ROYAL ASSENT. (Hansard, 24 June 1915)

HC Deb 24 June 1915 vol 72 cc1380-412 1380

§ Whereupon the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, having come with a Message to attend the Lords Commissioners, the Chairman left the Chair.

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§ Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.

§ Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

§ The House went, and, having returned,

§ Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:—

§ SUPPLY again considered in Committee.

§ Question again proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £234,791, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916, for the salaries and expenses of the Local Government Board."

§ Mr. CROOKS (resuming)
I am told that I left off at an extremely awkward point. What I wanted to say was that these children were considered to be unworthy of notice. We hear a lot about education. One often hears a man say, "What's the good of education? I have done very well without it." That always brings to my lips the reply, "Honesty is the best policy, but some people have done very well without it." You have to take the best of the different systems for the treatment of children and pick out the satisfactory elements. It is a remarkable thing, and I 1382 am proud of it, that a Poor Law boy has won the Victoria Cross, and another in the East of London has got the Distinguished Conduct Medal. In the girls' department you have similar results. As we have heard from the right hon. Gentleman the President, pauperism has gone down, and that is because of the self-reliance of the enormous number of children for whose training the Local Government Board have been responsible. I might also refer to the training of mentally deficient children. The setting up of institutions to treat them outside the workhouse is all to the good. I could give half-a-dozen instances of the beneficial results of this training. I am never tired of giving examples of Poor Law children who have excelled.
When some of us were going round the world I met a girl on the other side of the globe. She said to me, "You did not think you would see me here when you gave me my prize." I asked, "Where was that?" She told me that I gave her a prize at the Poplar Training School. I asked her what she was doing. She said she was a lady's help. I said, "I really have not time to speak to you now, but if you will come and see me in the morning I shall be glad. Will your mistress allow you to come?" She replied, "If she does not allow me to come, I will get another place." Who said that there was no self-reliance in these children? One girl in a mentally deficient home, who was looked upon as silly and foolish, went straight away and became cook of the institution in which she had been. Another case is that of a silly, stupid boy who was trained in one of these homes and is now a petty officer in the Navy. I could multiply instances showing the advantages of the better system and the better opportunity given to these children. I think we ought to notice the good work of the institutions as well as all the carping criticism that we hear. I have done as much as anybody else in that way, and I hope it has done some good. I think it has. People have sometimes hastened to do good for fear I should brag that I had made them do it. Personally, I do not care who does the job so long as it is done.
A plea has been put in with regard to vaccination officers' fees. I wish the Department would issue an order enabling guardians to pay these men by salary and not by fees at all. It would be much better and fairer. Questions have been asked in regard to old age pensions. The 1383 late Chancellor of the Exchequer promised me months ago that he would consider the point which I then raised and which I wish to bring forward again. It may be perfectly true that the increased income here and there from allotments by sons has caused the pension officer to recommend a reduction of the pension. But I want the Committee to remember that that is only a reduction on the 13s. limit. The people for whom I am pleading are those on the 5s. limit. The heroism of these men and women in making efforts to remain outside the Poor Law and to keep their little homes together is wonderful, and they are now, in the midst of a War for which they certainly are not responsible, and in which they can take no part, trying to eke out a miserable existence on 5s. a week. It is starvation. You cannot argue the matter. For an old man or woman to live on 5s. a week is next to an impossibility. They simply linger on and then die of starvation. But the courage is there all the time in their endeavour to keep free from the stigma of pauperism.
What can be done? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will talk over with his officials the possibility of helping old age pensioners during the War by not being too particular in the definition of medical comforts. Old age pensioners are allowed to get medical relief without becoming disqualified for their pensions. The Board can do it if they like. I hope they will issue a circular to the guardians saying that where they think it desirable in the case of old age pensioners unable to maintain themselves, I will not say in decency, but unable to procure sufficient food, they may include within the purview of medical assistance bread and meat, or something of that kind, to the extent of 2s. or 2s. 6d. a week. That would make all the difference between life and death to many of these old people. I know an old man who gets 5s. a week and has not a friend in the world. He pays 1s. 9d. in rent and has to feed and cloth himself on what is left. The Committee can readily see that he cannot go on living very long. He just picks up an extra shilling here and there. Who can refrain from giving such a man a shilling? He has all the bravery and courage of our race. He is starving for his independence.
Surely these are the people who have a claim upon us! After all, these old veterans built up the commercial supremacy of Great Britain, and we have no 1384 right to desert them, especially in days like the present. These are the patriots who have made our liberty worth having. Medical comforts cover a variety of things. I have shoals of letters from these men and women saying, "You are thinking of this man and that man. Is not the industrial veteran worth thinking about?" To that I reply that we are always thinking about him, but we never do anything for him. This is our annual chance. I should have said the same to any other President. I do not know any board of guardians in the Kingdom now, whatever may have been the case twenty years ago, who would not be willing to make such an allowance as I have suggested, if they had an assurance from the Local Government Board that they would not be surcharged for it. The auditor is a pretty strict person. You are bound down considerably by certain rules. I once had to pay a surcharge. The master of the poor-house with which I was connected put currants in the bread of the old people to save butter. The Department said that it was a shame, and made us pay back the money. But you do not do that nowadays. I hope I have said enough to induce the right hon. Gentleman to issue such an Order as I have suggested.

Sir G. BARING
No one speaks with more authority on a subject of, the kind we are discussing to-day than the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Crooks). Years ago he was a pioneer in the East End of London of humane workhouse treatment. The difference in the way that workhouses are conducted to-day as compared with twenty years ago is very remarkable. I have served on boards of guardians for many years. Twenty years ago there were workhouses which were not only as bad as prisons, but infinitely worse. All that has been swept away, not only by the activity of the Local Government Board, but also by the work of boards of guardians themselves. That is why I was rather sorry to hear an hon. Member say that some members of boards of guardians were ignorant and stupid. That could be said of any public body. It might even in the past have been said of this august Assembly. Of course it could not be correctly said of it now. The board of guardians on which I had the honour of serving was not an ignorant or stupid board; it was a very intelligent and well-conducted board.
I should like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman who has assumed the office of President of the Local Government 1385 Board on his return to that great Department. These are difficult times for every Department, and not least for the Local Government Board, and I think the country may be congratulated that the affairs of that Department are once more in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman, who is peculiarly able to direct them in these difficult times. We are glad also that he is to be assisted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher), who before assuming office was engaged in the work of the London County Council. I am sure that under the supervision of these two right hon. Gentlemen we shall get through the present critical period. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) paid a well-deserved eulogy to the work done by the officials of his Department. The time has long gone by when it was supposed to be necessary that there should be hostility between the Local Government Board and the public bodies of the country. I have had twenty years' experience of local government, and I have always found the officials of the Local Government Board exceedingly anxious to help the work of those public bodies by every means in their power. I am sure that the present officials can be trusted to help us with the difficult problems with which public bodies are at present faced.
One problem with which local authorities were confronted at the commencement of the War was that of providing suitable and sanitary camps for troops in different parts of the country. I think the health record was extraordinarily satisfactory, and that was due to the energy with which the surveyors of the various bodies assisted the military authorities in seeing that the water supply and sanitation were everything they should be. I wish to say one word with regard to the administration of the Prince of Wales' Fund. I understand that it would not be in order to go into the actual allocation of money under the fund. I hope the right hon. Gentleman did not think me discourteous in raising a point of Order when he was speaking.

