HC Deb 24 June 1915 vol 72 cc1349-80

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £234,791, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board. [NOTE.—£127,000 has been voted on account.]

The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Walter Long)

I propose, with the consent of the Committee, to make as brief a statement as I can dealing with the history of the past year. I think it is convenient that this course should be adopted because it enables the responsible Minister to place the chief facts connected with the Department before the Committee, thus avoiding the discussion of minor questions. This year there would seem to be a special reason why I should say something about the work the Department has done in connection with the War. Will the Committee forgive, if, before I embark upon my task, I indulge in one personal reminiscence? It is now twenty-nine years since I first went to the Local Government Board, and was first connected with that Department, and associated with the Debates in Committee of Supply. Those twenty-nine years have seen great changes, both in the Department and its personnel. I am afraid there are very few Members of this Committee present here, or indeed Members of the House, who were in it at the time to which I refer; but there must be many in this House and outside who will be glad to know that the distinguished servant who at that time was the head of the Department, the wisest of counsellors and the most indulgent of friends, Sir Hugh Owen, is still in the enjoyment of health and activity, and is still able to lend his incomparable services to our Department in connection with the management of the Metropolitan Poor Fund.

Although the Department has changed very much during those years, and although naturally there are many new men to be found in it and many old faces missing, and although I have been there but a very short time on this occasion, I have been there long enough to learn without doubt that there is in the Department to-day the same public spirit as ever there was before, and it is manned by men as capable and as devoted to public duty as ever were their predecessors. How the Department has changed may be proved by a very short reference to the figures. In 1886 our Estimates were £174,000, and they rose in 1904, the last year I was connected with the Department, to £227,000. This year they are £360,000, of which £50,000 is a new Vote secured by my predecessor, the Postmaster-General, for the promotion of the interests of infants and the care of infantile life. In 1886 the staff was 400, while the staff of my Department now is 990, and that includes everybody, male and female, old and young. Out of that number I am very proud to be able to say that somewhere about 200 have volunteered their services, and are now serving their King with the Army either abroad or in this country. The subjects to which I desire to call the attention of the Committee are, first of all, the special work which this Department has done in connection with the War. It seems to me at first sight improper that the Department of the Local Government Board should, in any way, be associated with the work which the Government of this country have been called upon to do during the past year in connection with this awful War. Although this Department is called the Local Government Board, it is in reality the Ministry of the Interior, because there is hardly anything connected with the health and the daily life of the people of our country which is not closely connected with our Department. It is very difficult to find a Bill brought in by any Department which does not touch ours, and in which we have not to take some part in considering its provisions or defending it in this House.

The status of the office has been raised since I was there before, but I think there is room for a little improvement in this respect. I know it is the duty of the Treasury to proceed very cautiously in these matters, and they never give with both hands; but, in rearranging my Department, they left something to be completed, and I hope when happier and more peaceful times come and we are able to consider these comparatively minor questions, the Government of that day and this House will be willing to do justice to the men who gave their best services to the country, and who certainly are entitled to treatment equal to that accorded to many other branches of the Civil Service The work which my Department has been called upon to do during this year, which is of a special character connected with the War, refers chiefly to sanitary questions, the provision and maintenance of hospitals and to another most important question, the provision of food supplies both for our Army abroad and for the vast number of troops who are quartered here at home. Of the Local Government Board officers who have been assisting the local authorities and co-operating with the War Office in this important work, there have been twelve medical inspectors constantly at work. They have paid no less than 730 visits to nearly 500 different places where troops have been quartered, and the object of their visits has been, in the first place, to prevent undesirable billets being selected for the troops; secondly, to secure that there should be satisfactory sanitary services for the troops, water supply, sewerage, etc.; and thirdly, that there shall be adequate hospital accommodation for infectious diseases, and prompt action taken both by the local and military authorities.

Perhaps the last matter I need to mention is the prevention of conditions which generally might be dangerous to the health of the troops. In this work the Local Government Board and the local authorities and the War Office have, throughout, worked cordially together, and, as the result shows, satisfactorily; and I do not hesitate to say, speaking with some personal knowledge, that the thanks of this country are due to the officers of this great Department for the invaluable services which have been rendered to the country in a time of great need, and which, I believe, has resulted in securing the very satisfactory results which are to be found at the present moment as regards the health of our troops. In expressing my thanks—and I am sure that the Committee will allow me to express their thanks—to these distinguished officials, I desire to include all the local authorities, and especially, if I may say so, the boards of guardians in the country. The Committee will be interested to know, in connection with hospital accommodation for the soldiers, that my Department has been instrumental in supplying no less than 30,000 beds; it is not only, indeed I venture to say it is not mainly, in the actual provision of beds for soldiers, whether wounded or sick, that the local authorities have done good work. Anyone who has taken an interest in the provision of hospital accommodation for troops knows that people are very willing to provide accommodation and to render personal service so long as it is to be given to troops, preferably to men who come back wounded from the front, but if they are not sent to them, then to soldiers belonging to units serving with the Colours here. Many of the boards of guardians have done even more than this, and, in order that accommodation should be available and that certain buildings should be placed at the disposal of the War Office, they have done that which is not so agreeable to them, and that which does not bring to them so much apparent credit; they have pooled their resources, and they have taken in the inmates of establishments in adjoining unions. In this way alone they have made it possible for these buildings to be placed at the service of the War Office, and for this very large accommodation to be provided for the soldiers.

In paying this tribute, which I gladly do, to the work of the local authorities, and especially to the work of the boards of guardians—indeed, to the work of all the local authorities, county councils, urban and rural districts councils and boards of guardians—I hope they will not think that the end of their service has come. We are extremely grateful to them for what they have done; we appreciate that they have thrown all their resources into a common fund and made them available for this great purpose, but, under the shadow of this terrible War, it is inevitable that much more will have to be asked both of local authorities and of individuals. I have no doubt whatever that it will be my duty to appeal to local authorities for further help, for further sacrifice of time, and for further work in connection with what the Government may think it necessary to do in relation to the War, and I am confident that, ready and generous as has been their response hitherto, so it will be in the future, and that they will do everything they can by placing their resources at our disposal or by undertaking fresh work if they believe that we are asking them to do it in the real interests of our country and in order that this War may be successfully pursued to its only possible termination.

