HC Deb 06 May 1915 vol 71 cc1320-6

(1) Sub-section (2) of Section two of the Police Constables (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1914, shall have effect as if the words "for rendering special service in the Navy or Army" were omitted therefrom.

(2) The Sub-section which, by Section one of the Police Constables (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1914, is substituted for Sub-section (2) of Section one of the Police Reservists (Allowances) Act, 1914, and Sub-section (2) of Section one of the Irish Police (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1915, shall respectively have effect as if the following provision were added thereto:—

"If the man dies or is disabled whilst in naval or military service under circumstances which do not entitle his widow or children or him to any pension or allowances payable out of naval or military funds, the police authority shall have power to grant to his widow and children or to him such gratuities or pension as could have been awarded under the enactments relating to the police, had the man been a member of the police force at the time of his death or disablement."

(3) For removing doubts it is hereby declared that the privileges to which a man may be entitled under the Police Reservists (Allowances) Act, 1914, or the Police Constables (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1914, or the Irish Police (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1915, shall continue, and may be renewed, notwithstanding that the man is granted a temporary commission for the purposes of the present war in any of His Majesty's naval or military forces.

(4) This Section shall as respects England and Scotland be construed as one with the Police Reservists (Allowances) Act, 1914, and the Police Constables (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1914, and as respects Ireland with the Irish Police (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1915.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

I should like to refer to Sub-section (2) of Clause 1. My attention has been called to it because the local authorities who have charge of the police are under the impression that by this Clause a new charge will be put upon the local authorities. I refer to Sub-section (2) which says: If the man dies or is disabled whilst in naval or military service under circumstances which do not entitle his widow or children or him to any pension—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Is the hon. Member proposing to move an Amendment?

Mr. J. SAMUEL

No, I am asking for an explanation.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

There is an Amendment on the Paper.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna)

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "effect" ["shall have effect as if the words"], to insert the words "and shall be deemed always to have had effect."

This Amendment is to clear away a doubt expressed by an hon. Member on the Second Reading of the Bill as to whether it was retrospective. These words make the effect of the Bill retrospective, and carry out the wishes of the House expressed on. Second Reading.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, agreed to.

Mr. TOUCHE

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after "words" ["as if the words"], to insert the words "if the police authority are satisfied, after consultation with the Admiralty or Army Council, that the constable possesses qualifications not possessed by ordinary recruits."

This Clause modifies the Police Constables (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1914, which again modifies the Police Reservists (Allowances) Act, 1914. In the Police Constables (Naval and Military (Service) Act, 1914, the privileges of the Police Reservists (Allowances) Act, 1914, were extended to any constable who enlisted, subject to his possessing qualifications not possessed by any ordinary recruit for rendering special service to the Navy or Army. In other words, the Reservist who has been drawing Reserve pay during time of peace, and is under an obligation to join the Forces, gets a protection, while a man who volunteered for the same War service, and received no financial consideration during time of peace, receives no protection unless he has special qualifications. I understood, when this Bill was first introduced, that that benefit henceforth was to apply to all. I do not know whether I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman on that occasion. The new Bill omits the restriction of the benefit to men capable of rendering special service, but it retains the restriction to constables with qualifications not possessed by ordinary recruits. The object of my Amendment is to put every constable who enlists on the same footing, always provided, of course, that he does so with the approval of his chief officer. I am afraid if it is left as it is the constable would have to resign and thus lose the benefit of his previous service. I hope I have made myself quite clear to the right hon. Gentleman, and I trust he will accept my Amendment.

Sir F. BANBURY

May I ask whether the words proposed by my hon. Friend are in the proper place, because I think they are in the wrong place. I do not think they would make sense of the Clause.

Mr. McKENNA

I think the Amendment is quite right as it stands. I entirely agree with the argument put forward by the hon. Member, but to give effect to his argument I think we ought to add the words "with the consent of the chief officer of police."

Mr. LYNCH

I had an Amendment prepared, but I prefer the Amendment suggested by the right hon. Gentleman him- self. I think he has the desire of carrying out the intention of the Amendment which I have prepared. I support the contention of the hon. Member who has just sat down. I want to secure that the police officer who is now a police officer and who joins either the Army or the Navy shall be practically in the same position as if he had previously been a Reservist, either of the Army or of the Navy, and had been called up by the Army or Navy authorities.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Mr. McKENNA

I beg to move, after the words last added, to insert the words "with the consent of the chief officer of police."

Proposed words inserted.

