WAR EMERGENCY LAWS (CONTINUANCE) [MONEY]. (Hansard, 31 October 1919)

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir E. Pollock)
I beg to move, That it is expedient to make such provision as may become necessary by reason of the temporary continuance, by any Act of the present Session to continue temporarily certain emergency enactments and Regulations, and to make provision with respect to the expiration of emergency enactments and instruments made thereunder, of the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act, 1914, and the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act, 1914 (Session 2). Perhaps a little explanation will be welcomed by the House as to the need for this Financial Resolution. The body of the Resolution contains the somewhat long Title of the Act which we discussed earlier in the week, but the actual terms of this Resolution may be read in this way, that it is expedient to make such provision as may become necessary by reason of the temporary continuance of the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act, 1914, and the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act, 1914 (Session 2). I eliminate the unimportant words. It will be observed by hon. Members 1082 that in the War Emergency Laws (Continuance) Bill provision is taken in Schedule 1 for the continuance of two Acts. The first is the injuries in War. (Compensation) Act, 1914, which was limited to injuries suffered by person whilst employed afloat by or under the Admiralty or Army Council in connection with war operations in which His Majesty is engaged. It is now intended to continue this for the purpose of continuing these powers during twelve months after the termination of the present War in conditions rendered hazardous by acts done during the War. The other Act referred to in the Resolution is the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act, 1914 (Session 2). That was an. Act limited to disablement suffered by persons whilst employed on shore out of the United Kingdom by or under the Admiralty or Army Council in connection with war operations in which His Majesty is engaged. It is now intended to read the words as if these were added: or during twelve months after the termination of the present War in connection with the-operations of the Armies of Occupation. During the War it was necessary to make provision by these Statutes of 1914 in order to enable compensation to be paid. in hazardous or other occupations in which injuries were suffered, and, inasmuch as-the result of the War still continues, it is necessary that we should still give the opportunity of compensation for injuries suffered by men who are still engaged in hazardous occupations. Let us take one—mine-sweeping. It is by no means certain, that every mine has been swept, and also it is quite fair that, even though the War has terminated, during a period after the termination of the War it is necessary to make some provision for compensation, in case of accidents to brave men engaged in that occupation. Equally in the Armies of Occupation there may be a good deal of work to be done in clearing up a battlefield, in which it becomes necessary to rim a danger in consequence of some dud ammunition, or something of that sort, going off, and it would be very hard indeed to say that an Act which entitled anyone engaged in that occupation during war to compensation should now cease to have effect. I think, therefore, all members of the Committee will agree that it is necessary to continue these powers, and if the powers are to be effective, it is necessary that there should be some money to pay the compensation for any injuries 1083 received. I do not think there can be any doubt in the mind of any member of the Committee as to the purpose of the present Resolution.
I am sorry to say that I am unable to carry out the usual practice of laying a White Paper before the Committee in order to indicate what is the sum which ought to be provided. It is quite obvious there can be no certain data on which one can base what will be the number or the nature of the accidents that may arise in the twelve months after the War. There is no doctrine of averages which would lead us to assume with anything like, I do not say precision, but in any way which would given confidence to anybody as to the amount estimated, and it has been found impossible at the present time to lay a White Paper before the House. But I am informed by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General that the estimate is not exceeding the sum of £2,000. That, I suppose, has been estimated from the accidents which have taken place in the past. I do not know that I can add anything more to give confidence in those data. What we must all hope is that there will be no accidents at all, but what we must provide is that, in case there are accidents, there must be some money to pay compensation. Having explained the purpose of the Resolution, 1 hope the Committee will be ready to give these powers and so make effective the Clauses in the Bill, which certainly ought to be made operative, because of the necessity of providing compensation for injuries suffered by men employed in hazardous occupations.

§ Captain W. BENN
No one would disagree with what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said about the desirability of having money in hand to pay compensation to soldiers and sailors who may be injured in duties really connected with the War, but I should like to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman this question. I see in the Resolution that we are voting money to provide such sums as may be necessary under certain emergency enactments and Regulations. Supposing some charges incurred in making Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act—

§ Sir E. POLLOCK
Perhaps I may explain at once that that is only the Title of the Bill. If you read the Resolution eliminating the title of the Bill there is 1084 no confusion. That is why I venture to put it to the House, so that it would real in this way: That it is expedient to make such provision as may become necessary by reason of the temporary continuance of the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act, 1914, and the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act, 1914 (session 2). The Resolution is closely limited to the operation of those two Acts, and those two only.

