HC Deb 09 August 1920 vol 133 cc100-6

"(1) If any person—

  1. (a) refuses or neglects to comply with or acts in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act or any Order in Council or regulations made under this Act; or
  2. (b) being a person required under this Act to make a statutory declaration with respect to the performance of his duties, makes a false declaration; or
  3. (c) being a person required by any Order in Council or regulations made under this Act to make, sign, or deliver any document, makes, signs, or delivers, or causes to be made, signed, or delivered a false document; or
  4. (d) being a person required in pursuance of any such Order in Council or regulations to answer any question, refuses to answer or gives a false answer to that question;
he shall for each offence be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.

(2) If any person—

  1. (a) being a person employed in taking a census, without lawful authority publishes or communicates to any person any information acquired by him in the course of his employment; or
  2. (b) having possession of any information which to his knowledge has been disclosed in contravention of this Act, publishes or communicates that information to any other person;

he shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and shall on conviction be liable to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine, or to both such imprisonment and fine.

Mr. DENNIS HERBERT

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2, a), to leave out the words, "without lawful authority."

I have put this Amendment down with the object of getting from the Government some assurance or statement as to the degree of secrecy which will be observed in regard to returns, and I have a further Amendment down which, if carried, would make the paragraph read: If any person, being a person employed in taking a census, publishes or communicates to any person otherwise than in the ordinary course of such employment to a person or persons employed in taking that census any information acquired by him in the course of his employment. The right hon. Gentleman's attention was drawn on Second Reading to the fact that the inquiries proposed to be made under this Bill are very wide indeed, and until he moved the Amendment which he did this afternoon, there was really no limit to them, but even apart from that particular paragraph in the Schedule, the other inquiries which may be made are very much more extensive than under the previous Census Act, and if in particular there are to be inquiries about infirmities and disabilities of any and every kind without any sort of restriction, it surely is a matter of very great importance to the individual concerned, and it is in the interests of the Government that there should not be great resentment roused by these inquiries and by the possibility, or indeed, in some cases, the probability, of their becoming known improperly, unless some very strong steps are taken to ensure the absolute secrecy of these returns. I think my Amendment would tend to make it more certain, but I do not want to press it too far if we can have a satisfactory assurance from the Minister as to the degree of secrecy which is going to be observed. Some people to whom I have spoken are a little disquieted about the intentions of the Government in regard to the inquiries in this census.

The Second Reading was supported by a Member of the medical profession, and no doubt rightly from his own professional point of view, because the medical profession would be able to make very great use of the Bill; but I think we are entitled to ask whether there is going to be such use made of these returns that everybody who is honest enough to confess to an infirmity or disability that he or she believes he or she has got, is going to have that fact published locally. We should also like to know a little more as to what is intended, because if every infirmity or disability from which every person is suffering is to be put down, it will entail nothing less than the medical examination of the whole household. If you put down all the disabilities from which some people think they are suffering, you may get something upon which the doctors may not agree, and again, on the other hand, we were shown in the late War that many people were suffering for years from disabilities of which they were quite unaware, and therefore a medical examination would be required if we are to get down all the disabilities from which a person may be suffering. I hope at least we shall get an assurance that the information obtained will not be published to the prejudice of the individuals concerned.

Sir F. BANBURY

I think this is an extremely important Amendment, and I hope the Government will accept it, because it seems to me that the words which the hon. Member proposes to move in will safeguard the professional census taker in the exercise of his duties. I cannot see that the Government are in any way damaged by accepting the Amendment, but, on the other hand, if they do not accept it, I am afraid a loophole will be left. You may have, and you probably will have, a large number of people taking this census. All of us sometimes commit acts of indiscretion when we are talking to friends, especially if we are smoking, or something of that sort, and we let out things which we ought not to let out. Under this census, unless we alter the Schedule, the secrets of a household will become known to the person taking the census, and therefore we should be very careful how we word the Bill. In regard to the words "lawful authority," is there any definition of such a term as that? If a man was prosecuted in a court of law for having revealed something which he had ascertained in the course of his business of taking a census, and said he had lawful authority, what is the lawful authority? Is it merely the authority of his superior officer or of the Minister in charge of the Bill? I do not think the Government will be hurt in any way by accepting the Amendment, whereas if they do not accept it, it may put power into the hands of people, perhaps quite unintentionally, to create mischief. It is all very well to say that disabilities must be disclosed, but there are a large number of people suffering from disabilities who do not want to disclose to everybody what their disabilities are, and unless great care is taken, are we not by this Clause opening the door to blackmail? A Mr. Jones may have got some disability which he desires to keep secret, and, being an honest man, he reveals it to the census taker. What is there to prevent the man who takes the census going round to Mr. Jones and saying, "I can get lawful authority to communicate this, and if you do not give me £10 I shall disclose it." One really must guard against such eventualities it one is really going to pry into everybody's domestic economy. Therefore, I should like to congratulate the hon. Gentleman for having moved this Amendment and raised this question.

