HC Deb 06 May 1915 vol 71 cc1268-70
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether His Majesty's Government have refused permission to the county council to defer for the period of the War the new building scheme required for the reduction of the numbers in the classes. Whether this scheme involves the raising of a large loan; whether the Treasury have given their assent to this loan, and whether the proposal was submitted to the Treasury Committee on New Issues; and, if so, whether that Committee expressed any opinion upon it?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

As regards the first and third parts of the question, the London County Council have been informed that in all the circumstances His Majesty's Government cannot ask the Council to postpone the work. I understand that the scheme will not involve borrowing in the open market, but will be financed out of the Consolidated Loans Fund of the council. As no loan was required to be raised, the question did not come formally before the Committee.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I attach so much importance to this subject that I give notice that I shall call attention to the matter at the earliest possible moment. It is essentially a Treasury matter and I hope the Prime Minister will allow us to raise it on the Vote for the Treasury, not as an education question, but as a Treasury question. In the meantime, I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will lay upon the Table all correspondence which has passed upon the subject, whether between the Department and the county council or the Department and the Treasury?

Mr. RAWLINSON

Is it not the fact that any dealings with the sinking fund of the county council have to be dealt with in the London County Council Money Bill and require the sanction of the House?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

That I could not answer without notice I understand from the President of the Local Government Board that a discussion can take place on the Estimates next Thursday.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

On what Estimate?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

The Board of Education Estimate.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I am not concerned with this as an education question. What I am concerned with is the difference of policy enforced by His Majesty's Government with the London County Council compared with that recommended to the country only the other day in his Budget speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This difference between the Departments can only be decided by the head of the Government, and I ask that we may discuss it on a Treasury Vote?

Sir H. CRAIK

Is it not the case that a circular has been addressed to school boards and other education authorities, both on the English and Scottish Boards of Education, refusing grants by the Public Works Loans Commissioners during the period of the War, and deprecating the raising of any loans in the open market?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

Certainly. I think that was done at the instance of the Treasury. I pressed that policy very hard upon all the authorities very early in the course of the War. The only exception which I contemplated as Chancellor of the Exchequer was in cases where there was a prospect of there being lack of employment in a particular district, and where works would be necessary. At that time it was feared that there would be certain districts hit very hard by the War. Since then that apprehension has not been realised, and there is no case for the exception which one contemplated at that time.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

May I press for an answer to my two questions. In the first place, will the correspondence be laid on the Table? Secondly, shall we have an opportunity of discussing this difference of policy between different Departments of the Government on the one central Vote which enables us really to raise it in that form?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

As to laying the correspondence, I would not like to give an answer in the affirmative. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, if you always tabled correspondence between Departments, there would be no correspondence. I do not think it would be desirable that we should make a precedent of that kind. It would make it impossible to conduct negotiations between Departments.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

May we have the correspondence between the Departments and the county council?

Sir F. BANBURY

It is important that this matter should be cleared up. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Treasury Committee have expressed an opinion upon this point?

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE

The hon. Baronet is a Member of that Committee. I hope the proceedings of the Committee are not to be discussed in public, therefore I do not think it is desirable, if I may say so, for a Member of the Committee to indicate what happens in the Committee. I think that would be a very undesirable practice to adopt. I do not think that they formally passed a resolution, but I will have a conversation with Lord St. Aldwyn on the subject.