§ Mr. LONG
Not at all.

Sir G. BARING
I was only anxious to know how far we should be allowed to go. The only remark I will make is, that I wish those who control the fund had not been quite so parsimonious in their grants to the various local committees. I hope they will recognise that
1386 6.0 P.M.
these committees consist of extremely experienced men and women, with full local knowledge, and of sure local position. I hope they will be inclined to trust them a little more than they do at present. Wisdom does not reside only in Downing Street. It is sometimes to be found on our local bodies. I hope also that the much appreciated visits of Local Government Board inspectors to the various Poor Relief committees will be continued. These committees have to deal with very difficult matters and in many cases they have derived the greatest possible assistance from the visits of the inspectors. With regard to economy, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the greatest possible economy is now being practised by almost every public body in the country. In connection with the county council of which I have the honour to be chairman, we have carefully scrutinised and revised every item of our expenditure. Only the other day, to the great anger of motor-car owners, we reduced our expenditure on roads by £2,000. The Isle of Wight is, of course, a very small county. That shows that we are making every effort to economise and to carry out the recommendations of the Local Government Board. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to issue another circular—circulars are not unfamiliar to the Local Government Board—once more drawing attention to the extreme urgency for the need of economy. It would help the party of economy on various councils. The way of the economist is always rather hard. It is hard here, and it is doubly hard on the local bodies. I know of nothing more unpopular, whether it be in the House of Commons or upon a local body, than to advocate economy. But if economists can point to advice issued by the Local Government Board, I think it would be a real service at the present time. I should like to make one reference to the recommendations which are sometimes made to boards of guardians by Local Government Board inspectors. As I have said, these are an admirable body of men; extremely able, and extremely courteous, but they sometimes recommend things which, though not intended, cost a great deal of money. I hope the Local Government Board will suggest a close time for fads, because they always end in a rise in the local rates. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton alluded to the way in 1387 which the North Riding County Council would be able to get round the regulations of the Local Government Board. I was rather shocked to hear that suggestion. I should like to say that in the Isle of Wight County Council we have never infringed any of the regulations made, in their wisdom, by the Local Government Board inspectors.
I should like to conclude by drawing the right hon. Gentleman's attention to a question which, I think, is very likely to be a very urgent one in the future. We all know, unfortunately, that week by week and month after month large numbers of men are coming back from the War permanently incapacitated from serving in the Army, and also for all except the very lightest possible employment. I am told on good authority, a few months ago, that the number of men permanently incapacitated in that way amounted to over 2,000. By the end of the War, which we are afraid may be long, that number will be enormously increased. I hope the Local Government Board will consider carefully whether they can in any way assist these men to obtain employment. Perhaps more men might be employed by the various great Departments of the State in light work which can be easily performed. Unless a scheme is carefully devised and carefully administered, we shall be confronted at the end of the War, if unfortunately it goes on for a long time, with an almost unsurmountable problem. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider whether something cannot be done to prevent what in the past has been a scandal—that is to say, men who have served their country and given of their best, who perhaps have been a little improvident, reduced to begging their bread or going to the workhouse. We must see that after this War that dreadful state of things no longer exists. I hope we shall hear from the right hon. Gentleman that he has that problem in view and will be able to deal with it.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I should like to add one word in the support of the case brought forward by my hon. Friend. I do not personally know anything about it, except what I saw in one of the newspapers and from what my hon. Friend has said. He has made out a case for some alteration in the customs of the observation room in the different workhouses. I do not want to go into the question as to 1388 whether the police or the workhouse authority was bound to receive the lady in question. Of course they were bound to receive her. There can be no question about that, but were they bound, when they had got her, to take off her clothes and wash her? We hear about economy. Soap and water costs something. Was it absolutely necessary in the case of this lady to wash her, seeing she was clean? There seems to be no reason why she should have been washed and her hair taken down and the ordinary workhouse clothes put upon her. The hon. Gentleman opposite has given a reason. There is, he said, a regulation that everybody who goes in has to be stripped and given a bath. But such a regulation ought to be carried out with discretion. Unnecessary observation of rules of this sort is absolutely absurd and takes up the time of the officials. If I were, to be taken by the police and sent in to an observation, ward, should I be immediately stripped, and bathed, and have my hair brushed? I hope that my two right hon. Friends—one shakes his head, and the other is taking no notice—I do not know whether that means divided opinion—but I do hope they will point out to the persons in authority that they should use a little discretion, though if a very dirty person comes in it is quite right that he or she should be washed.
I heartily agree with the proposals of economy to which the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway has alluded. I am sorry that he thinks it unpopular to advocate economy. I have been a supporter of economy ever since I had the honour of a seat in this House. It does not matter to me whether it is popular or unpopular. I have done what I thought to be right, and I hope my hon. Friend will do so. It is news to me to learn that local authorities have suddenly become economical. It must have been since the day before yesterday—no, yesterday!—for they have been by no means inclined to economy. It may be that the hon. Baronet's council is the only one; if so, I trust it will set an example to other local authorities.

