- (1) Subject to the provisions of this Act it shall be lawful for His Majesty, by Order signified under the hand of a Secretary of State, to make orders with respect to the government, discipline, pay, allowances, and pensions of the Air Force, and with respect to all other matters and things relating to the Air Force, including any matter by this Act authorised to be prescribed or expressed to be subject to Orders or Regulations.
- (2) The said Orders may provide for the formation of men of the Air Force into, separate units, and for the formation of such units into corps, and for appointing, transferring, or attaching men of the Air Force to units, and for posting, attaching, and otherwise dealing with such men within the units, and may regulate the appointment, rank, duties, and numbers of the officers and non-commissioned officers of the Air Force.
- (3) Subject to the provisions of any such Order, the Air Council hereinafter constituted may make general or special Regulations with respect to any matter with respect to which His Majesty may make Orders under this Section:
- Provided that the administration of Pensions, other than service pensions within the meaning of the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, shall vest in the Minister of Pensions.
- (4) All Orders and General Regulations made under this Section shall be laid before Parliament as soon as may be after they are made.
§ Mr. BILLING:I beg to move a manuscript Amendment, the object of which is to add a new Clause after Clause 1.
§ The CHAIRMAN:We have not got to the new Clauses yet. I will ask the hon. Member to move his first Amendment to Clause 2.
§ Mr. BILLING:I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the word "discipline."
My object is to secure that the disciplinary measures embodied in this Act should be the same as those which obtain in the Army and the Navy. I fail to see why this power should be given to the Secretary of State, or why the discipline of this Force should be dealt with by this Act of Parliament. I would suggest that always in this Bill there is a tendency to vest in the Secretary of State powers which are not usually possessed by Secretaries of State, and to remove wherever possible the control of the House of Commons. I therefore want this word "discipline" struck out.
§ Major BAIRD:I think it is essential to keep the word in. The hon. Gentleman is in error in thinking that this Bill confers greater powers on the Secretary of State than are possessed by other Secretaries of State. The question of discipline in the Air Force has to be provided for in the same way as the King's Regulations provide for it in the Army, and the Regulation will have to be made subject to the provisions of this Act. I think the hon. Member will find it absolutely necessary to keep the word in.
§ Mr. BILLING:With all respect, may I point out that the Clause goes on to say: "With respect to all other matters and things relating to the Air Force, including any matter by this Act authorised to be prescribed or expressed to be subject to orders or regulations." Am I in error in suggesting to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that it would be possible under this Act to alter the discipline of the Force without coming to the House of Commons to alter the Act?
§ Major BAIRD:The discipline will be subject to the King's Regulations, and any alteration must be reported to this House.
§ Mr. BILLING:Would it be impossible to alter the discipline of this Force without altering either this Act or the Army Act? Would it be necessary to come to this House to do that?
§ Major BAIRD:I really think the hon. Gentleman is labouring under a misapprehension. The Army Act is to be adapted to this Bill when it becomes an Act, and nothing can be done contrary to this Bill. If the Air Force Bill is passed it cannot be altered without the consent of Parliament, therefore, I think the non-Member's point is met entirely.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Mr. BILLING:In view of the reply given by the hon. and gallant Gentleman to my last Amendment, I do not propose to move the next Amendment, to leave out the words, "and with respect to all other matters and things relating to the Air Force, including any matter by this Act authorised to be prescribed or expressed to be subject to orders or regulations."
§ Colonel GRETTON:I beg to move, in the same Sub-section, to leave out the words, "including any matter."
I want to make it quite clear that the Secretary of State shall not make orders which are not authorised by this Bill. The words I propose to omit are rather extraordinary, and if they are left out the Subsection will read as follows:
Subject to the provisions of this Act it shall be lawful for His Majesty by orders signified under the hand of a Secretary of State to make Orders with respect to the Government, discipline, pay, allowances and pensions of the Air Force, and with respect to all other matters and things relating to the Air Force by this Act authorised to be prescribed or expressed to be subject to orders or regulations.Clearly it would not be wise, nor could, it be intended by the framers of this Bill, unless they are trying to deceive the House, that the Secretary of State, by the formality of an Order in Council, shall make orders on any matter at his own sweet will. Is it not clear there is here an extension of powers which was not contemplated?
§ Major BAIRD:My reply to this Amendment is similar to that which I gave to the last. Everything has to be provided for in both directions. It is necessary to be quite certain that Regulations shall, not be made that do not fall within the four corners of the Air Force Act, and at the same time the Secretary of State ought not to be hampered with regard to the regulations he may make under the 439 Act. I am afraid the result of the omission of these words would hamper him in this direction. It is absolutely necessary he should have a free hand, but Parliament will still retain complete control by being called upon to sanction the Air Force Act every year.
