§ The Board of Trade may make regulations fixing the increase in the price of coal sold in any place in quantities of less than two hundredweight over the price of the same coal sold at the same place and time by the ton.
§ Clause brought up, and read the first time.
§ Mr. DICKINSONI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
In view of the decision that the first Clause which stands on the Paper in my name was outside the scope of the Bill, I may be allowed to express considerable regret that it has not been possible for that reason to bring to the notice of the House a scheme which would have had a very great effect in enabling purchasers in London and elsewhere to obtain coal at low prices. No more can be said about that, but it is an additional argument which I venture to put before the House in support of the Clause which now I am allowed to move. The Clause as it appears on the Paper differs from the Clause which I moved in Committee, and if its drafting is not exactly as it should be that is due to the fact that it had to be drafted in the course of a few minutes after the Committee stage, when everybody thought that the Report stage was going to be taken on the following morning, and that therefore all Amendments would have to be put on the Paper at once. While I apologise for the form of the new Clause, yet in bringing this subject once again before the House may I say that one of the principal causes, if not the principal cause, of the dissatisfaction which led to the appointment of the Committee on low prices was the fact that among the very poorest of our population, especially among the very poorest in London, last winter the prices of coal were rushed up to a figure which was absolutely exorbitant. When speaking in the Committee I ventured to make use of the expression "a political fraud," and though I did not say that the Bill was a political fraud, as in itself I do not consider it to be so, yet I did say this, and I adhere to it:—
If this Bill goes forward in the shape in which it now is the Government will be considered to have fathered a political fraud. …. If the public, in the course of next winter find, as I believe they will certainly find, unless this Amendment is carried, that 2160 they are not in a better position than they were last year, they will say the whole thing has been a fraud."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd July, col. 1767.]I still believe that to be the case, and if this Bill goes forward as it is at present, without any definite provision of the kind affecting the sale of coal in small quantities by hawkers among the poor, and the prices go up to 38s., 40s., and 45s. per ton, as they did last winter, I feel certain, judging from the number of letters which I have received on the subject during the last two or three days since the subject began to be discussed, that the public will say that they have been absolutely misled by the promises of the Government with regard to the prices of coal. This matter was raised early in the year, and very much was said in the Debate on the prices of coal and food with regard to the exorbitant prices which the poor were suffering from, and when this question came before the Committee that point was considered, and they expressively say—We also recommend that the Government should at once consider the question of inviting the London County Council to arrange that the council itself, and any other public bodies which already possess or can secure the necessary facilities should during the coming summer acquire and, so far as possible, store within easy roach of London large stocks of household coal to be sold during the winter at prices and under conditions to be fixed in consultation with the Government to the traders engaged in supplying small consumers. Such a step would, we believe, have a salutary effect in steadying prices.It is the case of the small consumer about which I am most concerned throughout this discussion, and it is with the object of benefiting the small consumer that I put down this proposal, which I have some slight hope that the Board of Trade may accept. The Government have brought in a Bill to fix the increase in the price that is to be paid for coal by the purchaser at the pit-mouth as compared with the price of 1913. They have also gone further, as was announced by the President of the Board of Trade on the Second Beading of this Bill, because they have entered into agreements with merchants in London by which an additional sum—the figure has never yet been stated, but I believe it to be 7s. 6d.—is to be allowed to the merchants at which to sell over and above the price which they have to pay for the coal at the London depot. So there is the 4s. at the pit-mouth, then there is the freight, and then there is this margin which has to be added in the case of all coal in London sold to the ordinary consumer. But those agreements do not and cannot regulate the additional price which will be put on the coal hawked among the poor.2161 As far as I am able to see, the poor people of London, and I believe elsewhere, are really to be left not only to the mercy of the coal merchants—many I have no doubt will adhere to their undertaking—but also to the mercy of the hawkers, who it would appear have no obligation placed upon them at all. May I point out once again that, during the three months in which the rapid rise of coal took place, to the ordinary householder the price in February was 7s. over and above the price in November, but the hawkers at that time raised the price to the poor, by increases, from 11s. 4d. to almost 17s., so that the enormous increase which took place in the price of coal really fell on the very poor. The reason is that the very poor are always living on the verge of famine prices, and the moment any difficulty occurs, whether it be in coal or anything else, the poor man suffers. The poor man cannot buy more than half a hundredweight or a hundredweight of coal at a time, for he is a person who is living from hand to mouth, and he has to purchase at whatever price he can. It is for that reason that any shortage falls immediately and with the greatest heaviness upon the very poorest of the people. I regret that the Board of Trade has not seen its way to do more in this direction than it has' done. That it can be prevented I am certain.
