HC Deb 31 October 1919 vol 120 cc1087-90

Order for Second Reading read.

Sir G. HEWART

I beg to move "That the County Court Judges (Retirement Pensions and Deputies) Bill be now read a second time."

I can, I think, explain in a sentence or two what are the purposes of this Bill. Under the existing law, that is under the County Courts Acts, 1888, it is provided that the Lord Chancellor may recommend to the Treasury the payment to any County Court judge who may be afflicted with some permanent disability, due possibly to the exertions of his office, and who is deserving of receiving a pension, one not exceeding two-thirds of his salary. That Act charges any pension so granted upon the Consolidated Fund. In practice various difficulties have arisen in the administration of that Act. On the one hand it is felt to be invidious to recommend a less sum than the maximum, and on the other hand the County Court judge is not able to receive a pension unless he satisfactorily establishes that he is suffering from permanent disability. The evidence for that is not always forthcoming. One of the consequences, therefore, is that some County Court judges have continued to perform their duties after it was really desirable that they should do so.

The object of the present Bill is to regularise the whole position. I am sure it is not likely to lead to an expenditure of any larger sum than is now spent. It will be necessary, hereafter, to have a Financial Resolution, but it is not expected that the expenditure taking place under this Bill when it becomes an Act will be greater than the similar expenditure which now takes place under the Acts of 1888. Incidentally, this Bill accomplishes some other purposes. It imposes, as hon. Members will see if they read it, a retiring age of seventy-two, which may be extended to seventy-five if in the particular case the Lord Chancellor thinks fit. Secondly, it grants a pension on a sliding scale with a maximum of two-thirds of the salary, and any County Court judge who has attained the age of sixty-five and served for fifteen years may at any time retire with two-thirds of his salary as pension. On the other hand, if he breaks down in health, and has served fifteen years and attained the age of sixty-five, then he is entitled only to the proportionate pension on the scale set out in the Bill. That is the main proposal of the Bill, but there is a subsidiary proposal which has the object of bringing the law in this country into line with other Acts, and there is provision made for a deputy. The Bill has been agreed between the Lord Chancellor on the one hand and the Treasury on the other and it has received the hearty approval of the County Court judges themselves.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I am sure the House will welcome this Bill, and I think my right hon. Friend has made out a very good case. We are prepared to see that our learned judges who suffer from disabilities and ill-health are not forced by financial reasons to attempt duties for which they are not as well fitted as they ought to be. I would take this opportunity, however, of pointing a moral which I think is not irrelevant to this Bill. You have here the principle laid down that a pension is established at the age of seventy for a County Court judge. If for some reason the learned judge at sixty-five falls into such a state of health that he cannot earn his living he receives two-thirds of his salary as pension. This has been agreed to between the Treasury and the Lord Chancellor and the judges I wish the right hon. Gentleman to convey to the Lord Chancellor that their great influence in Government circles might be used to extend this principle, and if we agree that the public servant who at the age of sixty-five falls into such a state of health that he cannot earn his living, so to speak, may we ask that, the influence of the Attorney-General and the Lord Chancellor should be used to extend that principle to the humbler members of the community outside their own profession, and to persons other than learned County Court judges who are unable to carry on their duties through illness, and who are now going to receive their pension at sixty-five instead of seventy years of age.

Captain W. BENN

Do I understand from the Attorney-General's statement that no additional charge will fall upon the public funds by reason of this Bill, and that it covers the provisions he has referred to dealing with deputies and the pensions at the earlier age, or does it merely apply to the first part?

Sir G. HEWART

As I understand it, the calculation relates to the pensions of Couny Court judges—that is to say, under the new scheme no larger sum per annum will be disbursed than the sum at present being disbursed. The additional element would be whatever sum is requisite for the payment of deputies, but that would be a very small one.

Captain BENN

Will it be explained in the White Paper?

Sir G. HEWART

The whole matter will appear in the White Paper. The sum that will be required will only be that which is actually paid. It is impossible to say at what age a judge may have to retire, and we have to make an approximate calculation, which has been made with the result I have mentioned.

Mr. IRVING

Is there any limit to the number of years? There seems to be no indication of this in the Bill, and it might go on for many years.

Sir G. HEWART

There is no limit in the Bill, bat, of course, if anything of that kind happens it would be quite easy to put an end to it. I will consider whether it is desirable to insert some restriction in the Bill itself.

Mr. IRVING

It is very often done in the case of other bodies.

Sir G. HEWART

I will consider that point.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[Lord E. Talbot.]

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3.

Adjourned at Thirteen minutes after Two o'clock.