I have said that the condition of the health of the country is to-day unquestionably satisfactory, and it is in no small measure due to the work of the local authorities and to the work of the officers of my Department. It really is an even more remarkable fact than may at first sight appear to hon. Members. Let me ask the Committee to remember what has been going on. You have had the sudden creation of a new Army; you have had men in thousands quartered in different parts of the country; in some cases you have had the population of a small town almost doubled; you have had enormous aggregations of soldiers camped in places where there was no local provision—no water supply, no drainage, and no roads. Everything had to be provided, and it is really almost a marvel that you should have had all these conditions, so utterly different from the conditions normally prevailing in the country, and that you should be able to say at the end of ten months that not only has there been no evidence of unsatisfactory results as regards the health either of the soldiers or of the civil community, but that the general condition in regard to health is as satisfactory as it possibly could be. I should like, in regard to this service, to read a letter which was addressed to my Department before I came to it by the War Office. After stating that they have had under consideration the assistance which local health authorities, under the guidance of the Local Government Board, have rendered since the outbreak of War to troops stationed in their administrative areas, they state that:— This assistance in the unexampled circumstances of the last eight months has been invaluable in safeguarding the health of the Forces and in preventing the spread of infections disease to an extent which would otherwise have been impracticable. 4.0 P.M.

They inform us that they are anxious to convey to us and to the local authorities the warm thanks of the Army Council for the work which has been done. I have already told the Committee how much has been done in regard to hospital accommodation, and I have only this to add. While I am able to congratulate the country and the Committee upon the present satisfactory condition of things, I would take this opportunity to remind them that with the arrival of the hot weather and possibly with the return of large numbers of wounded men, some of them, it may be, suffering not from wounds but from disease, there may be great risks and new difficulties to be safeguarded against, and it behoves our local authorities, and may I venture to say that it behoves all those who live either in town or in country and who take an interest in the local welfare of the people, to see that unremitting attention be devoted to these important local works, and that no effort is spared to see that the health of the community is guarded against any possible invasion and is secured at the high level at which, I am happy to say, it stands at the present moment. We have also had the strongest expression of thanks from the War Office for the co-operation which our Medical Department Food Inspectors have been able to give in regard to the food supplied to the troops, and I think the Committee will remember that on previous occasions where large quantities of food have been supplied for troops there have often been very considerable difficulties in regard to the character and quality of that food and also in regard to its suitability. We, of course, lay no claim to any share of the wonderful and vast amount of credit which belongs to the Quartermaster-General for the supply and distribution of food to our troops, whether at home or abroad. But we are entitled to say that the action of our experts has been of the greatest value to the War Office, and it has resulted, so far as we know, in the food with which the troops are supplied proving to be not only wholesome and satisfactory but of a character that has been most suitable for troops engaged either on active service abroad or training here at home. Proof of it is to be found in the fact apparent to the most casual observer throughout the country, and in the evidence received from abroad, that so far as the physical condition of our troops goes, it is as good as it possibly can be. The remark has been generally made, and it must have occurred to hon. Gentlemen here when travelling about the country, that our troops have shown the most wonderful results from training and living in camp, notwithstanding the hard work and the extraordinarily heavy rains they had to live under in the months of August and September last. Although they were living under such conditions, which could not be expected but to be most unhealthy, the results have been most extraordinary. We can see for ourselves how these men have improved, and that in itself is evidence that the food with which they have been supplied has been the most wholesome and the most suitable that could have been provided.

There is one other matter specially connected with the War, but not perhaps to be regarded as an ordinary departmental matter, to which I feel I should refer. At the beginning of the War, in those terrible days when Belgium was the scene of such inhuman and awful treatment, many Belgian refugees came to this country, and it was necessary to provide for them. It was decided by the Government that a Committee should be appointed to care for and make arrangements for the Belgian refugees. The work of this Committee, although not actually forming part of the ordinary business of the Local Government Board, was handed over to my right hon. Friend the present Postmaster-General, who was then President of the Local Government Board, and he has presided over it ever since. He has devoted to the work an immense amount of personal labour and a great deal of time, and we have the most abundant testimony, from those entitled to speak for the Belgians, that his work has been done with remarkable success. They are, I know, one and all profoundly grateful to him and his Committee for all that has been done. When I succeeded my right hon. Friend, I thought the least I could do, in the interests of the Belgians, and for the credit of this country, was to ask him to continue the chairmanship of that Committee and the performance of those duties, and he was good enough to concede to my request. I am confident that, although he has changed his Department, he will go on with that magnificent work with the same devotion that he has hitherto given to it, and we shall, I hope, be able to feel that, at a time of special suffering, when Belgium was called upon to bear more than her share of the devastation consequent on this awful War, we in this country did all we could to lessen her suffering and to make some provision for her. We owe it to my right hon. Friend and his Committee that this work has been done as economically and as satisfactorily as it has been accomplished.

With regard to the general business of my Department, I am anxious to say some words which I hope the Members of the Committee will be good enough to carefully consider themselves, and I hope also they will be good enough to carry them to those whom they represent. I have been in this House a good many years, and there are two special features connected with the House which a change in the individual representation of constituencies has never seemed to affect. However many new Members there may be in the House, there is one special line which is always taken. When they are talking at large, they are advocates of economy, and I have heard more speeches in this House on the advantages of and the necessity for economy in public administration than I have heard upon any other single subject. But when it comes to the individual Member and his constituency, while he is quite prepared to make a strong speech on public economy on Monday, on Tuesday he will come to the President of the Local Government Board, or to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and he is apt to get really cross if he is not able to secure assurances that expenditure which his constituents wish to carry out will be immediately sanctioned and the necessary loan provided. This is one of the sweets of office. It is our duty to preserve a stern front on those occasions; to make it easy for Members of Parliament to return safely to their constituents, while at the same time we protect the public purse. Never has that duty been so incumbent upon Ministers of the Crown as it is to-day. I believe this House and the country are prepared to make any sacrifices within their power in order that we may maintain the privileges of liberty and good government to which we are entitled; but we cannot find the necessary resources unless the most rigid economy is practised in every Department of the Government.

I know hon. Gentlemen are subjected to great pressure by their constituents to secure sanction for particular lines of expenditure. I felt it my duty to issue a Minute to my Department when I took office, reaffirming the action taken by my predecessor, to the effect that it was only in the most urgent and in the most pressing cases that it would be possible for the Local Government Board to sanction loans to local authorities. I have had already to refuse many loans when, I have no doubt, hon. Members, or some of them, were of opinion that circumstances were pressing. But it must be for the President of the Local Government Board alone to judge what is the nature of the case presented to him. I will do my best to exercise my power with full consideration for the needs of localities, but I do want it to be understood that, so long as I have the honour and privilege to speak for this Department, and to be its representative here, I shall do all in my power to enforce the most rigorous economy in regard to all local administration. I shall feel it my duty to refuse application for loans unless the circumstances be of a very singular character.