Mr. McKENNA

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "effect," to insert the words "and shall be deemed always to have had effect." These words are inserted in order to make the Bill retrospective.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Mr. McKENNA

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (4), to insert (5) This Section shall continue in operation only during the continuance of the present War. This Amendment is proposed in order to meet an objection which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth), and I hope it will meet his view.

Mr. BOOTH

I thank the Government for putting in this Section. On a previous occasion I appealed for some definite words. Probably these words do not alter the meaning of the Bill, but they make the point clear, and I am anxious that all these matters should be made plain to the lay reader.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

I would like to know what will be the effect of this Amendment. Suppose a pension is granted by the local authorities, will that cease at the end of the War?

Mr. McKENNA

We are dealing now with allowances during the War. Pensions will not and could not cease. The object of this Bill is to enable certain allowances to be paid during the War to the constable if he enlists, and the whole effect of this Clause ceases at the end of the War. If the constable dies in the service of the Crown he will receive his pension.

Lord C. BERESFORD

Supposing a constable elects to continue his service under this arrangement after the War he will get an extra pension and his original pension, and his original pension is increased.

Mr. McKENNA

The Noble Lord is perfectly right. If the constable serves after the expiration of his ordinary service and goes on serving for another year he will be entitled to a pension at an additional year's rate. He will get that under the existing law.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. J. SAMUEL

My attention has been called by the local authorities to the new charge which is going to be placed upon them under this Bill. Under Sub-section (2) it is provided that:— If a man dies or is disabled whilst in naval or military service under circumstances which do not entitle his widow or children or him to any pension or allowances payable out of naval or military funds, the police authority shall have power to grant to his widow and children or to him such gratuities or pension as could have been awarded under the enactments relating to the police, had the man been a member of the police force at the time of his death or disablement. What the authorities contend is that this is a new charge, and they say that if a policeman volunteers or if he joins the Colours, or if he becomes a Reserve man and joins the Colours, he is entitled to a pension out of the naval or military funds, and the local authority can pay his widow or children a pension, or in case of injury they can pay him a gratuity. This is really a war charge upon the local authorities, because we hold that if a man, under these circumstances, is killed in the War, or injured, the National Exchequer, through the Army or the Navy, should meet the pension and the gratuity. Now you are saying in so many words that there is no such provision. I will assume that this Clause states that there is no provision to grant a gratuity or a pension under certain circumstances to the police officer who joins the Army or the Navy and is injured or disabled or killed, and the right hon. Gentleman says the local authority must undertake, or can under- take, that charge. I say distinctly that that is a new responsibility upon the local authorities. It may become a very serious one, and some of these authorities are rather alarmed at the prospect of these new charges upon them. I hold that if a man joins the forces, whether a police constable or not, if he is killed then the pension should come from the State to his widow and children. If he is injured then we hold that the gratuities should come from the State and not from the local authority. I feel certain that the local authorities, with rates up to 8s., 9s., and even 10s. in the pound, have a quite sufficient burden to bear at the present time. On this point I should like a clear opinion from the Home Secretary.

Mr. McKENNA

I am not sure that my hon. Friend realises the exact purpose of this Bill. This is a measure which has been introduced in response to a request made to the Home Office by certain police authorities, who have asked for additional powers to those which they now possess for dealing generously with police officers who enlist.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

Is that so?

Mr. McKENNA

Yes. This is an enabling power and not a compulsory power, and if the police authority holds the view expressed by my hon. Friend that this is a charge which they do not feel justified in imposing upon the ratepayers the effect will be that at least one of their servants who enlisted would not get the additional pay.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain in that case what will become of the man if he is not entitled to draw a pension?

Mr. McKENNA

I was just coming to that point. The reason for this particular Sub-section is this: The rules governing the right to pensions are not precisely the same in the military force and in the police force. Of course, in such a case as my hon. Friend mentioned, the case of a police officer who had enlisted and was killed or wounded there would be a naval or military pension; there would not be any burden upon the police authority in regard to pension. But in determining rights to pensions police authorities are a little more generous than the naval and military authorities. There are cases, for instance, in which the naval or military authority might hold that disease or incapacity, which might affect a soldier or sailor, was not pensionable, whereas in similar circumstances the police authority would hold that it was pensionable, or that it would entitle the sufferer to a gratuity. It is in order that a local authority should be able, if it so wished, to pay a pension or a gratuity to a police officer in those special circumstances, which must be rare, of course, that this power is given to them. No police authority need exercise the power, nor would it ever come into operation in any ordinary case of death or wounds.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.