§ Sir ALBERT SPICER
I want to emphasise two points which already have been referred to. Before doing so, may I say how extremely pleased I was to hear the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board refer in such appreciative terms to the work of boards of guardians. The longer I am in contact I with boards of guardians the more I feel 1389 that they never have had proper respect paid to them. They are doing extremely useful work, a work which, if it were more widely known, and they themselves were more widely known as guardians, would lead to a prevention of waste and overlapping in a great deal of the work that is being regularly undertaken by philanthropic and religious bodies. It is a strange thing that I have never been able to find a directory of guardians. I can find the names and addresses of every other local authority and public authority; I have never succeeded in finding a directory of boards of guardians. The consequence is, that when I have wanted to find out who were the guardians in any particular district, I have had to go to the clerk of the guardians and trust to his courtesy to give me the list I required. I have been amazed in how many districts where one discussed different questions with residents in the districts to find that though they knew who were the Members of Parliament, who their members of the borough or the municipal council were, they had not the least idea who were the members of the board of guardians. I believe the absence of that knowledge leads to a great deal of waste of power and overlapping in work, because when people make application for work to one, and are asked what is the view of their local authority, their guardians or municipal authority, as a rule I find that so far as the guardians are concerned no notice whatever has been taken of them.
As to the two points I just want to emphasise: I do not put forward my remarks as criticisms; they are merely suggestions, because I know perfectly well that the President of the Local Government Board has a good deal of sympathy in this direction. The plan of rearing children in large institutions is no longer regarded with favour by educationists, or by the medical profession. There is a growing, thoughful public opinion in favour of individual methods by which dependent children can be dealt with in small groups. Many boards of guardians who have desired to go in this direction, have been hindered, because having institutions which have been built and paid for by the public money, they did not know what use to make of these buildings if they adopted newer and more progressive measures. Now that the military authorities are in such need of accommodation, it would seem a unique opportunity 1390 of utilising some of these "barrack" buildings for more appropriate uses. The Brentford Board of Guardians are arranging for the upbringing of their children in scattered homes, a system which is growing in favour with the pubilc. It is certainly most economical, when it is kept within proper dimensions, to have ten or twelve children with a suitable foster mother as supervisor. This is the next best plan to boarding-out in proper genuine homes, and the nearest approach to bringing up children in the most natural conditions. I know that these arrangements will require a great deal of consideration, but it seems to me a time when a great deal might be done in this direction. I hope the President will facilitate any transference of school buildings in this direction.
The other point is the possible danger of overcrowding. Owing to the dilatoriness of some boards of guardians in removing their children from the workhouse before the Treasury thought it expedient—and only right—to restrict the granting of loans for building purposes the children are being sent to children's institutions of other unions, which unions, of course, gladly receive them, because it naturally reduces the cost per head of maintenance and establishment charges. There will be great need of strict supervision if there is not to be overcrowding in these institutions. A word of warning may be given by the inspectors in this direction, because such overcrowding, we know perfectly well, inevitably leads to outbreaks of epidemic diseases. I ask the President's kind consideration of these two points.

§ Mr. JAMES MASON
The President of the Local Government Board, at the conclusion of his very satisfactory and interesting speech, referred to the satisfactory position in which this country stands in respect to the figures which deal with pauperism, unemployment, and so forth. We all feel highly satisfied that these figures are as they are. But I am also sure that the Department cannot fail to realise that the satisfactory figures of unemployment certainly are very largely due to the artificial stimulus in employment caused by the War, and that though we may have a considerable amount of employment, directly and indirectly, connected with the War, the Local Government Board will have to prepare for a very careful review and stringent administration when the War comes to an end. I cannot help feeling that a great deal of 1391 difficulty will arise, not only when we have the cessation of the necessity for making munitions for war, but when we are gradually disbanding the men who are employed in the Army, and the other industries which are more or less connected with that special position. That leads me to think that very great care should be exercised in the administration of any such funds as that to which allusion has already been made, and which is commonly known as the Prince of Wales' Fund".
The right hon. Gentleman, in the early part of his remarks, referred, in a manner which was to me highly satisfactory, to the very strong action that he intends to take as regards forcing economy upon local authorities. I am sure that, after the statements which have been made within the last few days in this House and the facts which have come to our knowledge in the last few weeks throughout the whole of Europe, if is perfectly obvious that not only all the money but all the available labour in this country is absolutely essential, not only for military purposes and for creating munitions of war, but for carrying on those industries which are essential to the country, such as the production of food and so forth, and that there is no labour or money left over for carrying out unproductive work which is not absolutely necessary. I am afraid that there are a very large number of individuals throughout the country who have still not realised the necessity for cutting down unproductive expenditure. When you see employment of people in various directions which are not necessary, it makes one really wonder whether those people have really realised that this country is engaged in such a serious struggle as is actually the case.
Besides the unfortunate way in which this matter is dealt with by the private individual, it is undoubtedly the fact that a very considerable number of local authorities throughout the country seem to be equally imbued with the same idea, and I am extremely glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman means to be very stiff about the granting of loans. I do not think it is quite fair or advisable to mention any particular authority, but within the last few days I have seen strenuous efforts made by local authorities with which I am acquainted to raise money for the purpose of road improvement. Of course we all admit that roads have got 1392 to be kept in repair, but I absolutely deny that anything in the shape of permament improvement, or even doing anything to the roads which can possibly be postponed for a year or two, is justified under the conditions in which we find ourselves. I do not know exactly what is being done by the Development Board with regard to assistance of these things, but it is quite possible I should be out of order in mentioning the question of the Development Board. If it can be done, I should certainly suggest that the authorities who administer that fund should not be encouraged to give anything towards the carrying out of that part of their work.
There is one other point which I should like to press upon the right hon. Gentleman. I cannot help thinking that, when we look round and see the necessity for making use of every possible man for useful employment in some direction or another, we cannot fail to come to the conclusion that the first step towards making the best use of our labour and our resources is to have some accurate knowledge, not only as to the numbers of men available in the country, but also as to their capabilities and their occupation. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be possible in order to save time, because I feel sure sooner or later this will happen, that he should bring pressure upon or instruct the county councils throughout the country to commence to make a national inventory of their manhood, with a view to using such information if the time and necessity later on arise? I feel sure that the formation of such a register would absolutely commit this House or the country to no definite line of action afterwards. It is by no means necessarily connected with any system of compulsion at all; but I say if, later on, an emergency comes upon us, it may cause this House unanimously to decide that some form of compulsion or organisation is necessary, and then everybody will be equally agreed that the time had been lost in not having this information at their disposal. I therefore press on the right hon. Gentleman that some steps should be taken, and taken immediately, with the object of ascertaining facts and figures which, later on, we may find to be indispensable, and if not required will mean very little loss.