I am fortunate in having in this and other parts of my Departmental work the assistance of my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham, who has exceptional knowledge on these questions of local government and special knowledge in connection with financial questions of that kind. He has this branch of our work under his special care. I can therefore answer for it that, if proposals are rejected, it will not be because they have not been fully considered, both by the experts of the Department and by its Parliamentary representatives. Fully considered they will be, not only from the old point of view that sanction can only be given provided that certain conditions are fulfilled, but from the new point of view that, until the War is over, in view of the burdens we have and shall have to bear, we must economise in public and in private, and therefore can only give our sanction when we feel that the circumstances are so exceptional as to justify it.

In addition to economising we did our best before I came to the Local Government Board, and we are continuing that policy, to advise the local authorities to place, so far as they can, those whom they employ at the service of the State. We have suggested to them that where possible, where men are by age and physical condition suitable, they should be allowed to join the Colours, that temporary appointments be made in their place, that satisfactory provision be made in regard to the payment of, at any rate, a portion of their salaries, and for keeping their places open for them. We have advised them, as far as possible, to release all young men, to allow them to be free to offer their services where they can be most usefully applied, and to put in their places older men who can, at all events, adequately discharge the work which has hitherto been done, so that the younger men may do work of greater use, either in the Army or in factories where munitions are manufactured. The local authorities have most cordially responded to our suggestion, and have done their best to place at the disposal of the country all their employés who can by any possibility be spared.

I want to say one word about a Committee appointed to deal with distress arising out of the War. This, again, is not strictly a matter for which the Local Government Board is responsible, but the president of that Committee was at its commencement the President of the Local Government Board. I have succeeded to the chair vacated by my right hon. Friend, although, of course, the work of that Committee is not work for which we are responsible in the sense that I am responsible in other respects for everything done by my Department and accountable here for it. I only speak now as chairman of a Committee composed of a variety of Members. I had the honour to be a member of the Committee myself on the invitation of my right hon. Friend at the commencement of the War, and at a time when I was sitting on the opposite side of the House. On that Committee are many Members of the Government and some of the expert representatives of Departments, and others whose services it was thought would be valuable because of their previous experience. I should like to say, having been a very regular attendant at the meetings of that Committee—I have not missed very many—although the work has been done, I believe, in a thoroughly satisfactory way— and it certainly has been carried out most harmoniously—we are indebted to my right hon. Friend for the conduct of the Committee, which, at its very commencement, had an element of difficulty owing to possible divergence of opinions, but which has throughout done the work which has fallen to its lot with advantage to the community.

I think this Committee should know the view which was taken by that body. Although I cannot, as I say, answer for the Committee, as I can for the Department, the view we took was that it ought to be our duty to prevent if possible suffering as a consequence of the War, rather than to relieve suffering after it had been created; but we also took another view, and that was that we ought to be extremely careful to avoid spending public money, whether it comes out of the Exchequer or whether it comes from charitable sources such as the National Fund started by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales—we ought to be extraordinarily careful that funds of this character were not used under the cover of alleviating distress alone.

Sir GODFREY BARING

I should like to ask whether, in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, the whole policy of the Committee in allocating money to various districts will be open to discussion? If the right hon. Gentleman is going into that matter, I suppose we shall have a right to consider the way in which the Committee have allocated the fund?

Mr. LONG

On that point of Order, may I say I made it perfectly clear that my Department is not in itself responsible, but I regarded it as an act of courtesy to the Committee to make a general statement on this subject. Of course, if that is to be taken advantage of in order to open a general discussion on the policy of the Committee, it is quite obvious I should not continue.

The CHAIRMAN

I was watching very carefully what the right hon. Gentleman was saying, because I was well aware of the difficulty. I think he carefully guarded himself against bringing a Committee, which is not responsible to this Committee in which we now sit, into the sphere of Debate. Of course the hon. Member is quite right in saying that if the President began to discuss the reasons and methods of allocation, then other Members might follow him, but I think, if I may say so, he is too old a Parliamentary hand to fall into that trap.

Mr. LONG

I am very grateful to you, Sir, for your remark. I had really reached the end of my story. I only proposed to tell the Committee in very general terms what had been the action of the Public Distress Committee, and I was giving an illustration of the way in which it had sought to prevent the creation of artificial poverty which was the case with many public funds in days gone by. It is a remarkable fact that to-day, after ten months of War, and when this country has been called upon to make enormous sacrifices, that the general condition of the country in regard both to unemployment and to poverty is better than it has been for forty years. I was looking today at the figures for England and Wales and for the Metropolis in regard to pauperism, and it is a remarkable fact, for which I think we have great reason to congratulate ourselves, that the figures in regard to England and Wales are 16 per 1,000, and for London 20.3, which are-the lowest figures in the returns for a period of forty years. As regards unemployment, it is not necessary to quote figures, because the facts speak for themselves far more eloquently than any figures can do. Everybody who has made even the most cursory examination of the question of labour and unemployment knows that the country is not at present in a condition of unemployment, but that the difficulty is to find adequate labour for the work there is to be done.

I think my Department, which, after all, is to a large extent responsible for the administration of the various laws of this country which govern these questions and which has been very closely identified with all that has been done since the outbreak of War, may congratulate itself to-day that the condition of the country, both in regard to health and in regard to the sufferings which result from either unemployment or poverty, is as satisfactory as we find it. We may go further than that. We as a country may congratulate ourselves upon this great fact, because it has often been my lot before, when I have been dealing with Local Government Board Estimates, to point out that although our Department is essentially, if I may so term it, a peaceful Department not closely connected with the defences of this country, yet in reality it is to these great Departments and to these local authorities and to their wise and careful administration that the country must look if they are going to have at their command in times of crisis and emergency an unfailing supply of strong and healthy men and women to do the work without which no country can hold its own when it is overtaken, as we have been overtaken, by a great situation such as that with which we are now confronted. Therefore, we may congratulate ourselves, not only as a Department and as the House of Commons, but as a country as a whole, that the record is as good and as wonderful as it is revealed by the figures in regard to pauperism which I have quoted and the facts known to everybody in regard to unemployment and to labour generally.

As to the general health of the country, I have said that in the districts where we have had large collections of soldiers it has been satisfactory. That may be said of the country generally. There has been a curious outbreak of measles among the grown-up people, which largely affected the soldiers. We believe that the reason for that is probably to be found in the constant movement of soldiers which takes place as part of their military business and which has, no doubt, taken infection from place to place. That, however, is being carefully watched. It will probably be necessary to make some fresh departure in regard to dealing with the disease of measles, which has been looked upon as an almost harmless complaint mainly affecting children, but which has turned out to have a serious result in regard to some men it has affected. It will be necessary to strengthen our position in regard to that particular disease, but otherwise the position is one upon which we may congratulate ourselves. There were 2,500 cases of cerebro-spinal disease, commonly called spotted fever, but they are rapidly decreasing.