§ Colonel GRETTON:This is news indeed. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has just told us that the Bill is to come up annually for renewal. Does he really mean that? I take it that this is a Bill establishing a Ministry which, like all other Bills establishing new Ministries during the War, becomes an Act of Parliament once it has gone out of the hands of this House, and we shall have no further control over it unless there be a necessity to amend it. What many hon. Members will object to on reflection is that the new Secretary of State should not be hampered. We think he ought to be hampered. He should be kept within the four corners of the law, and only do those things which the House prescribes, and no other things. It is an entirely new doctrine that a Secretary of State should be set up to do whatever he pleases without limitation, while he is to be allowed most graciously to do those things which the Act prescribes. Surely there is something very wrong about this matter. The reply of the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill has only confirmed me in my uneasiness as to the possibility of this new Secretary of State having a roving commission and not being hampered in any way.
§ Major BAIRD:I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend can have noticed Subsection (2) of Clause 12, which provides that the Air Force Act shall continue in force only as long as the Army Act continues in force. Provision is made for amending the Air Force Act automatically with the Army Act, so that there is no question about the Secretary of State having a roving commission. He is confined by the very terms of the Clause under discussion to action by this Act authorised. I think that is quite clear.
§ Sir I. PHILIPPS:I think the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill is rather confusing us with his Air Force Act and his Air Force Bill. The two separate Bills with similar names give rise to complication, and I do not think they show very great intelligence on the part of the gentleman who drafted the Bills. It has 440 always been said in the Army that it is very difficult for a young soldier to acquire a knowledge of military law, as the lawyers do their level best to make it as difficult as possible for them. When we are faced with two Bills like these and call one an Act and the other a Bill, it is liable to lead to confusion. I think the hon. Gentleman might consider whether he cannot invent different names for the two articles which he is presenting to us.
§ Colonel GRETTON:I am thankful to the hon. Gentleman in charge of the [...] for his explanation. I am aware that the Discipline Act has to be passed every year, but what we are now discussing is not the Discipline Act or alterations which the Schedule of this Bill is going to introduce, but we are discussing the powers of the Ministry, and I think I am right in saying that the Bill which sets up the Ministry gives it powers which will not have to be renewed year by year, and when once Parliament has disposed of the Bill it will cease to have control over it.
§ Mr. BILLING:Perhaps the Attorney-General will tell us whether the Bill gives the Secretary of State any powers which other Secretaries of State do not possess?
§ Sir F. SMITH:I do not think it gives any powers which other Secretaries of State do not possess, and consequently in my opinion the fear expressed by my hon. and gallant Friend is quite unfounded. It is obvious that any Bill of this kind, by reason of its very nature, has to make provision that certain matters shall be dealt with by Orders or by Regulations, and this Bill simply contains provisions to that effect. There is nothing unusual in giving these powers to the Secretary of State. It was done in the Territorial Reserve Forces Act of 1906, the Reserve Forces Act of 1882, and the Militia Act of 1866. These all gave very wide powers to the Secretary of State for the time being.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ 5.0 P.M.
§ Mr. BILLING:I beg to move, in Subsection (4), after the word "Parliament" ["laid before Parliament"], to insert the words "for confirmation."
I do this because I think hon. Members will agree that if this is to be brought before Parliament it should be brought before Parliament for confirmation, as distinct from what has been the custom in many 441 recent acts of the Government, namely, to perform the act, and then to come and say they have done it, instead of first coming to the House and asking permission to do it. This may be necessary in some matters affecting war strategy. If the House is to be consulted at all, I suggest it should be consulted before, and not after, the act has been performed.
§ Major BAIRD:If this Amendment were accepted, the effect would be to make it necessary to pass an Act of Parliament whenever alterations were made in the King's Regulations. That is a matter of daily occurrence, and it would be absolutely out of the question to attempt to carry it out. The hon. Gentleman will see that all these Orders and Regulations are made subject to this Section, and I do not think he will find it necessary to proceed in the way he proposes, which would entail legislation on every occasion on which the King's Regulations were altered, which would be perfectly impossible in practice.
§ Mr. BILLING:Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman say what the inference is from the words that "they shall be laid before Parliament"? Surely if Parliament has no power in the matter we might as well, in view of the great shortage of paper, have saved those three words?
§ Sir I. PHILIPPS:Surely the object of laying them before Parliament is that Parliament may approve or disapprove of the action taken. Any Member can rise and object, and move a Resolution against the Government. I hope this will be left alone. I think the hon. Member (Mr. Billing) is anxious to improve the Bill, but that he is not aware of the way in which the Army is governed through the King's Regulations. Orders and Amendments are almost continuously being issued, and if we had to come to this House regarding each it would be quite impossible to carry on. It would not be to the advantage of the airmen, officers or men, that these delays should take place. Some injustice would be incurring, and the Air Council would be ready, and would have the power, to remove the grievance at once, if the Bill remains as it is. But if it were altered as the hon. Member desires, they would have to come and get an Act of Parliament. It could not be worked, and I am sure the hon. Member does not appreciate what is the meaning of his Amendment
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.