§ Captain BENN
Then may I ask how is the money provided for which is needed in connection with Regulations made under the Defence of the Realm Act it not by this Money Resolution now moved?

§ Sir E. POLLOCK
So far as I know there will be none needed. We are Slot taking powers, because there will riot he any necessity to take money in consequence of the continuance of such powers as may be given under the Defence of Realm Act. If they are given under any particular Department they will probably come under the Vote of that Department. This Resolution is absolutely limited to the operation of those two Acts, because from very close and careful scrutiny those are the only two Acts for which it is anticipated any money will be necessary.

§ Captain BENN
Some of us object very much to this War Emergency (Continuance) Bill, and intend to resist it at every stage on various grounds which I cannot enter into now, because it would be out of order. But one of the grounds—by no means the chief—is that it is a waste of money. May I ask at what stage in the progress of this Bill is it in order for us to protest against the War Emergency (Continuance) Bill on the ground of its expense? As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows very well, there is a document setting out the powers which this Bill wilt confer on certain authorities. I presume those powers cannot be exercised without the expenditure of money, and will the hon. and learned Gentleman tell me this Resolution does not confer any power for the expenditure of money in regard to those powers?

§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Gordon Hewart)
Certainly not.

§ Captain BENN
Then what really does?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
That is not before us now.

§ Captain BENN
With great respect, on this point of Order. May I ask the hon. and learned Member this question? What I want to know is whether this Resolution will confer any power of spending money under any measures or regulations other than the two named? Does it confer any other power in connection with the Bill?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
So far as I understand it, I think the matter is made quite clear by the Resolution: it refers only to the measures mentioned there.

§ Mr. A. WILLIAMS
I beg to move, after the word "provision" ["make such provision"], to insert the words "not exceeding two thousand pounds."
In introducing this matter the right hon. Gentleman opposite said he regretted he could not put in a figure as to the amount which we were to authorise. Then he went on to say that it was pretty certain it would not exceed £2,000. Many of us have a very great objection to passing Resolutions here authorising the expenditure of money without some figure being mentioned, and I ask the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General to allow us to pot in a figure. If £2,000 is a safe figure, let us put that in, but in any case let us put in some figure. It is highly contrary to sound finance that this House should authorise the payment of moneys without putting in some sort of a limit.

§ Sit E. POLLOCK
I am perfectly ready to accept that limitation if it is so desired.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
I am obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
Before the Amendment is put from the Chair may I inquire what will happen if this Amendment is passed, and the £2,000, on being expended, is found not to be sufficient?

§ Sir G. HEWART
I presume a Supplementary Estimate will be necessary.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
A Supplementary Estimate will be brought in for any moneys exceeding the £2,000?

§ Sir G. HEWART
Yes.

§ Sir E. POLLOCK
That, of course, is where the difficulty comes in, and was in 1086 the minds of some of us. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has put his finger on the point. We thought a sufficient limitation was put into the Resolution by limiting it to the events that would happen under the two Acts specified. Having specified these, we thought it would be unnecessary to put in any specific limitation of amount. The hon. and gallant Gentleman feels, and rightly, it might be very hard if the total amount of compensation exceeded £2,000, say was £100 more, and we had only the £2,000 to meet it, A Supplementary Estimate would then he necessary.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
My hon. Friends and I are trying gradually, and with great difficulty, to reassert the power of the Sovereign House of Commons over the expenditure of money.

§ Sir E. POLLOCK
Hear, hear.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
That is our object. I am sure we all appreciate what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said about the collection of ammunition, salvage work, and so on in very dangerous areas, but there is also the mine-sweeping services. These are not only being carried out in the North sea. Active mine-sweeping operations are proceeding in the area of warlike operations, as they have been termed. The men to whom I refer are only doing their duty in obeying orders, and if injured in the course of that duty, to whom are they or their relatives to turn for compensation if injuries are received by them? We do not begrudge this money. Obviously it has to be provided, but we want to have some say, and this is the only opportunity we have nowadays of exercising any control over policy—through the purse. The country, I think, expects us to regain our control over it in every way we possibly can. It may be necessary to bring in a Supplementary Estimate. It may take up a few minutes on a Friday afternoon, but it will give us an opportunity of interrogating Ministers, which is one of the opportunities left to us.