Last winter in many parts of London, when coal was being hawked at 38s. 4d. a ton in those districts where the poor people dwell, coal at 26s. 8d. was being supplied by various charitable institutions and others at the rate that the ordinary well-to-do consumer paid for his coal. The Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, of which we hear so much, through its committee have, all through this winter, provided coal for the wives of soldiers and sailors upon their paying 1s. 4d. a hundredweight, which is about 26s. a ton. The woman who pays the 1s. 4d. gets a ticket and goes to the coal merchant, where she is able to get her coal with the ticket. Under this course of business the coal merchant is sure of his money, his dealing with the coal is simplified, and in this way the poor can be saved from this exorbitant system of charges by hawkers, about which we have heard so much during the last year, t believe something could be done in this direction; but if this House leaves the Bill as it stands, and gives no one any authority to deal with this question, I do not see how anything is going 2162 to be done. Therefore I suggest that it we could give the Board of Trade power to at any rate limit the amount of the additional price to be put upon the sale of coal in small quantities, I believe it would have a very desirable effect. If it be said that it is impossible to do that, then we have done our best, but if something can be done, the Board of Trade, I have no doubt, will give us their aid to carry it through.
I apologise to the House for spending so much time on this particular question, but I submit that, by merely giving the Board of Trade power to make regulations, we shall be doing, no harm and may be doing a great deal of good. The London County Council, as I pointed out in Committee, have made a by-law for regulating the sale of coal in small quantities. The by-law imposes the obligation upon the hawker to show upon a board fixed to his cart the price o£ coal, it may be 35s. a ton or whatever the charge may be, and by the by-law he is not allowed to sell the coal by any kind of subterfuge for more than that amount. But there is no by-law to regulate the figure put on the board fixed to the cart, and I believe, if the Board of Trade had that power, that it might regulate in London the price at which the hawkers would be allowed to hawk the coal I earnestly ask the President of the Board of Trade not to refuse this merely discretionary power which I suggest should be bestowed upon his Department, and I believe a great thing for the poor people in the coming winter could in this way be accomplished, while very likely it would avoid a good deal of dangerous agitation, which I feel certain would occur if the price next winter should be anything like the figure to which it reached last winter.
§ Mr. GLYN-JONESI beg to second the Motion.
Representing, as I do, one of the poorest of the East London constituencies, I should fail in my duty if I did not urge the Government to accept my right hon. Friend's Amendment. My right hon. Friend stated that those who have fairly large salaries can to a large extent protect themselves from the ordinary advance of winter prices. There are very few of my Constituents who can do that. But I am not at the moment urging the case of people who can even buy a ton of coal at one time; I am asking consideration for a class of people whom I am sure the 2163 Government will try; to help, and I believe the House would desire that it should do so. It is quite a common sight in the winter to see little children carrying seven pounds or fourteen pounds of coal for which they have been sent to the coal dealer in some back street or slum. All that this particular Amendment does is to say that if the Government cannot fix a retail price at which coal shall be sold by the ton, at any rate let them, where the price per ton is fixed by the ordinary methods of competition, step in and say that the rate of increase for the small quantities shall not be above a certain scale.
These poor people cannot help themselves. It is deplorable that they are being compelled to buy their coal, as many of them buy the necessaries of life, in driblets. All this is deplorable enough, but when you consider that advantage is taken of their extreme poverty to make an increased profit out of them because they are not able to buy two or three hundredweights or a ton at a time, I do think that the House will see that there ought to be protection for these people. The Government, at any rate, have dealt with the main problem, the big difficulty, in regard to the maximum price at the pit-head, but, in view of the facts I have stated, the proposal which is now made is no very heroic thing which the Government is called upon to do, nor a very difficult thing, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that it would be a very useful help for these poor people, who are really deserving of all the assistance we can give them. I shall be told, perhaps, by some hon. Members that it is an impossible thing to do, and that these small hawkers or small coal dealers in these poor constituencies will find some other way of getting the increased percentage of profit out of them. I do not think that is any legitimate excuse for not doing this much, at any rate, for these poor people, who have to pay these large prices all over London. It has been suggested that the hawker would say: "If you only have 14 lbs or 28 lbs. or half a hundredweight, I will get an extra sixpence for bringing it to your door, or lifting it off the cart." The ingenuity of these poor people will, at any rate, run to this: that they will send their children, as they do now, to carry the coal from those small coal yards. I hope that the Government will not, 2164 because they cannot do more than this, decline to accept the proposal of my right hon. Friend. I beg to second.