There was an apprehension in the country, shared by some hon. Gentlemen in this House, that there had been a sudden increase in infantile mortality, due to a want of proper nourishment or proper care. I believe there is no foundation whatever for that view. There has been an increase in infantile mortality in the earliest days of the infant's life, but that increase was traceable at once to particular diseases—measles and whooping cough—which account for it all. There is no justification whatever for the suggestion that this increase has been due to any privations from which the people have suffered. I am confident, and I am sure my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General will confirm me in saying this, that our Department has been most persistent in watching the course of events in the country, and has continued to feel the pulse of the people in regard to poverty, suffering, or disease, and I believe we may truthfully say to-day that we have come through these ten months stronger and better than we could ever have hoped to do. Suffering the country has had to meet. Suffering the country must undergo in a great War like this; but such suffering as there has been has been reduced to a minimum. On the whole, reviewing all the circumstances, the condition of the people is far better than we could have anticipated, and that is one thing upon which, as a great national fact, we may congratulate ourselves.

It only remains for me to make a very short reference to one matter upon which we shall all feel no small pride. Almost immediately after the War broke out, when it was doubtful how suitable our resources would prove to be, our Oversea Dominions sent us, in the most generous manner, gifts of all kinds. Foods of all kinds were sent. I have only a few of the figures here, and they include 1,000,000 bags of flour from the Government of Canada, 250,000 sent by Ontario, 4,000,000 pounds of cheese from Quebec, 25,000 cases of canned salmon from British Columbia, 100,000 bushels of potatoes from New Brunswick, besides gifts of all kinds from Australia, New Zealand, and elsewhere. These were sent at once. Like the troops, they came unasked. They were volunteered at once from all parts of the British Empire, so that at the same time, in addition to sending men and munitions, they thought there might possibly be want in parts of what they regarded as the over-crowded Mother Country, and with both hands they sent us these splendid gifts which have been distributed in what we thought to be the best method throughout the country and which have tended largely to aid us in avoiding any poverty or suffering. I am sure that the Committee will desire to recognise to-day this splendid generosity on the part of these great Oversea Dominions, and if at times we are inclined to feel more bitterly than at others the burden of the great trial with which our country has been confronted, there is, even in this great sorrow, a very bright silver lining in the fact that it has revealed, as has never been revealed before, the wonderful love of the Oversea Dominions for the Mother Country and their extraordinary power of helping us not only in men and munitions, not only with these splendid gifts to which I have referred, but with the sympathy and love which they have given to us in such large measure and which has helped us materially in the discharge of our great task.

Mr. CHAPLIN

The right hon. Gentleman commenced his very interesting statement by paying a most charming tribute to Sir Hugh Owen, who has so long presided over the Local Government Board, which, if I have the permission of the Committee, I should like most heartily to endorse, because if I remember aright on the last occasion when my right hon. Friend represented the Local Government Board he succeeded me—I, like all those who have ever had to do with Sir Hugh Owen, who have had the advantage of his invaluable aid and assistance, and everyone who has been in any way connected with him, have been delighted to hear what my right hon. Friend told the Committee just now, that he was still in the full vigour and activity of life and intellect. So far as I am concerned, I only wish to add, long may he live to enjoy those gifts! No less gratifying was it to me to learn from my right hon. Friend that he finds the existing staff at the Local Government Board distinguished by all those admirable qualities which, as long as I can recollect, they have invariably possessed. If he is pleased with them, of this I am quite sure, that they will as warmly welcome his return to an office which he represented twenty-nine years ago. When these are the relations which prevail between the chief of the Department and the men who serve him, it is the best possible augury for the satisfactory conduct of the public business with which that Department is concerned. We all heard with the greatest interest what has been done by this Department in connection with the War. We are delighted to know how satisfactory the accommodation and the provisions made for them by the Local Government Board have been with regard to the health of the troops, and to anyone who has seen them, as I have seen them, in one of these towns which has been crowded with troops almost since the commencement of the War, namely, Northampton, they all appear to be in the very pink of condition—fit to run, if I may use a sporting expression; and this is the position in which we find these coming heroes, these men who at no distant time will be fighting for us at the front with the same gallantry as the men who are there to-day. This is the condition in which they find themselves after the provisions made for them by the Local Government Board.

I am sure the Committee will entirely agree with every word that fell from my right hon. Friend with regard to the exercise of the most rigid economy with regard to loans under all the conditions in which we find ourselves to-day, and still more heartily, if possible, will they endorse everything that fell from him with regard to our Overseas Dominions, which I am sure went home to the hearts and feelings of every man who heard his statement. Nothing can exceed the patriotism and love of the Mother Country which was exhibited by all the Overseas Dominions the very moment the War broke out, and it will be remembered in the heart of every Englishman and woman in the country for the rest of the life of any one among them.

In what my right hon. Friend said of the staff by which he is served at this moment, I had hoped that we might have heard something on the subject of the vaccination officers, who serve under the Local Government Board, for that is a subject to which my attention has been repeatedly directed, and two years ago I raised the question and made an appeal on their behalf. Their position at present is undoubtedly one of very considerable hardship. It arises from the fact that much of their resources on which they have to live were derived from fees which they received from vaccination. The Vaccination Bill, of which I was the author, had the most triumphant results, for as long as I remained at the Local Government Board, in spite of the admission of the conscientious objectors, I believe vaccination was trebled or quadrupled. That, of course, gave these gentlemen who accepted the position under the terms of the then Act of Parliament a salary that they were thoroughly entitled to. But then came the time when, under the auspices of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. John Burns), the law was altered, with the effect that the number of vaccinations has fallen off in the most deplorable manner.

The CHAIRMAN

I must warn the right hon. Gentleman that he is discussing legislation, and will no doubt invite a reply. I cannot allow the merits of past legislation to be discussed in Committee of Supply. We are only concerned with how the laws are carried out.

Mr. CHAPLIN

I apologise. In my anxiety to be of service to a worthy and deserving number of officials who find themselves placed in a hard position perhaps I have gone strictly beyond the line of order, but I think you have allowed me to say enough to show what their position is, and I was anxious to hear whether it might not be possible for my right hon. Friend under the existing provisions of the law to do something to ameliorate their position, and place them on a more satisfactory footing. A right hon. Gentleman before he left the House asked me to say something on the question of infantile mortality, but that question has been absolutely disposed of by my right hon. Friend, and I have nothing more to say than to express the general satisfaction with which I heard his statement.

Mr. TURTON

I hope I shall not be considered presumptuous if I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his able, interesting, and eloquent survey of the Local Government Board, and I hope, in addition, he will forgive me if I say it was with the very greatest satisfaction that those of us who have spent many years of our life in local administration found that we were to have the right hon. Gentleman as President of the Local Government Board. It is no disparagement to my right hon. Friend (Mr. Herbert Samuel) to say that in the present right hon. Gentleman we have one whom we can trust to assist us in our administration of the affairs of the different localities, and we have one whom we know we can approach with every sympathy when we come to ask him for assistance. The right hon. Gentleman paid a tribute to the local authorities. I can only thank him and assure him that it will be an incentive to those of us who try to administer the affairs that we have met with such recognition at his hands.