§ Sir JOHN SPEAR
I desire very heartily to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his return as President of the Local Government Board, and I can 1393 assure him that local authorities who remember his policy when last an that position are looking forward with confidence that his power will be used to help local authorities to perform their important duties with efficiency and yet with economy. It is very gratifying to hear the right hon. Gentleman bear testimony, and I think just testimony, to the work of Poor Law guardians. It leads us to believe that he is not a disciple, or at any rate a supporter, of the phrase which five or six years ago was prevalent, advocating the scrapping of boards of guardians and the putting of the duties which were performed by them in the hands of the county councils. I hope that fallacy is being dispersed, and I am confident that the advent of the right hon. Gentleman to the Local Government Board will do something to destroy such an idea, which is contrary to every principle of democratic government, and contrary, I believe, to the best interests of the poor and the truest interests of economy. There is one point I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, and that is if he would see fit to advise the Home Office to make chairmen of boards of guardians ex-officio magistrates. That dignity has been placed upon the chairmen of district councils, and I certainly think the time has come when an equal compliment should be paid to the chairmen of boards of guardians. The position which they occupy prove their capability and worthiness to take a seat on the bench with advantage to all concerned.
The right hon. Gentleman, I understand, and I am glad to know, has determined to give an increased grant towards the expenses of boarding out children. It is a movement, as the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Crooks) said just now, which has effected very great purposes. Another hon. Member suggested that women inspectors should be appointed to visit those institutions. If it were necessary on the ground of efficiency, so important is it that our children should be well cared for, I would not oppose it, but where boards of guardians appoint committees and include lady guardians—and I wish all boards of guardians had some lady guardians among their members—they constitute a regular visiting committee of the scattered homes. I venture to say that secures efficiency and care, which could not be excelled if we had women inspectors, and the appointment of those officers would be a waste of money. With reference to economy, I have been for forty years a member of most 1394 local bodies, and I have found that as a rule local bodies study economy so far as it is consistent with efficiency. But I quite agree that the stumbling block in the way hitherto of our greater success in that direction has been the sometimes unreasonable demands of the inspectors of the Local Government Board, and I am confident, because the right hon. Gentleman has inculcated the principles of economy, that he will give the inspectors in his Department advice in the direction of paying greater respect to the opinions of local administrative bodies than hitherto has been the case. Boards of guardians certainly know best what is needed for their particular district, and it is extremely irritating for their decison to be overruled by the inspectors who are sent down.
There are two other points I should like to bring before the notice of the right hon. Gentleman. First of all, I would like to say, in reply to the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), who seems to be scandalised because vagrants coming into the workhouse have to submit to a bath, that I think would be a very serious dissemination of disease if that operation were not carried out, and I am bound to say it is a very useful deterrent to so many vagrants going about, because the last thing they like is to have a good wash down. On that point, may I suggest it would be desirable if the policy adopted in some parts of the country of giving vagrants a "way ticket" to obtain some food, were made general throughout the country? It has had a very beneficial effect on the Tavistock union. We know vagrants are encouraged by sympathetic people giving them food and sometimes money, and it is very difficult for anyone who sees a vagrant looking wet on a rainy day to avoid doing so. But when we know he has some food in his pocket, or a ticket that will secure him food, then charitable feelings do not prevail, and the result is that less encouragement is given to the professional tramp system. I believe it would be well if that principle were extended.
I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman for local authorities to be given a larger grant towards the cost of pauper lunatics. It is of the greatest importance that they should be well taken care of, and with reference to the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) I am bound to say I have observed how careful guardians are to have full medical examination and 1395 sanction before a person is removed to an asylum, and I do not think any harm or injustice often occurs in that direction. With reference to the income of local bodies, there is just one point I would like to mention. We know that the Government have taken over a large number of premises in the country for the purposes of munitions of war, and not only are they taking over premises, but in some cases they are building premises. Hitherto the occupiers of those premises paid rates towards the expenses of the boards of guardians and other local bodies. Surely these bodies ought not to lose by the occupation of those premises by the Government, but that rates ought to be paid by the Government while they are in occupation. I think it would be an injustice if the local bodies were deprived of this source of income. It would not affect us much in the rural districts, but in the large towns it would mean a serious reduction of income. I am afraid it would be out of order to say anything with reference to the local authorities and the withdrawal of Grants where the roads are out of condition. The county council cannot claim the cost of the maintenance of the roads until the surveyor gives a certificate that the work has been carried out. Although it is unpleasant for a local authority to be mulcted in the cost of part of the maintenance of a road, it is the only weapon we have to secure complete efficiency, and I do not think it should be with drawn. Many local bodies are anxious to maintain the roads in a good state of efficiency—

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean)
The hon. Member must not pursue that point. It is a matter for the Treasury, and not for the Local Government Board.

§ Sir J. SPEAR
Another hon. Member raised this point, and I was only suggesting where he was wrong. I am certain guardians are anxious, both in relation to the care of the children and the older people, to do their duty as between the poor and the ratepayers. I am confident that the President of the Local Government Board will help us in that direction, and that his advent to the office he now holds will be good both for the local bodies and the country.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
I heartily join in the expressions of pleasure in reference to the right hon. Gentleman's appointment, 1396 and his promise to keep a tight rein upon the borrowings of local authorities. Nobody can doubt the vast importance of stopping able-bodied men doing any kind of work which is not absolutely necessary except for the purposes of the War. I would remind the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Mason) and other hon. Members that a similar kind of work to that which is done by the local authorities has to be done by one of the most extravagant bodies I know, namely, the London County Council, and I hope the Department will see that the loans to the London County Council are dealt with in the same way and that an equally tight rein is kept upon their expenditure. It is useless to ask the Local Government Board to do things which we are very remiss in doing ourselves. There is a kindred point which arises on this subject. I think it is highly undesirable to employ young men who are fit physically for service in the field in ordinary clerical work. There are in the offices of the Local Government Board a large number of men between nineteen and thirty-eight years of age. The number is so large that when I asked the Prime Minister how many men between those ages were working in Government offices in London he asked me not to press the question, because it entailed so much expense and trouble to ascertain. The usefulness of this great Government Department is now very much reduced, because the more they refuse to sanction loans the more they are holding up the men who are physically fit to do work elsewhere. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board the number of men there are in the Local Government Board offices between the ages of nineteen and thirty-eight. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find the number is very large. Those men are doing work which can be done by much older men. The work they are doing could very well be done by educated men much above that age. There is a very large number of educated men pressing on all sides for an opportunity to do this work, which would relieve and set free other men who are younger to do work which they are physically capable of doing.