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman)The object which my hon. Friends have in view is undoubtedly a good one, and if it were possible to help those whom they represent, in this House, by the adoption of this Clause, I should certainly be one of the first to support it. The Clause itself does not provide any machinery for carrying out the obligation which is placed upon the Board of Trade. But I do not criticise it on those grounds, for its object is one with which we all sympathise, and the only question is how far that object can be carried out by this proposal. The case of the small purchaser who buys small lots, practically by the pail or scuttle, has always been difficult, not only because they are the victims of those with whom they trade, and here I would say in passing, that all the traders are not to be put in the same category, but victims of their own habit. Panic in the demand for coal is by no means unknown amongst the large consumers. Directly we get cold weather in London there is, by a great part of the population which is not provident, and have no means whereby it can be provident, a rush for the moment to pay almost anything to get a coal supply. This was a case that was brought before the Committee presided over by Mr. Vaughan Nash. They spent a good deal of time on that Committee in trying to deal with this particular case, because of the extreme necessity, and that Committee were certainly as benevolently-minded as this House, and they came to the conclusion, after examining the case, that it was impossible to give relief effectively to those poor purchasers, by means of fixing maximum prices, and they said so in their Report. The very first paragraph of that section of the Report which provides us with recommendations, declares that they could not recommend that maximum prices should be fixed, I presume for this or for any other class. That is not the view of my right hon. and learned Friend who proposed and of my hon. Friend who seconded this Clause. I put to them one or two of the difficulties which seem now and seemed to the Committee insurmountable. The first is that the only way in which this could be made effective would be for the Board of Trade itself to deal with the case of every district in London, and it is quite conceivable it might be 2165 necessary to deal with the case of almost every street in London. But even when they had dealt with it, and arrived at what they thought to be a fair price for the scuttle of coal, they would be faced with the constant difficulty of having to follow the hawker from door to door before they knew whether he was or was not adopting the regulation. It was because of the impossibility of dealing with the small coal trade in that way that the Committee were not prepared to recommend maximum prices, even for the relief of those small consumers.
§ Sir A. MARKHAMThe Committee also reported against dealing with maximum prices for large consumers.
§ Mr. RUNCIMANYes, they did, for the retail trade, but they did not report against regulations at the pit-head. The effect of this proposal, as it is now on the Paper, and as it is commended by the right hon. Gentleman, if it were passed and the price fixed by the Board of Trade were too low, might lead to whole districts being deprived of the advantage (and there is some advantage), of sale in email quantities. Indeed, one of the dangers of dealing with retail maximum prices is that in the effort to cut down prices for small consumers and purchasers we may do the next worst thing, or perhaps worst of all, namely, prevent the supply reaching the district at all, and the Committee had that also present in their mind. If they came to the conclusion that this is not the best way of dealing with the situation, I fear I must accept their view. I should not be prepared to leave the case there. When the Committee reported I at once put myself into communication with the London Counts' Council, and, for reasons which they thought good, they ultimately decided that they themselves could not and were not prepared to establish depots. There is another suggestion which my right hon. and learned Friend had down on the Paper, but which does not come within the scope of this Bill, namely, that offices for the sale of coal in small quantities in every Metropolitan borough or within the Metropolitan police district might be provided. It is not in order to discuss that proposal now, but that certainly would have been one of the ways of dealing with the sale of coal by providing for its distribution, and that is really the serious matter before us, over the areas where it is most needed. Indeed, if the sale of coal could properly be placed under control, 2166 I know of no other or better way of dealing with it than that.