The right hon. Gentleman told us of the very large increase which had taken place in the Estimates during the period to which he alluded. Unfortunately those of us in the country who are responsible for the finances of the district cannot view those increases with the same equanimity. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Treasury never gave with both hands. The Treasury very frequently fails to give with any hands at all, because we are repeatedly obliged to call their attention to the fact that we are continually having fresh duties imposed upon us and at the same time we are not receiving that which we have a right to expect, a countervailing Grant from the Treasury in respect of those duties. The right hon. Gentleman also told us, which is only very sound and good advice at a time like this, that it was our duty to be as economical as possible. I can promise him that whatever my Constituents may have desired to get out of the Local Government Board, I shall not ask him for anything which will cost him a fraction of a penny. These are matters of comparatively small importance. We have had this week two very large matters, and of course it cannot be expected that the same attention can be given to these minor matters, but still to us in the country they are all-important, and although they may seem minor matters to discuss in the Imperial Parliament, yet in themselves they are of relatively great importance to the local authorities.

I should like to thank him for his courteous and sympathetic reply to me a fortnight ago, when he said he was prepared to consider applications from boards of guardians to allow an increase in the amount which had been previously sanctioned by the Local Government Board from 5s. to 6s. in the case of children who had to be boarded out. It is extremely difficult, owing to the increased cost of the necessities of life, to properly feed and house a boy eight or nine years old for 5s. a week, and it would be the very worst economy on the part of the Local Government Board if they did not see that the rising generation were properly fed and that their boarding-out committee had a free hand to see that they got proper food and nourishment. I have had considerable experience in local government, and I make this admission to the right hon. Gentleman: You can very frequently get round one of the Government Departments, and if he had not seen his way to make this concession to the board of guardians by increasing the allowance of boarding-out committees, I will tell him exactly what we should have done. The Local Government Board have no authority over the allowance for the outfit of the boy, and therefore it would have been very easy for the boarding-out committee to have gone to some house and said, "It is quite true the Local Government Board has limited us to 5s., but we will give you a good outfit allowance, and you can take it out of that and make up the deficiency in the cost of feeding the child." I am glad the right hon. Gentleman did not insist on us descending to any matters of that sort.

I want to call the attention of the Committee to some questions connected with roads. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman, because I know he will hear a good deal of this question to-morrow, and the succeeding days; but perhaps he will forgive me if I take him for a preliminary gallop over the course this afternoon. I want to ask who is responsible for withholding the grant for a road unless there is some certificate given that all the roads in the district are adequately maintained. It is an entire innovation. For the first time we are told that these grants will not be payable unless all the roads are adequately maintained. What roads does this refer to? Are these the county council roads or the district roads? Who is to inspect them? Is a new office to be created? The right hon. Gentleman speaks of economy. Are we to have now an entirely new class of official who is to go round all the roads of the country? Under whose supervision are they going to give this certificate before we are able to get the grant? If the official is under forty years of age he would be much better employed in the trenches in Flanders. If he is over that age, he is probably some old woman whom it is quite unnecessary to employ under these circumstances. I want to know by what authority that grant can be withhold. It is money that has been collected by us and sent up to London and we have a perfect right to get it back, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman, who is the custodian of the roads of this country, to give us some intelligible answer to that question. I would like to know whether his Departmental Committee is still sitting to deal with the question of the classification of roads. In regard to roads, there are two matters which, at any rate, have created considerable interest in the North Riding. There is the question of tractions upon the roads and there is also the question of the service of motor buses and charabancs which go over our roads. Is the right hon. Gentleman and the Departmental Committee still receiving evidence in regard to the question of tractions? We think—and I should like to know whether he will be able to express an opinion on this point—that the annual licence charged for these tractions ought to be increased. We also think that the daily permit should be left at the discretion of the county council, with a maximum of 10s. per day. In regard to motors and charabancs which make no contribution whatever to our local rates, is that question going to be considered by a joint Committee of both Houses? We were told, several months ago, that a joint Committee of both Houses was about to be appointed. I would like to know why that Committee has not been appointed in order that some recommendations might be brought up so that some fair contribution might be obtained from those companies which run the motor buses and charabancs towards the cost of these roads, which, at the present time, cannot carry the traffic that is placed upon them. In the North Riding there are 534 miles of main road, and we have only twenty-one miles that are calculated to bear traffic of this sort, and it is a monstrous injustice upon the ratepayers of the North Riding that they should be called upon to put their roads into such an adequate state as to carry motor-'bus traffic and char-a-bancs. I know I am laying myself open to the taunt from the right hon. Gentleman, as a director of the North-Eastern Railway, that we are one of the worst offenders in this respect, but at the same time I can only say that the railway company will bear its fair contribution, and it is only just that a contribution should be paid by these companies which reap a profit out of their traffic upon the roads.

I would also draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the question of nursery Grants. Amongst the many misfortunes of this War it has been a very great misfortune—I am not complaining of it—that these Grants cannot be given, and I do ask the President of the Local Government Board, speaking as I do on behalf of the county councils, to turn his attention to this suggestion that the administration of these Grants ought to be in the hands of the county councils. We were led to understand that if these Grants had been given they would have been given to the different insurance committees throughout the country. I do not want to say one word against the insurance committees. I was honoured by being selected as chairman of our first insurance committee, and I worked on it as well and as properly as I could, but I would point out that the insurance committees can only deal with a limited number of people. They can only deal with insured persons and their dependants, whereas the county council has charge of the whole inhabitants of the place. Already many county councils subscribe to the different nursing associations; already we give nursing scholarships and other Grants; and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to interest him self in this question, and to say that the county councils are a better authority for administering these Grants than the insurance committees can possibly be. There is another matter to which I desire to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, and that is the question of the appointment of the clerks of county councils. County councils have been in existence twenty-six years, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman does he not think that the time has almost arrived when county councils could be trusted to engage and appoint their own clerks? As the Committee is no doubt aware, at the pre sent time the clerk of the peace is ex officio the clerk of the county council. In our own North Riding I do not wish to suggest that there is any difficulty about that, and I do not want to say that perhaps there are no reasons why the Standing Joint Committee should not appoint them, but I would ask the right hon. Gentle man's attention to this—

The CHAIRMAN

I understand that the matter now being raised by the hon. Member comes under the existing law and is a matter affecting legislation. The hon. Member will see that in Committee of Supply we deal only with the administration of matters within the existing law.

