§ 17. Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Home Secretary whether it is the practice of the Home Office, upon certain certificates being obtained, to allow experiments on dogs in which the dog is kept alive after the experiment until the main object of the experiment has been attained, although the dog is found to be suffering severe pain, or pain which is likely to endure?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODYes, Sir; experiments are allowed under these conditions on proper certificates as required by the Act, but the further condition is added that if the animal is suffering severe pain which is likely to last, it must at once be painlessly killed, whether the main object of the experiment is attained or not.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERAm I to understand that if an animal is suffering temporarily severe pain, or is suffering considerable pain which is likely to last, it will not be killed unless the object of the experiment is obtained?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODNo, the hon. Baronet is not to understand that; and in reference to supplementary questions I wish he would put them down, as the words which he has used are capable of more than one interpretation.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERWill the hon. Baronet lay on the Table a copy of the licence which is issued in cases where 2192 an operation is performed without anæsthetics or where a dog or another animal is allowed to remain alive after an operation?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODCertainly any Members of the House can have a copy of the licence issued generally if he wishes. With reference to the specific licence, I shall have to consult the Home Secretary.
§ Mr. R. GWYNNEWho is the judge of whether the animal is suffering severe pain which is likely to last?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThere may be several persons to judge, among others an inspector of the Home Office.
§ 18. Sir J. BUTCHERasked the total number of experiments permitted to be made on dogs in 1917 in which the experimenter was permitted to perform the experiment without anæsthetics, and the total number of experiments performed on dogs in 1917 in which the experimenter was permitted to keep the dog alive after it had recovered from the anæsthetic?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODI cannot answer this question as regards dogs alone. The same certificates are required under the Act for cats as for dogs, and, therefore, the Returns do not distinguish them. The number of experiments of the first class mentioned in the question performed in 1917 was 887; the number of the second class was 147. In the majority of these cases cats were the subjects of the experiments.
Lieutenant-Colonel GUINNESSWere not the large proportion of these 887 cases mere inoculations of infection, with no cutting of any kind?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODThat is so.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERWill my hon. Friend direct that in the next Return the figures for dogs and for cats be given separately?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODUnder the present Act I cannot promise that. If my hon. and learned Friend will support the Amendment down in my name to the Bill of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, and it is passed, I think that I can promise him what he desires.
Lieutenant-Colonel GUINNESSCould not a distinction be made between experi- 2193 ments of inoculation with infection and experiments involving cutting which are now all lumped together?
§ Sir H. GREENWOODIf the Amendment standing in my name is accepted, I think I can promise that also.