§ Mr. LONG
I am sure the hon. and learned Member does not wish to pass a wholly undeserved slur on the patriotism of my Department. Does he mean that there are in the Local Government Board offices men of this particular age who 1397 ought to go to the front, and who are either unwilling to go or are being kept back by us; and does he assert that they are not required for the performance of the work of the State?

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
I am sorry that I did not make myself absolutely clear. There is a large number of physically fit men between the ages of nineteen and thirty-eight employed by the Local Government Board whose work could be equally well done, for instance, by barristers at the age of fifty, such as sanctioning loans to local authorities and—

§ Mr. LONG
I do not admit it for a moment.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
I have already asked the Prime Minister a question on this point, and I have referred to the answer which I received. I am now asking for the number of men employed at the present time by the Local Government Board between those ages. The work they are doing could very well be done by professional men. Much of it is largely clerical work which could be done by anyone with a knowledge of municipal law—a knowledge which is possessed by a large number of barristers. The right hon. Gentleman seems angry with me for making this unpopular remark, but the fact remains. I am aware that a large number have already gone to the front. I think this is a most important matter to bring before the House, because if we are preaching this kind of thing to local authorities in the country it is well that we should be able to show that we are clear ourselves as far as central administration is concerned. I have brought this up as a general question on this Vote because I have had no opportunity of bringing it up in relation to other Departments. It is vital that there should be some organisation to deal with this large number of volunteers, whose services could be used in many ways to set free younger men. I wish to endorse what has been said by the hon. Member for Windsor upon the question of a register, but I am not quite sure how it is proposed to carry it out. In August last I suggested that there should be a census taken of the male population of England, and I do not see how you could carry out the proposal which has been suggested simply by asking the local authorities to make a register. Unless there was some compulsion to make the register complete, I do not see how you could make a return 1398 merely by asking for statistics from the local authorities in their particular districts. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us whether he thinks it is necessary that there should be a census, or whether he is of the opinion that this can be done by a direction from the Local Government Board.
With regard to the case of Mrs. Close, I realise that the Local Government Board are in no way responsible for what happened to this lady before she came to the infirmary, and the Home Office would be responsible. Directly the woman is brought to the infirmary, then the responsibility of the Local Government Board begins. I wish to ask, when a woman of that kind is brought to the infirmary, under what power is she received in the infirmary at all? In this case I would like to know, was there any magistrate's order or other authority before she was brought in, and under what power was she detained for three days? When she arrived there apparently she was not a person who appeared to be in want, and when such a case is brought to a workhouse, why is she detained there without any communication with her friends? Is there no regulation which makes it necessary, when a person is taken to a Poor Law infirmary, that some communication should be made to friends, notifying that the person is in the workhouse at that particular time? The last question I wish to ask is, how is it that a person only under observation came to be detained in the same ward as lunatic?

§ Sir H. CRAIK
I am afraid I must dissociate myself somewhat decidedly from the views expressed by the hon. and learned Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Rawlinson) with regard to volunteering for service in the field on the part of officials of Government Departments. I know nothing of the inside of the Local Government Board, but I do know the general position in relation to Civil servants, and I know how anxious they are to serve in large numbers. In the case of the office with which I was connected, I know that nearly 30 per cent. of the whole of the officials employed there have gone to the front. It is all very well to speak of bringing barristers of fifty years of age into those offices. I wonder how the work of the nation would be carried on if you brought in a number of men in that way. You must have men familiar with the work with which they have to deal, and it is all nonsense to talk about 1399 searching through the chambers in the Temple in order to bring in a few lawyers who presumably have retired from their own business, or from whom their business has retired. To manage the affairs of the nation, familiarity with the details, constant practice, and a knowledge of the people with whom you deal are essential points.
There are only two further points to which I wish to refer. They were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Mr. James Mason). One is the check which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will exercise and which I think I am confident from what he said he will exercise upon the extravagance of local bodies. I am going to be bold, and, as one who has spent all his effective work in the sphere of education, I say that the education authorities are by no means free from the charge of extravagance. There is not a single thing good for the children or the teachers in the schools that I would deny. Money that can be spent in increasing the comfort of the pupils and in increasing the status and improving the position of the teachers I would gladly see spent; but I am perfectly certain—and I speak with knowledge—that in late years there has grown up a tendency to be extravagant in school buildings which must and which ought to be checked, and which often arises from the conceit and self-aggrandisement of the local bodies themselves, rather than anything demanded in the interest of education itself. There were never schools that did more than the old parish schools of Scotland. They were not the parish schools which are now considered necessary—palaces erected without any regard to economy and very often without really adding to the comfort or to the health or to the good teaching of the children in them.
I hope that not only will this be checked by the right hon. Gentleman at a time of emergency like this, when the need is unquestionable, but that it will also be checked for the future. After the War we must economise and be thrifty in every particular, and we must economise not in regard to the health or the well-being of the children but in regard to those extravagant buildings which are erected often without any check upon them by those responsible. I recall that in my old days we used to consider a capital expenditure of £10 per head was a very fair allowance for the building of a school. That, 1400 of course, was in Scotland where expenditure is not on such an extravagant or expensive scale; but we built very good schools at a capital expenditure of about £10 per head. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman could bring the expenditure down to anything like three or four times that amount at the present day?
The last point to which I wish to refer, with great solemnity and earnestness, is the necessity of a register of our national resources. I would be the last to criticise, to carp at, or to oppose any measures that the Government wish to take, but I do wish they would not try our patience or the patience of the nation by delaying doing what is of urgent and immediate public importance. We are often told that we should proceed on good business methods. Surely the first business method is to take stock of our national resources. I am not going to speak of what we should do with those resources, or say whether we should use them compulsorily or not, though I have my own opinion upon the matter. I have asked two or three questions of the Prime Minister on the point, and he has always put me off by saying that something will be done either next week or the week following. I was told only to-day that it would come next week. This cannot wait for days, or even hours. The nation will not carp at it and will not criticise it, but it will be intolerant of criticism of or opposition to anything the Government may think necessary. The nation sympathises with our objection to anything like paltering or indecision, or that a clear note to which we can respond should be lacking at this moment. I know that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with what I say, and I do trust that he will allow no time to be wasted in taking this preliminary step of the registration of our national resources. The expense compared with the immense issues of life and death involved will be trifling. Proceeding naturally according to business methods, let us, as every good business man would, take stock of our national resources, but remember that this is not a matter of mere business failure or success. It is for the nation a matter of life and death, and this preliminary step towards organising our national resources ought to be taken without a day's or an hour's delay.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Hayes Fisher)
My right hon. Friend commenced his survey of work of the work 1401 of the Local Government Board by informing the Committee that it is twenty-nine years since he first entered the Department. He might have been a little more reminiscent and have informed the Committee that this is the twelfth year which he has been connected officially and Parliamentary with that great Department. Nobody else has that record in connection with any other Department. His predecessor in office, the present Postmaster-General (Mr. Herbert Samuel), when he stood at this box a year ago to make his first statement on the Estimates of the Local Government Board, pleaded with the Committee that he had only occupied that position for four months. If he pleaded that he had only occupied the position for four months, I must plead that I have not yet occupied my position for four weeks, find therefore, if to-day my answers to the many questions which have been put are not so complete and perhaps so convincing as hon. Members would like, if they will another time come and see me or address themselves to me I may be able to make the answers more complete in conversation or correspondence than I am able to do in the House to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman's speech must have been noticeable for its entire contrast to the speech which was made by his predecessor last year. To-day the War call is over the Local Government Board as it is over every Government Department. Last year we had an interesting Debate. Housing occupied a very large part of the time given to that Debate. The Poor Law and many other questions which cannot find any room to-day in any speech which may be made were also dealt with. But if, after all, the work of the Local Government Board is less in housing, in many other respects the work of the Local Government. Board has in other directions taken a novel form and a very complete form, as the right hon. Gentleman told us when he described the war work of the Board at the present time. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) rather boldly and dogmatically laid it down that there are many men between nineteen and thirty-eight now working for the Local Government Board who could be well spared and who could undertake military service. He has hardly given sufficient attention to the fact that the Broad is now engaged doing and performing a very valuable task of an extraordinary character not ordinarily associated 1402 with the Local Government Board, and the work therefore is rather more than less and requires a staff fully adequate to discharge all the new burdens which it has undertaken. When my hon. Friend suggests that the work could be equally well done by barristers of fifty years and upwards, I must say that is not my experience, and I have had considerable experience now of Government Departments. You want trained men for this work. When I ring my bell I expect somebody to come who has had a long acquaintance with the particular subject on which I wish to consult him.