Mr. TURTON

I hoped that I should have been in order in asking the right hon. Gentleman to direct his attention to a matter which we consider a grievance under this Vote and in suggesting that the time of the right hon. Gentleman might be usefully occupied in considering something which hereafter unquestionably should be a matter of legislation. If I am not out of order on that point I do desire to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman's time might be usefully employed, in consultation with the Home Secretary, to discuss the question whether an office which is admittedly to-day a freehold office is in keeping with our democratic time. Would it be believed that at the present time the clerkship of the county council is a freehold office? Nothing in the world can dislodge him. He can behave exactly as he likes. He can tell you, "I have got a freehold office." Nothing short of misconduct can get rid of that man. Probably he is too senile to commit any misconduct, and the result is that he can continue in his freehold office. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to give his careful attention to that fact and see whether it is not time that the clerk of the county council should be appointed on more democratic lines and on the usual business lines of being liable to six months' notice. I do not know whether it would be in order to discuss the question of local taxation on this Vote, but I would like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us that when we collect the local taxation licences we should be entitled to return the net amount and not send up the gross amount and have to meet all the cost. I do not know whether I shall be going beyond what is allowed under this Vote, but I cannot help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman has a golden opportunity at the present time, and that in the interests of local government he would be very well and usefully occupied, at a time when all parties are together and practically unanimous, if he could devise some large scheme of decentralisation and devolution by which so many matters which are brought to this House might be dealt with by the local assemblies and by local opinion on the spot. I have been sitting during this Session upon the Local Legislation Committee, and there is nothing on that Committee that has impressed me more than the fact as to how much could be done by the local authorities, and how unnecessary it is to bring them up to Westminster to discuss matters here which could be very well dealt with in their own localities. We spent considerably more than half a day in discussing in what particular part of a street a urinal should be placed. Another time we were discussing for ever so long whether a disused burial ground might be used as a tramway shelter. Witnesses are brought up and counsel are paid fees out of all proportion to the service they render, and public time is being wasted in this way, and I do venture in all humility to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he might see whether both parties in this House could not agree upon some large scheme of devolution and decentralisation, thereby relieving this great Imperial Parliament of unnecessary work, and giving to the local assemblies work which they could do most properly and most efficiently.

Sir GEORGE TOULMIN

I am not sure whether the speech we have just heard is a maiden speech or not, but if so, it shows we have got a Member who is very well up in local affairs and who, when legislative proposals are before us, will be able to give us some very good advice upon the various matters raised as a result of his experience. Although the President of the Local Government Board is not the President whom we expected a few months ago would be in that position to-day, I have no doubt that we shall meet with a sympathetic ear from the right hon. Gentleman, and we shall not by any means be looking for the cloven hoof in regard to any departures from the steps of his predecessor. We do not expect that there will be any change in the progressive improvement of the condition of children, except in those very necessary measures of economy to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred in respect of applications for loans for buildings. That, I think, is one of the directions in which he will carry the general sentiment of the House with him. We may congratulate ourselves that the right hon. Gentleman's Department has a much smaller number of people dependent upon it than we might have expected some nine or ten months ago would be the case to-day, and that there is so much less poverty and less unemployment than we feared. This has to a certain extent freed his inspectors to take some part in the work which has been cast upon public officials in providing for the Belgians and in looking after other matters. I think that a remark which the President of the Local Government Board made in regard to the position of his inspectors ought to meet with the sympathy of the House. Of course, they ought to be treated in all respects on an equality at least with other Civil servants. I do not by any means regret the extra expense which this Vote shows in comparison with the years to which the President referred. That expense is very largely due to the increase in the inspectorate, and that increase has been amply repaid by increased efficiency, by the avoidance of suffering, by the saving of life, and by the improvement which they have been able to effect in the administration of workhouses and workhouse infirmaries. There is no class of Civil servant that has duties requiring more tact and discretion and greater care and patience than that of the inspector who goes round to visit boards of guardians. They meet with what some of us are rather inclined to think ignorance and stupidity and a tendency to be penurious.

Mr. W. CROOKS

Have you ever been a guardian?

Sir G. TOULMIN

I have been a guardian for probably twenty years.

Mr. W. CROOKS

That's better.

5.0 P.M.

Sir G. TOULMIN

If I had not been a guardian I would not be inclined to say that perhaps at times they were ignorant and sometimes stupid. From all I have observed in connection with the advice given by the inspectors of the Local Government Board, the boards of guardians were very slow to adopt improvements I think the inspectors have deserved very well of the State. They have carried out their duties with very great tact and very great skill. I think the compliment which was paid by the President to boards of guardians most gratifying and it was well deserved. More can be done, and more will be done, by boards of guardians, and I feel sure if they are called upon to perform further duties they will willingly perform them. My own feeling is one of regret that they were not called upon in the very early weeks of the War to undertake some special duties, such as housing recruits and so on, which I believe would have been a means of avoiding certain scenes and certain inconveniences which occurred and which we all regret. If it should be necessary I am quite sure that everyone will be glad, for instance, to accommodate himself so as to free some of the workhouse buildings which are suitable for hospitals. And I know that there are even some of the old refugees in the workhouses who feel that they would be doing a bit if they themselves were put to some inconvenience in order that the places where they now are well looked after could be used for the wounded soldiers. Now that there is a much greater number of children who are boarded out or sent out to homes in which there is a fixed sum paid, there was a fear that the children might suffer if the limit of payment which the guardians were allowed to make was not raised owing to the increased cost of provisions, coal, and so on. I was very glad to learn that this limit had been raised some months ago by permission being given, when applied for, to increase the allowance up to 6s. per week per child. There are also institutions where, I think, the Board had not seen its way to increase the limit. But a sort of middle course was adopted in one case into which I looked which proved valuable—that is by permission for a subscription to be given to the institution. In that particular case it was absolutely necessary for the welfare of the children that there should be additional funds at the disposal of those who were conducting the institution, the alternative being the return to the guardians of a number of children who have been very well looked after. In that event the board of guardians themselves would have had to make other provision, and, I feel quite sure, would have been put to a great deal more expense than they were put to by the additional subscription which they were allowed to give.

