HC Deb 19 February 1919 vol 112 cc1074-7

Mr. Speaker or the Chairman may, after the lapse of two minutes, as indicated by the sand- glass, if, in his opinion, the Division is frivolously or vexatiously claimed, take the vote of the House, or Committee, by calling upon the Members who support, and who challenge, his decision, successively to rise in their places; and he shall thereupon, as he thinks fit, either declare the determination of the House or Committee, or name Tellers far a Division. And, in case there is no Division, the Speaker or Chairman shall declare to the House or the Committee the number of the minority who had challenged his decision, and their names shall be thereupon taken down in the House and printed with the lists of Divisions.

Sir G. HEWART

I beg to move to leave out the words as indicated by the sand-glass.

Sir F. BANBURY

This is not a very important Amendment, but I think the House ought to realise what it really is. Under the old Rules, Mr. Speaker or the Chairman of Committees, if he was of opinion that a Division was vexatiously or frivolously claimed might cause hon. Members claiming the Division to rise in their places. This power was very seldom exercised. I remember it being exercised on one occasion when a right hon. Friend of mine came down to the House at three o'clock in the afternoon, to move what, in his eyes, was a very important Amendment. We sat up nearly all night, and his Amendment was not reached until three o'clock in the morning. Then Mr. Speaker told him that he was frivolous in claiming the Amendment, although he had been there from three o'clock in the afternoon, a matter of twelve hours, without being able to move it, and he was made to stand up. That led to a considerable scene. I do not think that Rule has been very often enforced since, but when the Rule was enforced the Clerks at the Table came round and took the names of the Members who had risen in their places, and those names were recorded. This Amendment says that when hon. Members composing the party led by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles, which is not a very numerous party, and which might, late at night, be representing—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The right hon. Baronet is addressing himself to the next Amendment on the Paper, which has not been reached.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg pardon.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "frivolously or vexatiously," and to insert instead thereof the word "unnecessarily."—[Sir G. Hewart.]

Sir F. BANBURY

I do not so much object to this, although the other words are best, but I think my remarks had better be made on the next Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words, And, in case there is no Division, Mr. Speaker or Chairman shall declare to the House or the Committee the number of the minority who had challenged his decision, and their names shall be thereupon taken down in the House, and printed with the lists of Divisions."—[Sir G. Hewart.]

Sir F. BANBURY

Now I will go on with my remarks where I left them off. Where a man claimed a Division, and Mr. Speaker, or the Chairman of Ways and Means, held that it was frivolously or vexatiously claimed, he could order him and his supporters to stand up, and the Clerks at the Table took their names. The effect of the present Amendment being carried will be that their names will not be taken. There are many occasions on which a small minority in this House really thinks it ought to emphasise its action on some particular business or question before the House. It may be unpopular, but they may hold very strong views on it. It may be that their constituents are in agreement with them and they want to see that, at any rate, they have done their best in the House to carry out the views of their constituents. I cannot for the life of me see what is going to be gained by preventing seven or eight Members, who honestly and conscientiously hold that it is their duty to stand up for or against a proposal, from having their names recorded. Therefore, I hope I shall have the support of my right hon. Friend who is leading the Opposition, and I hope also that the Attorney-General will once more agree with my persuasive points.

Sir D. MACLEAN

I very much regret that on this occasion I am not able to agree with the right hon. Baronet, because I have had some personal experience of the real difficulty which lies in the last paragraph of the Order in regard to the conduct of the business of the House. I am quite willing to take the risk, on behalf of those associated with me, of the disadvantages which my right hon. Friend so very kindly referred to. Over and over again, scores of times, in my own personal experience, it would have been for the convenience of the House, and it would have expedited business, if one could have put this Rule in operation as it is now proposed. But the real thing that stopped it almost all the time was the almost impossibility of taking the names of Members standing up. There might be a small group of them in all parts of the House, and it would be very difficult indeed, sometimes in the heat of debate and in the vexation at the very unnecessary way in which progress was being obstructed. I am quite sure it would add to the convenience of the whole of the proceedings of the House, and certainly conduce to the dignity of the proceedings of Parliament in Committee, on Report, and on all other stages if the proposal is allowed to go through.

Amendment agreed to.