Scottish affairs.
There is another reason which points in the same direction: we should have the greatest possible measure of uniformity in the Census as between England and Scotland consistently with the due recognition of national characteristics. That requires that the supervising authority for Scotland should be in close touch with the supervising authority for England and Wales—with the Department of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Health, as well as other Departments in London, such as the Ministry of Labour, whose administration extends to Scotland. This can best be done, I think, by the Department of the Secretary for Scotland, as the central and co-ordinating authority. If my hon. Friend suggests, or thinks, that the Board of Health is likely to be robbed of any of its rights under the proposal, he is quite mistaken. Scottish interests will be secured by conferences among the officials of the Departments in Edinburgh, or, if it be more convenient, by the attendance of representatives from Edinburgh at a conference held in London. If my hon. Friend suggests that there is some difference in what is proposed in regard to the Minister of Health in England, and the Secretary for Scotland in Scotland, he must remember that the Minister of Health becomes the supervising authority in England—and my right hon. Friend (Dr. Addison) will bear me out in this—not by the transference of powers from other Departments, but by inheritance from the Local Government Board. In Scotland, the Secretary for Scotland, and not the Local Government Board, 109 was the supervising census authority in the past. The Minister of Health in England, under the Act, is the supervising authority for census purposes, and certainly acts in a much wider capacity than in the discharge of his ordinary health functions If I may say so, with all respect and deference, there is not in England or Wales any single Minister who has the weight of the general charge of the country's affairs on his shoulders as has the Secretary for Scotland. In the light of these considerations, and having given my hon. Friend, I think, the assurance he desires, I hope he will not press the Amendment, and, indeed, that he may now see his way to withdraw it.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONEI am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend for his lucid explanation, and, in view of it, I ask leave to withdraw.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ The CHAIRMANMay I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland, that in regard to his next Amendment, there is no need to propose to leave out words underlined.
§ Mr. MUNROI desire to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words
The expression 'local authority' in the Section of this Act relating to the taking of a local census shall mean a county or town council,and to insert instead thereof the wordsThe local authorities, to which the Section of this Act relating to the taking of a local census applies, shall be the councils of the counties and burghs, and any expenses incurred by such councils under this Act.This is really an Amendment consequential upon the alteration that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health has made in Clause 6. It is really a drafting Amendment, and I do not think it requires any further explanation to the House beyond this: I have endeavoured to give effect, so far as Scotland is concerned, to the same principles and practice as my right hon. Friend has adopted in regard to England. I will read this manuscript Amendment, so that the House may appreciate what it proposes to do, and I apologise for it being in manuscript. The reason for that is that it hinged upon the adoption of the Amendment of the Minister of Health in Clause 6. You, Mr. Whitley, may put it in two sections, but perhaps you will permit me to read it as one.
§ The CHAIRMANI think the simplest way, perhaps, would be to leave out the whole sub-section and then insert the words required.
§ Mr. MUNROI beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2), and to insert instead thereof the following new Sub-section:
(2) The local authorities to which the Section of this Act relating to taking the local census applies shall be the councils of the counties and the burghs, and any expenses incurred by such under this Act shall he defrayed in the case of a county council out of the general purposes rate, and in the case of the town council out of the burgh general improvement assessment, or any other assessment leviable in equal proportions on owners and occupiers, provided that the ratepayers of a police burgh shall not be assessed by the county council for any such expenses.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONEI am not sure whether I should be in order at this point to move my Amendment adding to these authorities the Insurance Committees.
§ The CHAIRMANWhen I put the question "That the words proposed be inserted there" they will be capable of Amendment, but let me first of all get the other words out of the Bill.
§ Question "That Sub-section (2) stand part of the Bill," put and negatived.
§ Question "That the proposed words be there inserted."
§ The CHAIRMANI do not quite see how the words "Insurance Committees" will read into the others. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to substitute "Insurance Committees" for the other local authorities?
§ Mr. JOHNSTONENo, Sir, but in addition to the county council and burgh councils who act as authorities, there are insurance committees, both in counties and burghs, and I desire that the insurance committee should have the right or the power to make an application for this local census.
§ Mr. MUNROMay I say that if I can in any way facilitate my hon. Friend in moving his Amendment I shall be glad to do so. I told him of the manuscript Amendment I was going to propose, and suggested to him that he might be permitted to propose an Amendment to my manuscript Amendment.
§ The CHAIRMANI am only trying to assist the hon. Gentleman to the best 111 words. I will take his words and see how they read.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONEI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "burghs" ["councils of the counties and the burghs"], to insert the words "or the insurance committees."
The purpose of this Amendment is to provide that the insurance committee of the district may represent to the Board the desirability of a local census. It might be desirable for the Insurance Committee to secure certain health statistics, especially if there is any alteration in the system of obtaining statistics in regard to the population in the different areas. One of the vexed questions in connection with insurance is the unreliability of the index register system. In a very ordinary insurance committee area comprising 40,000 persons, there is a divergence to the extent of 2,000 or 3,000 persons on the register. For a variety of reasons the register is never up-to-date or accurate, and long delays have taken place in the payments made by the Committees. The only practical method of displacing the present index card system is that each area should be dealt with on the basis of population. In order to arrive at the number of insured persons in a given area it is extremely desirable that insurance committees should have the right to take a local census, and if a scheme of this sort matured, it would empower an area to approach the Board for permission to take a local census, and they would require a good case to be made out before giving their sanction. I propose that the cost of the taking of such census should be borne out of the sum available for administration expenses. I think insurance committees ought to have this power of applying for permission to take a local census.
§ Mr. MUNROThe object of my hon. Friend's Amendment is to put an Insurance Committee in the same position as a local authority, and enable it to apply to the Central Authority for permission to take a local census. I hope, on reflection, that my hon. Friend will not press this view. On general grounds I think it is undesirable to have frequent inquiries of this kind, because it tends to irritate the public. There is a reasonable check 112 upon the undue frequency of local censuses in the present Bill, because it provides for the payment of the costs out of the rates, and that would be a salutary check upon unnecessary and wasteful inquiries.
What is the position of the Insurance Committees? If they were given similar powers the cost would be borne by the sums available for the administrative expenses of those Committees, and three-fourths of those sums are contributed by the State. Accordingly you would introduce a new principle in conflict with the principle of the Bill, namely, that the Exchequer would be called upon substantially to meet the cost of the local census. My hon. Friend argued that it was desirable to secure reliable figures regarding insured persons. That matter is now under consideration I do not think, however, that this is the way to do it. It is clear that if such a basis of apportionment were adopted it would have to be stereotyped for all areas till the next census. If you had a revision of one particular area, you would want to have it for another. If the enquiry were granted the result would be constant unsettlement and irritation. If the enquiry were refused there would be a sense of grievance. If the census figures were adopted as a basis of apportionment, the only course is to make them a permanent basis without any readjustment between the dates of the respective censuses. This Amendment does not follow the principle of the Bill. It would not work well and I suggest that reliable figures can be obtained in a less objectionable manner than my hon. Friend proposes
§ Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 9 (Short title and extent) ordered to stand part of the Bill.