§ The naval and military authorities shall furnish to the registration officer, for the purpose of the registration of persons as naval or military voters, and their voting as such, such information as may be prescribed after consultation with the Admiralty and Army Council respectively.
§ Mr. GILBERTI beg to move, at the end of Rule 13, to add the words "but nothing in this rule shall relieve the registration officer of his duties with regard to the preparation of a complete list of soldiers and sailors qualified within his registration area."
My object in desiring to add these words to this rule is really to make the registration officer do thoroughly this work of putting the naval and military men on the list. It seems to me that if this rule is left as it is without putting such words in—
§ Colonel SANDERSOn a point of Order[...] Has not this question been already dealt with on a former Amendment?
§ Mr. SPEAKERTo which does the hon. and gallant Gentleman refer?
§ Colonel SANDERSAn Amendment moved last night by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras. These are practically the same words as were part of the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman, who, I think, Will bear out what I say. Certainly they were the same point as was dealt with last night.
§ Mr. GILBERTIf it was defeated last night, there is no good in going on with it to-day.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. GILBERTI beg to move at the end of Rule 13, to add the words, "The particulars to be published in the naval 2284 and military section of the register shall include the name of the soldier or sailor, his rank, number, regiment or ship as the case may be, and his former abode and occupation."
This is an Amendment which we tried to get in on the Committee stage. The object of it is to put down on the register the exact position of the man who is noted there under the special Clauses of the Bill. It will be a check on the man to have his regiment and number; and I think it will also be very helpful if we can get into another column the former abode and occupation of the man—this in view of demobilisation after the War. Such information will probably be of the greatest assistance to the demobilisation department, and, also, possibly, to the Ministry of Reconstruction. Some of us feel very strongly that it will help very considerably to have on the list the regiment, number, and the rank of the man, and then nobody but the man himself will be able to obtain the naval or military franchise. I hope the Ministers in charge will favourably consider this Amendment, and see their way to accept it.
§ Mr. GLYN-JONESI beg to second the Amendment.
No party driving force behind it can possibly prejudice this proposal in its consideration by the House and the Government. On the contrary. But the point, however, I personally myself am keen about is the last part of the Amendment, that as to occupation. I would call the attention of the House to the fact that last night the Government gave an undertaking that there should be a house-to-house canvass for the purposes of this register. One hopes we shall have demobilisation soon. In View of that, I think it would be deplorable if, at the public expense, you are going to call at every house in this country, and ascertain, as you will under this Bill as it stands, the name of the absent soldier or sailor—I do not think I use too strong a word in saying it would be deplorable—and to neglect to instruct the canvasser who makes this canvass to obtain the information which I suggest, and the occupation of that particular soldier or sailor. It is palpable of what enormous use it would be to those likely to be engaged in the process of demobilisation. You will provide in a handy form a local list of all those soldiers and sailors who have left, and you would have then, prepared for you locally, the occupations 2285 of these absent men. I can conceive that such a list as that, prepared without any additional expense except the trouble of printing an extra column for "occupation," will be of enormous value to the local people who deal with demobilisation. They will be able roughly to say that they have got, it may be, 500 soldiers who were carpenters who have come back into the constituency; and so, right away through the various trades. The Government is often accused, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, of working in separate departments, and it is quite conceivable that those who are to prepare this list will look at it purely from the point of view of the voter. I cannot, however, help thinking that the country would deplore the fact that the Government has gone to the trouble, at the public expense, to visit every house, and yet have neglected to instruct the canvassers to get information as to the occupation of each particular soldier or sailor. It may be argued—probably will be—that this will occasion a lot of trouble. It may be that if all these particulars—
§ Mr. HOHLERWhat about changes of occupation?
§ Mr. GLYN-JONESI will deal with that point in a moment. To obtain all these particulars may be considered very troublesome for the canvassers, but the mere "occupation" would not be so. It may be said that that information would not in all cases be absolutely accurate. It will, at any rate, be much more accurate in my view than the information you get as to occupations in the Census papers, where the man himself generally fills up the paper. Instructions will be given to the canvassers as to the lines upon which they make their inquiries as to occupation. I do not quite appreciate the point of the question put to me a few moments ago as to what about changes of occupation?
§ Mr. HOHLERSupposing at the commencement of the War a man lived, say, in Smith Street with his parents. His parents are now dead, and a new tenant has come in, what is the position?
§ Mr. GLYN-JONESIn this register you are going to every house and asking whether a soldier or a sailor who has left that house has gone to the War.
§ Mr. GLYN-JONESOf course I am not asking for that; but anyone who has anything to do with the work of demobilisation would, I think, say that it would be of inestimable value to them to have a list of the soldiers and sailors who have left that district with a list of the occupations engaged in prior to going away. I trust the House would regard this as a practical sort of suggestion.