I do not quite agree with the hon. Member who spoke last as to the great ease with which Local Government Board inspectors and auditors are got round. I am not very much afraid, even as an economist, of boards of guardians getting round them in the way of spending money. My fear rather is that boards of guardians will get round them by not spending enough money—for instance, in the payment for boarding out. There were some of the very backward unions which were paying only 3s. 6d. per week per child boarded out. I agree with the hon. Member as to the inadequacy of such a sum for properly building up and clothing a growing lad or girl. It is altogether inadequate, and is not economy. I would rather like the Local Government Board to ask its inspectors, when they do go round, to impress upon boards the necessity for an adequate allowance. In reference to the supervision of scattered homes which are now being adopted in some of the smaller unions, the question arises as to who shall be appointed as superintendent with the oversight of the homes. It seems a very easy solution to make the workhouse master the superintendent and let him supervise the homes. It may be felt that his chief duty is to look after the supervision of the accounts, and he knows how to keep the workhouse accounts, and could very easily add the keeping of the accounts of the scattered homes. So far as the accounts are concerned that may be true, but I do not think that the workhouse master is the type of official who should have the care of a family of children. These scattered homes are really little families of children, with boys and girls of different dispositions, characteristics and feelings, and I think that ins many of these cases the advice of a woman would be most valuable to the mothers. If there could be appointed a woman visitor for boarded-out children or the infant life protection visitor, if that officer is a woman, then I think that she would be able to have those little talks with the mother of the children which would benefit both her and the little family in her charge.

I wonder whether the Local Government Board could give us, without a great deal of trouble and expense, a statement as to how many unions there are in which women have been appointed infant life protection visitors, and in how many have the relieving officers been appointed? I do not think that the relieving officer is quite the best man. He is frequently very busy. He has a tendency to look very much to economy and to the discovery of cases of imposition, on the guardians and so on, and I think in regard to this class of work that a woman is a much better officer. Coming to the regular work of the inspectors of the Local Government Board, I hope that the inspection of the workhouses and workhouse hospitals will not be relaxed. The women inspectors there who have been round I think have done good in the hospitals, but if deterioration once sets in in one of these institutions it is very rapid. In many of these places nurses have left for patriotic reasons—we cannot regret that they have gone where the need for them is greatest—and the attention of the other nurses is distracted by the circumstance in which the nation now is, circumstances of war and the coming of wounded soldiers, from the humdrum duties of looking after chronic or tedious cases. I hope that attention will be paid to this matter, so that they may feel that these visitors are coming, that their coming will not be intimated, and that the inspection which they make will be as thorough and as careful as possible. The President of the Board made a strong declaration of policy in regard to economy. I think that the House is sure to support him in refusing loans and in deferring all new work which can possibly be put off, and I think that we may trust him and his Department to consider carefully the real economy of granting sufficient sums for the completion of work where not to grant them would keep unused building or work which would be useful if they were completed. With that exception—and I will not say that it is an exception, because I have no doubt that it is in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman—the House will not in future ask the reason for refusing a loan, but during the stress in which we are now living we shall rather ask the reason for granting a loan. In those circumstances I think that the right hon. Gentleman may rely on the support of the House.

Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS

I desire to join in congratulating my hon. Friend (Mr. Turton) below the Gangway on the speech which he has delivered, rather move perhaps on the manner of it than on the matter. I cannot agree with him in everything which he said in regard to the question of roads, but I congratulate him on his having made a speech on this occasion which other Members might not have been able to make. However, I am not going into the matters with which he dealt. I put down a notice to reduce the salary of my right hon. Friend by the sum of £100, but on consideration I will not move it. I do not want to reduce his salary by £100 or by any amount, and I do not want to throw the whole Cabinet into chaos by obliging them to allocate the difference in the way in which they would have to do it. But I put down the Motion because I want to call attention to a particular case, and I think that this shows the use of the House of Commons, because it shows that while we are engaged in a great war the House of Commons is not unable to take cognisance of injustice done to a single subject of His Majesty the King. I desire to call attention to the treatment accorded to a lady in the Westminster workhouse. I must begin by telling the House how this unfortunate lady got there. The lady in question is a certain Mrs. Close—I do not think one need go into her antecedents, but, she is a woman of position—who had views similar to those which I hold on the subject of the German alien perils, in our midst, the result of which was that she made various inquiries and had a great deal of communication with the police. On a certain day, the 15th November, she went down to Scotland Yard and was induced at Scotland Yard to enter a cab, and shortly afterwards found herself in Westminster workhouse. I am not going into the question here as to her treatment at Scotland Yard: that is entirely a matter for the Home Office Vote, and it is not necessary for the purpose of what I am going to raise in regard to her treatment in the workhouse to assume whether the lady was perfectly sane or slightly insane.

The view of Scotland Yard was that she was slightly insane, and that for her own benefit it was desirable she should be taken to the observation ward of the workhouse, and should remain there until it was decided whether she was sane or not. Whether that was desirable or whether she should have been removed I am not debating this afternoon. I am quite willing to assume in what I have to say in regard to what happened in the workhouse that the police were justified in taking her to the workhouse. But I am going to ask the right hon. Gentleman, after he has heard my statement, as to what this lady underwent at the workhouse to issue a circular to workhouse authorities, or take such steps as will prevent any such treatment being accorded to any of His Majesty's subjects in future.

This lady committed no offence of any kind. She had not been brought up at the Police Courts or anything of that sort. She was not mad in any sense of the term. The police thought it desirable that, for her own benefit, she would be taken charge of in the workhouse infirmary. She was taken to the Westminster workhouse infirmary on the 15th November last year. When she went there she did not realise where she was; she was not told where she was going. She was put into a cab and taken away by two officials of the police. When she got to the workhouse, she was asked by somebody in authority whether she would like a rest. She said, "I do not want a rest; I am going on to get a couple of tickets for the funeral of my cousin, Lord Roberts." This was a few days before the funeral, and this lady was a cousin of the late Field-Marshal. Then the official replied, "Do you want to be put into a separate cell?" She then found out clearly that she had got into some kind of a place which she did not expect, and without any immediate opportunity of appealing to her friends, she was then and there placed in what is called the observation ward for lunatics. I do not think that I can do better than quote the letter which this lady wrote to the First Commissioner of Police, setting out the treatment accorded, in an English workhouse, to this woman, against whose character there was no possible complaint, in the year 1914. She writes:— I was conducted down a narrow passage into a room where there were several beds. A nurse stripped me of everything, put me into bed, took my rings off my hand, and the combs and hairpins out of my hair, and then the doctor came and examined my body. Then I was given a hot bath, my head was washed, and I was allowed to dry myself, given a rough striped flannel vest, and cotton nightdress to put on. The only suggestion made was that it was for her own benefit that she should be taken care of. She goes on to say:— Upon asking where I was, the nurse told me I was in the lunatic observation ward of the Westminster Workhouse. I was given hot milk and bread and butter.

An HON. MEMBER

This lady was removed to the workhouse by direction of the police, and not by the workhouse authorities.

Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS

I have said that I am not complaining of the action of the police; what I am complaining of is the action of the workhouse authorities which allows a lady, or anybody else you like, who is suspected, to be treated in this way.