4.0 P.M.
In this Bill we cannot insert a Clause of that nature, but I think it is as well to let the House know what some of the largest of the coal distributors have undertaken to do in conference with me quite recently. They are concerned mainly with the large consumer, and the small consumer, for their purposes of organisation practically does not pay. Men who are dealing with an enormous quantity of coal cannot be bothered with the detailed organisation for distribution, scuttle by scuttle, or from door to door, nor are their depots in the districts where the demand is most insistent. These large purchasers who control such an important portion of the supply in London have both written and told me that they are prepared, should occasion arise—that is to say, if coal goes up in price unduly during the coming winter—to open in the poorer parts of London shops which will do for the poor people what the depots do for the better-to-do. The well-to-do classes are amply provided for in practically every district, but unless there are shops where the poor people can drop in and get the scuttle of coal they can buy, they must be driven into the hands of the hawker. Those merchants to whom I refer are prepared, with the help of others engaged in the trade, and in many cases with the help of philanthropic societies, to open coal shops in those poorest districts; and although it may be a different manner of business from that which they have been conducting in the past, I am sure I should be glad to hear that they had greatly extended the distribution of coal for which they are responsible in those poor districts. The poor are much safer in the hands of large merchants, who have a name to keep up, than in the case of the individual dealer who may not care a rap about his reputation, so long as he can get rid of his cartload of coal. That is one of the ways in which I hope some relief will come to the poor in London. But the Committee itself, when it went into the question, believed that it could only dominate prices in London effectively by controlling the price at the source of supply, and that is what the Bill attempts to do. Any attempt to fix retail prices by this House or by the Board of Trade or by any other legislating authority would I fear be futile, and would not attain the object which my hon. Friends have in view. I think it is 2167 in other directions that we must seek relief from the hawker troubles which were present in the minds of my hon. Friends. In so far as we keep down the pit-head price, I have no doubt some of the benefits will trickle through to the poorer portions of the community. I fear it would not be useful to any of us if we accepted the Clause as it has been moved, and I hope my hon. Friends will be satisfied for the present with other means of dealing with the question.
§ Sir E. CORNWALLAs far as I am concerned, I should welcome the adoption of this Clause by the Board of Trade. It is on all fours with the voluntary arrangement and agreement which the leading coal merchants of London have made with the Board of Trade, and that being so there can be no objection to it so far as I am concerned. In fact, I am not sure that it would not be helpful to those merchants if the duty were placed upon the Board of Trade, and the public knew that the Board, of Trade was sharing with us the anxieties and responsibility of regulating the price of coal for the small consumer. A very natural surprise exists throughout London at the variety of prices for the small consumer. It is rather extraordinary that in the Metropolitan area there should be such varying prices. As I told the House on other stages of the Bill, the cost of coal in the different districts of London varies to the extent of 3s. a ton. You get two workmen on a job, one buying his coal at King's Cross and the other at Streatham or Croydon. The King's Cross man has to pay so much a hundredweight, while the Streatham man may have to pay 2d. a hundredweight more. The man who lives at Streatham does not know what the railway rate is, and he thinks that he is being robbed to the extent of 2d. a hundredweight by somebody. My experience of the public is that while there is always a genuine objection to paying high prices for anything the thing that offends them more than anything else is the feeling that they are being robbed, overcharged, or exploited by the people who are sending them goods, whether coal, meat, or anything else. If you could have something which would give confidence to the people outside that these difficulties were being met by the Board of Trade and the coal merchants concerned, I think it would relieve public anxiety to a considerable extent.