§ Mr. RAWLINSON
He would be over thirty-eight.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
There are very brilliant men in our Government Department who are not over thirty-eight and who are well qualified to advise raw Parliamentarians who have to cram up a great deal of knowledge in very quick time to give to the House of Commons. I do assure my hon. and learned Friend that he ought to revise the view which he has taken of the Local Government Board. When something like 200 of our staff have undertaken military or naval duties, I believe that we have spared quite as many as can possibly be spared, considering that while the work has diminished in one direction it has very much increased in another. I do not say that of all Departments, because I have not the same knowledge of all Departments, but I do say it of the Department with which I am connected, and I do not think that we can spare more men of military age to undertake military duties.
The first question was addressed by a veteran of the Local Government Board, the new Leader of the Opposition to His Majesty's Government (Mr. Chaplin). He asked me whether we could not sympathetically consider the position of the vaccination officer. It is quite true that the vaccination officer has had reason to complain ever since 1907 of the manner in which he is paid. The question was taken up by the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Crooks) and by one other Member to-day. They pleaded for a review of the position of the vaccination officer, and they said practically the same thing: "Cease paying him by fees. Those fees have become very inadequate, and adopt a different system and pay him by salary." I have the authority of my right hon. Friend to say that he 1403 sympathises with that view. Undoubtedly many of these vaccination officers have lost very heavily by reason of the change that was brought about by the law of 1907. He sympathises with their grievance. He thinks that it ought to be remedied, and he thinks that the remedy ought to be upon the lines which have been advocated to-day of paying the vaccination officer not by fees but by salary, but whether that can be done this year, or whether it may not have to wait for a more favourable opportunity, is a matter which my right hon. Friend would like a little time to consider. The next speaker was my hon. Friend the Member for the Thirsk Division of Yorkshire (Mr. Turton), if he will allow me to call him so, because I see that we have much in common, who made his maiden speech to-day. I do not know whether it would be presumption of me to congratulate him on that speech, but, seeing that he has served on the London County Council, and that he got his early training on that body, I cannot help recognising in him a friend and a brother. He has shown already to-day he is likely to make a most useful Member of this House in all matters pertaining to local government, and it is to be hoped that he will be able, for many years, to impart to Committees the fruits of the long experience he has gained by serving on more than one county council. The hon. Gentleman made a speech which I might have made myself. He complained of the Treasury as not only not giving with both hands, but that sometimes it had withheld both hands. I am not at all satisfied that I have not used much the same expression on many occasions. But I may remind him we ought not to be ungrateful to the late Government who, in their pre-War Budget, did bring forward a large scheme involving a considerable addition to the grants to be made to local authorities. What, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was willing to give the Kaiser has taken away from us. The hon. Gentleman also argued the question as in whose hands the administration of the grant ought to be placed, but that point I think I may dismiss, seeing that in consequence of the War we are not to have the grants, and it will be some little time before any can be forthcoming. When they are, that will be the proper occasion on which to discuss the question who shall administer them.
7.0 P.M.
1404 Another hon. Member made many complaints in regard to roads and road administration. But if I were to pursue that point I am afraid I should be called to order, and be informed that that is a matter which cannot be discussed on the Vote for the Local Government Board. Questions have on many occasions been put in this House on matters connected with the roads, and it has always been stated in reply that they are subjects for the Road Board and not for the Local Government Board, and they have usually been referred to the Secretary to the Treasury instead of to the President or the Parliamentary Secretary of the Local Government Board I am prepared to repeat now what I often said in opposition, namely, that I think, personally, the Road Board ought to be officially connected with the Local Government Board, and it is the Local Government Board that should answer these questions rather than the Road Board. [An HON. MEMBER: "Get it altered."] The hon. Member also asked whether there was any Departmental Committee sitting on the classification of roads. I am informed there is not, but a Joint Committee of both Houses was promised to deal with another question, namely, the licence duties in connection with the very heavy user by motor traffic of the roads, and that went the way of many other things because of the War. It was to be a Joint Committee of both Houses, but up to the present we have not been able to man it. I do not know whether we shall be able soon to do so, but I will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said, and will see whether it cannot be set up in order to deal with that portion of the question.
I come next to the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bury (Sir George Toulmin). He commenced by saying that he entirely endorsed the views of my right hon. Friend as to economy, but he went on to express a hope that there would be no change in the progressive improvement in the treatment of children, and that they, at any rate, would not be barred out from the line of progress which it is desirable to pursue. I would like to assure my hon. Friend that there is no subject nearer to the hearts of those who preside at the Local Government Board than the improvement of the condition of children. I heard my right hon. Friend the President address one deputation—I know he has addressed two—and in his speeches he has given every 1405 encouragement to those who are working in the interests of infants, of the provision of maternity benefits, and of homes for mothers, and of kindred subjects which have now so caught on in the country, although for a long time they were merely considered as the fads of those who promoted them. I am delighted that these questions are now becoming a part of the Government action. While it is most necessary to rigidly enforce economy on the part of the local authorities, I should like to point out that a very great deal can be done for the improvement of the health of the community with very little expenditure, by harnessing to your coach all those men and women, many of whom give their time and their conscientious sense to the promotion of the health of the people. If you do that, if you avoid by any official recognition, or by any official grant, stultifying or thwarting voluntary effort in any way, if you make a combination of official with voluntary workers, I am sure you will proceed a very long way in the direction of improving the health of the people, and particularly in the direction of saving infant life. Nothing is more necessary at the present time than that.
The hon Member also asked one or two questions especially about the treatment of widows and children. Let me assure him that in every circular issued by the Local Government Board we urge kind, sympathetic, adequate treatment for widow and child alike. The hon. Member further asked whether I could give him information as to the number of women visitors appointed and the number of infant life protection visitors. I will endeavour to get him that information, but I may tell him that the policy of the Board is in every way to encourage these women visitors—to encourage the work of women in these particular departments. Suitable progress is being made, and I hope we may be able to say that this, too, is not a matter which requires much money, if any at all.
Then I take the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich (Mr. Crooks). I have already dealt with the question of the salaries of vaccination officers. The hon. Member referred to the old age pensions, and the desirability of an increased Grant. He no doubt is very well aware that questions have been asked on this subject several times, and have always been transferred from the Local Government Board to the Chancellor 1406 of the Exchequer, who says that they relate to his Department, and that he, and not the President of the Local Government Board, is responsible for answering them. I cannot, therefore, add to any information which has been given in answers to questions in this House. But this I may say. I am quite aware that the hon Member for Woolwich puts this question in a very limited form. He asks whether medical comforts cannot be provided without in any way diminishing the amount of the pension? That is a matter for the Treasury, and not one that can be decided by the President of the Local Government Board. But at all events, I will see that it is carefully considered from the point of view whether some relaxation in that way cannot be made. I quite admit it is a kind of relief that would take a very limited form.