Mr. LONG

My hon. and learned Friend says he cannot raise this question, where it relates to the action of the police, except on the Home Office Vote. What I cannot understand is what charge is made against the workhouse people, who were acting on an intimation from the police. If the police gave wrong information, that was the fault of the police and is a question for the Home Office. So far as the officials of the workhouse were concerned, they were acting, as they were bound to act, on the instructions of the police.

Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS

The right hon. Gentleman had better allow me to complete my statement before interrupting me.

Mr. LONG

I beg unreservedly to apologise and to express my regrets. I rose in the hon. Gentleman's interest, and not to annoy him.

Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS

The case I am making is against the Westminster guardians. There was no need whatever for this lady to be brought by the police to the workhouse infirmary for the purpose of detention, or that she should have been subject to these indignities. There was no need to place her in a lunatic ward, where there were seven or eight other lunatics, in order that they might find, by observation, whether she was a lunatic or not. Such a procedure is the likliest thing in the world to send a woman insane. Supposing any one of us were taken to such a place. There might be a complaint or a suggestion by the police that one was not quite compos mentis when taken to the workhouse, and put into a ward where all our clothes would be taken from us, and we would be put among six or seven lunatics, some of them raving, in order that the doctor might ascertain whether or not one was a lunatic. I am making no complaint against the police. What I am drawing attention to is the system of workhouse administration which enables anybody merely on suspicion to be put into a ward, as was this unfortunate lady. Her statement goes on to say:— At 8 p.m. the lunatics came into the room, and night was made hideous by their ravings, one being put into a padded cell. I did not sleep. Next morning, before dawn, I was given coarse workhouse clothing, and after breakfast saw the doctor, who asked me why I had gone to Scotland Yard, and I told him. Afterwards I was permitted to write three letters to my friends, having been assured by the nurses that the police were bound to communicate with my friends and make the proper investigation. This lady went in on the 15th and was there until the 18th, when a lady, her friend, came to see the doctor, and on the 18th she was taken out of the observation ward, the doctor and magistrate finding that she was not insane in any sense whatever. But the case does not rest simply and solely on this unfortunate lady's own statement. I have not seen her, nor have I been able to see her, because she has gone to Italy, where she is living, naturally being frightened after what occurred to her. I may state that I am not professionally interested in this case, and that I have taken it up because a very well-known gentleman in London, who was greatly touched by her treatment, asked me to bring it before the House of Commons. Mrs. Close sent two letters to friends. I have seen Miss Rose Gordon Hake, a cousin of the well-known General Gordon Hake. This lady received a letter from Mrs. Close three days after that lady was taken to the workhouse infirmary. Miss Gordon Hake went to see Mr. Ramsden, a magistrate for Devonshire, and they went down to the workhouse infirmary to see this lady, against whom there was no charge whatever except that the police thought that she was not of sound mind. Miss Hake in her statement says:— We arrived at the workhouse and were shown into the observation ward, where we found Mrs. Close dressed in workhouse garb, with her hair unkempt, as the result of a bath she had previously had, with no facility for putting it in order again, in the company of seven or eight more or less lunatics. One of them was perfectly obviously a raving lunatic, walking up and down the room, swearing, spitting, etc. … … Mr. Ramsden and I then went round to an adjoining building to see the doctor, who was quite courteous, and told us it was clear a mistake had been made, but that it was very foolish of Mrs. Close to have troubled herself about spy-hunting. …. I then agreed that I would come back at half-past four to vouch for Mrs. Close, and see the magistrate. I came back, and before the magistrate came saw Mrs. Close in the ward, and sat there with her from half-past four till nearly six, before her turn came to see the magistrate. While there I heard cries and moans proceeding from the padded room, which adjoined the dormitory, the ravings from the lunatic confined there being continuous and horrible. Mrs. Close informed me that this kind of thing had gone on while she was there particularly during the two nights: and while I was there the woman who was cursing and raving had to he taken away by two nurses. After that she was seen by the magistrate and taken home by her friend. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board asked me what complaint I had against the guardians. It is against the guardians or against the system, and my object is to ensure that the sufferings of this lady, and the indignities to which she was subjected, shall have at least the good effect of leading to arrangements in future which will secure that anybody who gets into the hands of the police, like this lady, as a suspected lunatic, will receive different treatment. I am accepting, for the moment, the case put against this lady, though after her three days' detention it was proved that she was perfectly sane; but assuming the case was correct, my complaint is that anyone suspected to be a wandering lunatic should be taken to a place where he would receive quite different treatment from that which this lady suffered, and should not be put into a ward with seven or eight lunatics. Not merely on the evidence of Mrs. Close, but on the evidence of Miss Gordon Hake, I ask my right hon. Friend whether this is not a case which should receive attention? I am not bringing it in any hostile spirit, and this is the only opportunity we have to put a case of this kind before the House of Commons. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman, instead of saying that there was no complaint against the guardians, would have at once stated that if the facts I have put before him were correct—and I submit that there is no possibility of doubt as to the correctness of the facts, and after she got to the workhouse ward there is no dispute whatever as to the facts—a mistake had been made, that such a thing would not be allowed to occur again, and that when people were brought in by the police under such circumstances they would in future be put into a separate room, where they would be taken care of, and where they would be seen by their friends, instead of being locked up for three days, which this lady was.

Mr. CROOKS

The hon. and learned Member has brought a charge against the Workhouse officials, but this matter has nothing whatever to do with the Local Government Board. The observation ward is licensed by the Home Office. This lady was put under three days' detention under police order, and at this institution she was stripped and bathed and examined by a medical officer in the usual way, and was discharged after three days. It should be remembered that her position might have been worse had she been left to wander about in an excited state, getting into serious trouble. If the hon. and learned Member would join with some of us in trying to get a private receiving house for such cases, where it is uncertain whether a person is a lunatic or not, he would do far more good than by bringing forward a case of this kind. This lady is well off, but there can be no difference of treatment whether the woman be rich or poor. The police have no place to which they can take either a man or a woman in circumstances such as those which have been stated, except it is a place licensed by the Home Office. I rose, however, for the purpose of calling attention to the fact of the marvellous progress made by the Local Government Board within the last nine or ten years. Years ago I used to call attention to the treatment of pauper children, with a view to avoiding the idea that once a pauper always a pauper. The right hon. Gentleman, now the President of the Local Government Board, laid the foundation of the better treatment of young children, and if a system is properly managed and supervised it has a chance. In previous Debates it used to be said that there were nothing like scattered homes with a foster-mother to look after the children; but those homes became little workhouses, containing as many as sixteen children, and they called that home "just like a workman's home." I know workmen's homes, but I do not know of any workman's home with sixteen children under twelve years of age in it. What marvellous proof we have of the enlightened treatment of the child! In every department nowadays, instead of being called a "wicked little cub," or something of that sort—

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