Perhaps I might explain what really happens in regard to the sale of coal by 2168 small quantities. First of all, there are the trolleys which are sent out throughout London by the principal merchants. That trade has developed during the last twenty years. Previous to that, all coal sold in small quantities was sold by people called dealers. People who lived in London twenty years ago will remember that coal merchants, greengrocers, and a large number of that type of traders existed in London, and were called dealers. They came to the merchant's depot, bought coal, and were the means of distribution to the small consumers. About twenty years ago competition started amongst the leading coal merchants. One firm saw an opportunity of entering into a trade which the other large coal merchants were not doing, and they put upon the streets of London a large number of trolleys. The other coal merchants had to do the same thing in competition. So this trade by trolleys arose from competition amongst the coal merchants themselves, and they have done during the last twenty years a large trade in coal by the hundredweight and half-hundredweight. The men who take out these trolleys are paid so much a ton. It used to be 2s. a ton altogether. Then a question rose about wages. I do not think there was a strike, but there was a controversy about wages, and it was agreed that the men should have 2d. a ton more for every penny per hundredweight that the coal went up in price. The result is that when coal is 1s. 9d. or 1s. 10d. a hundredweight, as it was last winter, and I am afraid in some cases is now, the wages these men get is really a great deal more than was originally intended, and it seems to me rather too high, being about 3s. 6d. a ton. When a man under his trade union rate of wages gets 3s. 6d. a ton on the coal sold on his trolley, it very much increases the price of coal. It is only fair to the men to say that they do not put the whole of that into their pockets. These men trust their customers. They leave coal at a house, then misfortune comes to the customer, and they do not get their money. If you said to a trolley-man, "You have earned a lot of money; you have sold so many tons of coal, and you get 3s. 6d. a ton," he might fairly answer, that he had lost so much in bad debts. You cannot ascertain exactly what a man earns, and you cannot say positively that he earns more than he is entitled to for his work.
Then there is another side to the question. The man does not earn so much as 2169 might be thought; neither does the merchant. The merchant can only keep his round of trolley-men by sending trolleys up and down the streets in the summer at a considerable loss. If he did not do so the men would not have a round in the winter. This is not a trade that the coal merchants are very anxious to maintain, although of course we want to maintain our tonnage. At the same time, it is a trade that has grown up. With regard to the price of the coal sold on trolleys by responsible merchants, it has been said that last winter, when there was a famine in coal, the trolley-men were not satisfied with the price at which the merchant sent the coal out, and they asked for more money. That may or may not have been the case. I am afraid it was so in some cases, but it would not be fair to charge the whole of the trolley-men with it. To meet that difficulty the London County Council have made a by-law, which comes into force almost at once, making it obligatory on coal merchants to place on the trolley an enamel plate bearing the price at which the coal has been sold. That is to be a fixed price, and it will be an offence if the men charge more than the amount there displayed. That will be some protection for next winter which we had not last winter.
That is one method of supplying the small consumer. But there are a certain number of the old dealer class still left, and they are found, as my right hon. Friend has realised in going into this question, more in the poorest districts. They have remained in the poorer districts more than in the better-class neighbourhoods of London. Under them you get coal-sheds—I do not believe they are very numerous in London, but where they do exist it is a real hardship for the poor. When you take the whole Metropolitan area, and talk about the price paid by the poor for coal to these coal-sheds or small dealers, it would be wrong for the House to form the impression that a very appreciable quantity of coal is involved. It is a very small quantity indeed. I am not saying that in order to ask the House not to deal with that small quantity. I simply want the House to understand that it is not a large volume of trade. There is all the more reason, if it is a small volume of trade, that somebody should do something to remove the evil which exists. If the President of the Board of Trade had seen his way to accept the Clause as far as we as I merchants are concerned, we would have 2170 welcomed the intervention and co-operation of the Board of Trade. I apologise for speaking in this House about my own business. I have been in the House for ten years, and hon. Members who know me will agree that I have never, until this Bill came forward, spoken in reference to my own business or my own affairs. But I thought it my duty to the House on this occasion to do so. Speaking on behalf of the London coal merchants as far as I have any influence or control over what is to be done, I can only say that we shall be but too glad to put our minds to work in reference to this matter, quite apart from whether there is a gain or a loss. The quantity is so small, so far as the large merchants are concerned, that the question of profit or loss should not be considered.
I think the leading coal merchants will be well-advised if, after the Debates in this House, and after public attention has been drawn to this question, they undertake the responsibility of going to the various poor districts in London, and setting up in each of those districts some establishment under their own control where poor persons who have to buy small quantities of coal can buy them without the cost of the trolley-men's wages and other items which belong to the ordinary sales. Coal merchants will be well-advised if they apply their minds to this matter, and arrange to have some scheme which will prevent this question from ever rising again as a black spot in the distribution of coal in this Metropolis. I hope the House will see that we share the anxieties of everybody with regard to this question. We should have welcomed the insertion of this Clause in the Bill, but, failing that, everything we can do—at any rate, everything I can do—shall be done in the direction desired by my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson).