§ Mr. DICKINSONMy hon. Friend will notice that this Rule contains the words
Much information as may be proscribed after consultation with the Admiralty and Army Council, respectively.That Clause, if properly carried out, would effect the object for which this Amendment has been set down. At the same time I think that both the Home Secretary and the President of the Local Government Board ought to give serious consideration to this particular proposal, which has been put forward for their careful consideration by persons intimately connected with this particular question of registration. In regard to the matter of occupation, may I point out that at the present time the Scottish register always contains that information?
§ Mr. DICKINSONWell, whatever lists I have seen contained it. In my opinion, the Scottish register is very much better than the English one.
§ Mr. DICKINSONOh, doubtless the best; but I have never seen one! The President of the Local Government Board will have the duty cast upon him of making some Regulations in this matter, even if they are not put into the Bill. I am certain the advantage of the course suggested would be real. It would be a very great thing if the right hon. Gentleman can give some assurance that this particular question will be seriously considered. I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman who preceded me that there is a great opportunity that you may never have again of getting information about our soldiers. It is very important, even from the point of view of registration, that we should know exactly where the individual soldiers are who are the absent voters and who have the right to vote. I hope that this will be carried out. If it is it will very greatly improve the English register.
§ Colonel SANDERSI have considerable sympathy with the suggestion put forward, but I think we ought to be careful about throwing more work than is absolutely necessary upon the compilers of the register. It is a great undertaking, at the very least, and it does not seem desirable to ask for more than is absolutely necessary in the way of information. The hon. Gentleman who seconded the Amendment was challenged by being told that the information might not be accurate. He admitted that very likely it would not be. Surely if it is not accurate it is of no use? I would point out that even if accurate at the time it is collected it may not he so afterwards. If we take these things one after another, the name of the soldier and sailor is the only thing that is necessary. He may change his rank, his number, or his regiment. There are very large numbers of soldiers who do not belong to a regiment. The regiment only applies to a few cases. He may change his former abode, and his occupation. On the other hand, his occupation is not so very easy a thing. I quite see the laudable object in view. I think, however, if you insist on occupation being placed in one column you will throw a lot of extra work on those concerned, and also upon those in His Majesty's Forces who have now to send in a pretty large number of returns, and who will not be very pleased if they have to send in another.
Mr. FISHERI can assure my hon. Friends I have given very serious attention to this Amendment, and I can cordially agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn Jones), and others who have spoken, that the information which they are seeking to obtain by this Amendment would be of great advantage to the State at the present time, and of still more advantage to the State when we come to the period of demobilisation. But what I ask the House to remember is that they are now seeking to obtain, not a national register, but a Parliamentary register, and the difficulties already in the way of the officers who have to take what, after all, in the first place must be a house-to-house canvass, will be very great, and they will be greater if you try to impose, in addition to the duties of obtaining many other particulars, which they must obtain in order 2288 to ascertain whether a man is qualified to vote, the duty of finding out what is his occupation, which, after ail, makes no difference whatever so far as his vote is concerned. He may be a carpenter or a costermonger. He is entitled to a vote, not because he is a carpenter or a costermonger, but because of other qualifications. I have had to spend a good deal of time, particularly in the last few days, in trying to see if we could improve our National Register, and I am not altogether indisposed to think that, when the registration officers are empowered to make a house-to-house canvass for the Parliamentary franchise, and when they have an adequate staff with which to make those inquiries, at the same time they might be armed with authority to leave another form at the same houses, by which we seek to improve our National Register, and seek to obtain information which may be of real value to the State as to the occupants of those houses. I am now conferring with other Ministers in other Departments to see what amount, and what kind, of information would really be of value to the State, and whether we could obtain that information by utilising the same staff which we shall very shortly use in respect of the register for the Parliamentary qualification.
§ Mr. DICKINSONThat will not apply to the absent soldiers. You will not get the absent soldiers in a National Register.
Mr. FISHERIt would depend on legislation, and you may have to have legislation in connection with the matter. But let me point out some of the difficulties here. After all, from what sources are we going to get information as to our soldiers and sailors? First, from the canvass conducted by officers; secondly, from statements by soldiers and sailors who desire to give information under Clause 5; and, thirdly—and this will probably be the most reliable source of information—the information we get under Rule 13, which says:
The naval and the military authorities shall furnish to the registration officer, for the purpose of the registration of persons as naval or military voters, and their voting as such, such information as may be prescribed after consultation with the Admiralty and Army Council, respectively.We shall endeavour to get as much information as we possibly can for the purpose of this register under any form 2289 which we may prescribe, but I wish to endorse what has been said by one or two hon. Members that it is exceedingly difficult for the naval and military authorities to find out the occupation of many of these men. Many soldiers enlisted in a place away from their residence, and the Record Office has not the information about them which would indicate the former occupations of those men. So far as I can I shall seek to obtain for the State, by one means or other, the information which undoubtedly will be valuable at the time of demobilisation, and in connection with the great work of reconstruction, but I do not think we can go further than obtain all the information necessary under Rule 13 which may be prescribed after consultation with the Admiralty and Army Council.
§ Mr. GILBERTAfter the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.