When the hon. Member says how desperately hard it is for people to live on 5s. a week, I cordially agree. So it would be to live on 7s. a week. But at the same time we must remember that when old age pensions were given, and when the amount of 5s. was fixed upon, it was never supposed that the old age pensioner would live on his pension. It was never suggested that 5s. was sufficient to keep body and soul together. The whole idea was that it should form the nucleus of the amount which the old age pensioner would receive, and that his relations would be able to make some little contribution to the sum and thus enable him to keep out of the workhouse. No doubt we have to bear in mind, at the present time, how the great rise in the prices of the necessaries of life affects those with small fixed incomes. But, after all, the working classes generally are probably making more money than they have been making for years past, and, consequently, the relations of the old age pensioners are really in a better position to do something more for them than they could before the War. The hon. Member for the Barnstaple Division (Sir Godfrey Baring) spoke of the necessity for economy, and he also dwelt on the great importance of appointing some Department to look after those who are already coming home incapacitated by wounds or disease after serving their country in this War. My hon. Friend will be aware no doubt that as chairman of the Royal Patriotic Fund, as vice-chairman of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, and as a former Commissioner of Chelsea Hospital, who acted 1407 throughout the Boer War, I take a deep and earnest interest in this question. There will be opportunities—next week in all probability, when I understand a Pensions Bill is to be introduced—for discussing this question. I hope, indeed, that it will be pressed on the attention of the Government, and that some Department may have it placed under its supervision. Personally, I cannot conceive any better Department than that with which I have the honour to be connected. I know that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board has already intimated that this particular branch of the question might well be placed under the supervision of his Board. I had better say nothing further on that question, inasmuch as there will be a fuller opportunity of discussing it next week.
I come to a smaller, but not unimportant, question relating to one person. I do not see my hon. Friend the Member for the Brentford Division of Middlesex (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) in the House. I am sorry the hon. Member is not here. He raised the question of the treatment by certain authorities, over whom he thinks the Local Government Board has some control, of a certain lady. I think he gave the name. I am not sure that he was acting in her best interests to bring this case before the Committee. As it turned out, a very regrettable mistake was made by certain police officers. I should like to remind the hon. Member, if he were here, that he seemed to give away the case against the Local Government Board when he said that he was not going to dispute the matter and that he was going to assume that this lady had been pronounced to be insane, or was thought to be insane, by the police doctors. She was brought in as an insane person under the Lunacy Acts, and in accordance with those Acts she was taken to Westminster Infirmary, where she was first seen by the doctor on admission, and then the usual practice was followed. Most of the unhappy persons who are either lunatics or, through some conduct on their part, are suspected of being insane are put to bed—probably the best place for them. Apparently she had to undergo the process of having a bath. Does anybody here argue that at that stage there could be some discrimination made between different classes of persons who are dealt with by the police in this way, and that one person, being a lady, is not to be put 1408 to bed and not to be washed or will not have her hairpins taken away from her, or that she will generally be treated in an entirely different way to the ordinary person who is taken care of by the police as either being insane or likely to topple over the line and become insane?
I cannot see that anybody over whom we have any control acted wrongly in this matter. A most unfortunate mistake was made. My hon. Friend ought to have told the House that a very full apology was made by Sir Edward Henry, on behalf of the police, to this lady for the treatment she received. I have a fairly wide experience of cases of ladies of this kind, and I know it is exceedingly difficult to deal with them. The police have to deal, for instance, with persons who think they are being followed by somebody, or that somebody is in love with them, and who generally behave in a way which tends to show people that they are off their balance for the time. These cases are very difficult for the police, and it is possible that a young policeman may make a mistake now and again. The police admitted that they were wrong, and an apology was tendered for their mistake, but I have no apology to tender for the treatment of this lady in Westminster infirmary. She was treated exactly as an ordinary person would be treated under the present system, seeing that she was brought along by the police and that information was given to those in charge of Westminster infirmary that she was insane, although she was not insane. For some years when I was on the London County Council I was connected with the movement that was set on foot for establishing special receiving houses for all these cases. That is the direction in which we should move. I know that on the London County Council they are moving in that direction, and I hope that before long special receiving houses will be set up for cases of this kind. It is a lamentable thing that sometimes those who have temporarily lost their balance are shut up, as this unfortunate lady was, with four or five other lunatics, some of them raving lunatics. It is lamentable to think that those who have temporarily lost their balance may permanently drop over the line. I think the system is wrong, but I do not say it only because of the case of this lady. Even in the case of all these other lunatics it would have been better if there had been a proper receiving house for them in the early stages and they had been separated from the rest 1409 and not brought into contact with them, and if more merciful and humane treatment had been accorded to them in the hope—and the hope is justified in some cases—that the mind could be saved and the person restored to sanity.
I should like to deal with two other topics. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson), the hon. Member for Aberdeen University (Sir H. Craik), and the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. James Mason), dwelt upon the enormous importance of bringing in, without delay, some measure to establish a national register. I am authorised by my right hon. Friend to say that he has gone a long way already towards meeting their wish. It is certain he will bring in a Bill next week, unless the Prime Minister has good reason to alter the course of business, and when my hon. and learned Friends see that Bill they will find in it an answer, and I think a very satisfactory answer, to the questions they have addressed to me to-day. It would ill become me, even if I knew them, to divulge the contents of that Bill to the Committee, or to give any forecast at all of the speech my right hon. Friend will make on that measure. It is only for that reason, an ample reason in my opinion, that I do not answer the questions put to me as to the nature of that Bill. I will conclude by saying how satisfactory it was to me that my colleagues with whom I served for so many years on she county council, without exception, declared that all local authorities and municipal bodies ought to fall into line with the advice tendered to them by the Treasury and the Local Government Board and ruthlessly cut down their expenditure and restrict demands for loans. We have to deal not only with money. The hon. Member for Windsor pointed out that it means more than money; that it means labour. It means material as well. One of the most disappointing things in the whole of my life is to find myself at the Local Government Board at a time when we have to call halt to almost all measures of social reform. There are few things I have cared for more than housing. There is no question in regard to which I should like to take big steps forward than in respect to the housing problem, yet it is absolutely necessary that we should now refuse to sanction loans for housing schemes, even where they are necessary, because it takes away money, material, and labour.
1410 I hope the Committee will understand that so far as I am concerned it does not indicate any reactionary policy. It does not mean that either my right hon. Friend or I delight in marking time. If anything, it is quite the contrary. It was only a day or two ago that I had to make my first appearance at this box to bring in a Bill to postpone the operation of the Milk and Dairies Acts for England and Scotland. Why was that? Because to carry out those Acts and the more stringent regulations under those Acts for a systematic inspection would have meant that the local authorities would have to largely add to their staff. That is impossible at the present moment. I do not say it would be true in normal circumstances, but there is no doubt about it that if, in the present circumstances, we were to put those Acts into operation the result would be to raise the price of milk. That would not be doing a service to the State and the community, and it would not be carrying out a measure that would operate for the benefit of the community. At the present time we must hold our hands and forego the advantages which would otherwise be conferred by those Acts, and in many other ways—for instance, housing schemes, sewerage schemes, water schemes, and matters of that kind—we must, for the time being, forego the benefits which we might otherwise confer. I hope that by all Departments alike this Treasury rule will be enforced. It will be very hard indeed upon us at the Local Government Board if, while my right hon. Friend instructs me to refuse loans for proper schemes of housing and sewerage, other Departments are allowed to embark on large expenditure for matters which are superfluities and luxuries and which should wait for better days. I hope that when the next Local Government Board Estimates are moved by my right hon. Friend, or somebody standing in his place, that his arms will be no longer paralysed, and that we shall be no longer crippled by the cruel regulations we have now to make, but that we shall be allowed to go forward, if only a little way, with that progressive work in social reform which is so dear to all our hearts.