Mr. PERCY HARRISI am informed on good authority that coal is being sold to the poor in Fulham to-day at 1s. 9d. a cwt., which is 35s. a ton. That was the price ruling, I believe, in January last, and if that is a sign of what we are to expect next winter we have a very serious situation to face. I hope that if the right hon. Gentleman is not able to accept this Clause, at any rate he will not treat the Report of the Departmental Committee as being the last word on the subject, but will realise that it is urgently necessary that something should be done to meet the 2171 hard case of London. The Departmental Committee have pointed out that the position of London in the matter of coal supply is peculiar. That peculiarity consists in this very unpleasant fact, that for reasons explained by the Committee, in times of scarcity London is the worst sufferer, and this further unpleasant fact, that while all London suffers badly the poorest in the community are hit hardest. That is mainly due to two causes. First of all, that they have no storage accommodation, and, in the next place, it is due to the very expensive system under which coal is distributed in London. Obviously it costs a great deal more to hawk a ton of coal round a large number of streets than if the customers purchased in larger quantities the amount of which was ascertained in advance. As, unfortunately, we are not able to discuss the Clause that my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras wished to propose, I hope that the President of the Board of Trade, as he referred to it sympathetically, will, at any rate, try to see whether some arrangement cannot be arrived at by which this very heavy cost of distribution in London may be reduced. There was one passage in the Report of the Departmental Committee which really speaks volumes. It said that—
During last winter the poor simply could not pay the prices that were demanded.When we realise what that means, and the consequent suffering—and those of us who are London Members are obliged to witness it—I think we must admit that every possible means should be utilised in order to try to prevent anything like equal suffering in the coming winter. I just make these observations in the hope—and I feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman will give full consideration to this matter, for he is, I believe, in full sympathy with the desire and with what we have said—that some useful and practical step will be taken.
§ Mr. ROWLANDSAs a member of the Departmental Committee I apologise to the House for my absence, which was unavoidable, during the Debates on this Bill. The speeches which we have heard, the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras, and the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, has shown the grave importance of the issue which is now before the House. I quite agree with the statement of the President 2172 of the Board of Trade that the Departmental Committee did not try to fix a maximum price. First of all, we had mainly in our minds the larger question of the larger supply, and we also had put before us evidence and statements similar to those made by the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Sir E. Cornwall) as to the varying cost over the area, of Greater London, and the difficulty, therefore, of fixing one maximum price for the whole of that area. But I do not think that the President of the Board of Trade quite did the Committee justice in his résumé of the position at which they arrived. The right hon. Gentleman told the House that we had not fixed, or did not suggest, a maximum price for small quantities for London. But we did make so far as we could a distinctive proposition in our recommendations in connection with the necessity of something being done for these small supplies. Our recommendation may have been very crude in its character, but at least it pointed out that something would have to be done, unless we were going to be face to face with one of the gravest difficulties conceived of in regard to the supply of coal amongst the poorer people of the Metropolis, and other places of a similar character, during the ensuing winter.
Our recommendation was that steps should at once be taken—and I do not forget that we signed our Report far back in March—to consider, in consultation with public bodies, the question of the accumulation by such bodies of a reserve of coal in or near London for the use of the small consumers during this winter. It will be seen that our recommendation really probably covers the proposition of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson). He has indicated some machinery in his new Clause. We simply made a general proposition. But at bottom we distinctly stated that we—the whole of us—were convinced of the necessity that something definite must be done for the people who were likely to suffer in the ensuing winter—with coal at the price which they could not buy it; and that they ought not to be jockeyed as they were last winter and the beginning of this year. I am not going to put the blame upon the hawkers, because come of them are as honest as anyone else, or the trolley-men, but we urged that the poor should not be jockeyed by taking some substance supplied to them as coal, at the highest possible price, the burning qualities of which were very poor 2173 indeed. I ask, under these circumstances, whether it is not possible for something to be done, or indicated, that would alleviate the difficulty. I have had information from the Board of Trade to the question which I put yesterday. I am glad that they did, as the right hon. Gentleman has told us to-day, approach the London County Council and that the London County Council said that they could not deal with the matter. It will be seen that by local authorities taking up and obtaining a reserve, the whole question of fixing the price could be settled, according to the cost of taking it to their various localities; you would not have a flat rate fixed, irrespective of the cost in any direction.