Dr. ADDISON

Of course, for officials to use information acquired under this Bill for the purposes of blackmail would be entirely wrong, and if this Amendment will help us to guard the public against that, and at the same time secure the benefits which the community may expect to obtain in various ways from having a Census taken, there would be a good deal to say for it, but, in the first place, there is nothing new in this particular phrase in a Census Bill. It was in the last Census Act. The Schedule to this Bill is practically identical with the first seven items of inquiry in the Census of 1911. It goes no further. Therefore, the point that more extensive inquiries are possible under this Bill than under the last Census is not, confirmed.

Mr. HERBERT

There were only the most definite and restricted questions as to infirmity or disability under the Act of 1910.

Dr. ADDISON

I have here the questions asked in 1911, and I think I am correct in saying they are about as extensive as you can have. I think a good many of them are quite useless, and I do not propose to ask all those questions, we did examine whether we needed the words "infirmity or disability" at all, because it is a vague term, but I found in some special cases, such as the Bill for dealing with blind persons, which we have just passed through the House, it might be very desirable that they should have a special register of blind persons so as to know the extent to which they should make provision under the Act and so forth. I come to consider whether my hon. Friend's words would do any good, and am sorry to say they would not. Although I am not a lawyer, it is quite clear that nobody would be entitled to disclose information as to the Census unless he had been instructed so to disclose it by some person who had lawful authority over him in the exercise of his duties. It is very questionable as to whether the people who forward the Census returns are really the people employed in taking the Census. I am advised that if these words were omitted it might well be illegal for certain of these officers to send up returns, and certainly illegal for the Registrar-General to publish the result of the Census.

Mr. HERBERT

Surely it would not prohibit the Government.

Dr. ADDISON

Yes. The effect of the Amendment would be that even the Registrar-General would not be able to publish the statistics. The Amendment would stultify the whole census. Of course it is clear that lawful authority would be required, and we have to issue Regulations giving instructions as to how this is to be carried out. I will see to it that in the Regulations issued we define as well as we can the safeguards against any disclosure, and I will see that the Regulations particularly deal with this point. But I am sure my hon. Friend would do much harm and no good by this Amendment.

Mr. RAWLINSON

The right hon. Gentleman's speech divided itself into two parts. The first part was that in which he said there was no extension of the powers given by the Government in this Bill over the 1910 Act, except under Clause 8. That I must respectfully controvert entirely, and particularly with regard to the point as to infirmity. The hon. Member who moved this Amendment has an Amendment to the Schedule to omit the words "infirmity or disability," and I shall certainly support him when he comes to move it, because the word "infirmity" is far wider than any word in the Act of 1910, and, in fact, might include such things as consumption, cancer, and diseases of that sort. I therefore enter a caveat against the right hon. Gentleman's statement that he is taking no greater powers in this Bill than in the 1910 Act. Undoubtedly the Bill does take greater powers. Personally, I do not see the harm of these words. My right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) put a question to me, and I am always willing to oblige him, but I should prefer to have notice of that, and would refer him to the Law Officers of the Crown, who, no doubt, will give him a proper answer when the Bill comes up for Third Reading. I shall not support my hon. Friend if he goes to a Division, but I shall certainly support his Amendment to the Schedule restricting the powers of the Government to what they got under the 1910 Act.

Major BARNETT

I wish to move to amend this Amendment by leaving out the last words, namely, "to a person or persons employed in taking that census."

The CHAIRMAN

It is rather difficult to do that, because we are at present discussing the Amendment to leave out the words "without lawful authority."

Mr. HERBERT

I was thinking rather that I was moving the two together, but certainly, so far as the first Amendment is concerned, I shall be glad to withdraw that at once in order to enable us to discuss the words in the second Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. HERBERT

I beg to move, in Subsection (2, a), after the word "person" ["communicates to any person"], to insert the words otherwise than in the ordinary course of such employment to a person or persons employed in taking that census,

Major BARNETT

I beg to move as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment to leave out the words "to a person or persons employed in taking that census."

6.0 P.M.

My right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill has pointed out that the words as they stand would involve an absurdity and prevent those taking the census from communicating the information so obtained to the public. Although we have retained the words "without lawful authority," I hope they will be left out as consequential if the words "otherwise than in the ordinary course of such employment" are inserted.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.