§ Colonel YATE
I should like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his speech, and to refer to two points. The first is with regard to the Road Board. He told us that the Road Boad is not represented by any Department in this House.

1411

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
I did not say that it was not represented in this House. It is very doubtful how far the Road Board is independent of any Department; but the Department which undertakes to speak for the Road Board in this House is the Treasury.

§ Colonel YATE
I trust the right hon. Gentleman will succeed in bringing the Road Board under the Local Government Board. We all know the tremendous delay that has taken place in regard to the great arterial roads of London. We know that splendid plans have been drawn up, and how those plans have been banded from authority to authority; but the Road Board has no particular head, and nothing has been done. I sincerely trust the right hon. Gentleman will bring it under his authority with the least possible delay and get something practical done. In the second place, I should like to congratulate him upon what he told us about the new Registration Bill. The whole country is looking to the new Government to do something in the matter and are waiting anxiously to know what is to be done. The information that we are to have a Registration Bill next week will cause great joy throughout the country. I should like to say a word in support of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen University (Sir H. Craik) as regards the enormous expenditure by local authorities on school buildings. I know no one in the world who pays so little consideration to the rates and ratepayers as the education enthusiast. If he has unbridled power he will run to any expense without the least hesitation and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will put a break upon his expenditure. I would say a final word in consequence of what was said by my hon. Friend (Sir J. Spear) as to the advisability of continuing and enforcing throughout the whole country the system of food tickets for vagrants. That system has been of the greatest use, and I would ask my right hon. Friend to take this opportunity to try and do something to round up the habitual vagrant. He is a nuisance all ever the country, and under the present circumstances he must be an incorrigible rogue. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will round up all these incorrigible rogues and will adopt some system by which they can be collected together and put to work out their living.

Sir G. BARING
There is one point my right hon. Friend omitted in his admirable 1412 and explicit speech, namely, the request I made to him to issue a circular to local bodies dealing with their ordinary expenditure, and exhorting them to go over it carefully and see where economies could be made.

§ Mr. HAYES FISHER
That I consider a very important matter, and my right hon. Friend will look into it immediately and, if he thinks it would serve a useful purpose, will reinforce the circular which has been sent out by his predecessor.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next (28th June).