The right hon. Gentleman has done much, in my opinion, outside the scope of this Bill in, if I may say so, bringing some rational consideration to the minds of those concerned in the coal trade, and he indicated to us now, as reported to us by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green, that there is in the minds of the merchants some idea that something could be done. How far, could he tell us—I should like it to be a little more fully stated—are the merchants going on the lines indicated by the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green. If we can have the assurance that they are going to meet this difficulty in a rational manner, I think that the House will be satisfied, and if it is met in that way it would suit quite as well as by legislation. I hope something will arise out of this Debate—not necessarily this Clause—which will impress, not only the community at large, but those interested in the coal trade, with the necessity of grappling with this grave and serious problem: otherwise, listening as we did to the evidence given to us by the various witnesses in respect to London and large places like London, we shall have a very serious problem to face in the ensuing winter.
§ Sir S. COLLINSThe House was very glad to hear, and the outside public, and especially the very poor, that a decision has been taken, and that it is proposed to establish depots by the largest distributors of coal throughout London. We were very glad to hear the statement of the hon. Member for Bethnal Green that he will give this scheme his hearty support. I am sure he will, from what I know of him personally, and the work he has done in connection with the poor, and the distribution of coal, when he was a Member, with the hon. Member who has spoken on the 2174 other side, of the London County Council. With all due respect, however, to the hon. Member for Bethnal Green, I rather think he is not quite right when he said that there are not so very many now of those small distributors. I have had a little experience of that even in my own Constituency, and more so in the East End of London, and many other of the very crowded parts. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of poor people from cellar and garret who are continually, day after day, buying their coal in these very small quantities of 10 lbs. and 14 lbs.
I could not help feeling rather amused when the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade just now gave us that picture of the poor people rushing, possibly in their thousands, and running up the price of coal to panic prices. It is very, very different from that. The panic with them is to find the few coppers to buy the coal. That is their difficulty. There is no danger of those poor people running up the prices. The trouble with them is to find the money to buy coal in the small portions which they have to buy it in year by year. I trust, from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, that we are going to have these depots by the large distributors, and that this difficulty will soon be taken in hand; if not the poor people will suffer from the extortionate prices as they have suffered. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Clause lacked the machinery necessary to carry it out. The right hon. Gentleman, after all, has himself the ingenuity, and could find the machinery, especially when he seems to speak sympathetically about the Clause. If the only difficulty is that it lacks machinery I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that he will, in conjunction with the Member for North St. Pancras, set up the machinery, and so pass the Clause. If we do that, and we also have these large depots by the distributors, it will, I am sure, do very much to lighten the burdens of the oppressed poor in London, who will be able to get their coal in this coming winter without having to pay extortionate and even famine prices. I heartily support the adoption of this Clause.
§ Mr. BOOTHI am afraid that this Clause is being considered by the various speakers as if it were only a London Clause. I presume if it is passed it will apply equally to my Constituency as to the Metropolis. [An HON. MEMBER: 2175 "Hear, hear!"] Very well, then, at present the discussion has been almost monopolised by London Members, and there has been some talk about some London Commission. There has been, so far as I know, no desire expressed throughout the country for any such scheme as this; and what I am perfectly clear about is that it will neither work in London nor in the provinces.
§ Sir S. COLLINSThe London Members have supported it up till now.
§ Mr. BOOTHExactly, and the London Members supporting it up to now have only spoken of London. I quite agree the London Members proposed it, but they were proposing a Clause which will apply to the whole of England, for you are not suggesting its non-application out of London. After all, would it work in the country as well as in London? How will a Clause like this work in the agricultural districts? I represent a little borough which is in the position of having agricultural districts adjoining the colliery area, and I have been trying to think, as well as I could, while the speakers have been busy, how this Clause can possibly apply to the West Biding of Yorkshire. I have given it up. In my opinion it cannot be done. The hon. Member who brought in the Clause made no attempt to show how it could do so. There is an utter failure to deal with the rest of the country. I would, if I may, without any impertinence, even take the London Members upon their own ground of London. I submit the Clause would not work at all in London. Hon. Members seem to think that they need but come to this House and plead for the poor of London. They need not do that. The House is not hard-hearted. We have heard that something should be done for the poor of London. What we are anxious to hear is that the London Members have found a way to do it—some practical solution! I am afraid we have been listening in vain. I do not use those words idly.
Twenty years ago I was living in these very poor areas of London, attempting to solve this problem. It was with us twenty years ago. I have been listening to London Members, and they have made no progress upon this subject. Exactly the same problem was with us when I used to discuss it with the late Hugh Price Hughes, who lived in St. Pancras himself. We tried to find a solution. Hugh Price Hughes was driven to the co-operative 2176 system. It was clear to us that you could not solve the problem except by some system of voluntary co-operation on the part of the working people themselves. I do not know whether he was right or wrong, but at any rate he had a constructive suggestion to make. I have not heard one from the House. I found twenty years ago, and I dare say it is true to-day, that within a mile and a half of this House coal was charged as much as 1½d. a hundredweight difference in two adjoining courts. It is not a question of the same place, or even the same street. You get two courts of the same street where totally different prices are charged. That was one of the troubles with which we were met. It did not only apply to coal. The people were buying cooked food from stalls and little shops in those courts at double and treble the price for which they could have bought the articles clean, fresh and raw, if they had taken the trouble to cook it themselves. I only mention this to show that the problem is a large one, and it has been with us ever since there was a London. I do impress upon my right hon. Friend that those who come from the provinces, and who know that this London problem is so intricate, would help if a feasible plan could be shown. I hope he will not think for a moment that we do not receive his attempts to find a solution in the best possible spirit, but the only reason we cannot support these Clauses at present is that they will not work.
There is the question of the quality of the coal. First of all, one would ask, is coal ever sold by the ton at St. Pancras or Somers Town? It is sold close by, on the siding, by the ton, but is it so sold in the narrow streets and courts of Somers Town? Even if it is sold by the ton, how will you prevent the sale of one ton or two tons at a price which will enable dealers to charge an extra price per hundredweight? I do not see anything in the Clause to obstruct that, and the ingenuity of the London dealer is second to none in the world, as everyone knows who is connected with the poor in London. Even if you overcome that difficulty, there is nothing to prove, so far as I see, that the quality of the hundredweight sold by the hawker is at all comparable with the quality of the ton. I am sorry upon these questions to have been continually somewhat of a destructive critic. It is no pleasure to me. I hope the House will consider I do it 2177 bonâ fide. I made sacrifices as a young man which very few have made in living on a very few shillings a week in a London slum and trying to battle with these problems. I have gone into the domestic credit of the very poorest, made returns upon scores and hundreds of cases, and submitted them to Hugh Price Hughes and his colleagues in connection with that work, and we were baffled again and again. I am sure the instincts of Hugh Price Hughes were right, and that unless you get some common co-operative action amongst the poor in these matters you will not get anything permanent.
The suggestion with regard to the opening of depots I was very pleased to hear, because it may make possible a suggestion I am about to make. I appeal to the large coal dealers in London that, whenever they establish one of these large retail places which are incidental to their business in one of these poor areas, they should allow it to merge into a voluntary cooperative system for the people in the district to take up. If they could establish one or two of these shops in some of these neighbourhoods where local people would come forward and let them merge into a voluntary co-operative system, where people could buy coal by the ton and distribute it amongst themselves by the hundredweight, sharing whatever profit or dividend there may be, I think that is a way in which to solve the problem in some parts of London. I put this suggestion forward in all good faith. I claim no credit for it, but heard it from Hugh Price Hughes twenty years, ago.
Mr. CHANCELLORThe suggestion which the hon. Member has just made is a very admirable one, and might solve the question in another twenty-five years or so; but we are dealing with a very urgent problem, which wants to be dealt with before the autumn comes on, and the suggestion in the proposed Clause is one which, I think, would enable the Board of Trade really to do something. The proposal is that, if in any particular district coal is being sold by the ton at a certain price, the Board of Trade could fix a margin for the distribution of smaller quantities above the price charged by the ton beyond which the coal should not be charged to the small consumer. The need for protecting the small consumer surely does not want urging; we know it already. I represent one of the poorest districts in London, and this matter comes home to me as it comes home to my Constituency, 2178 and, if it is not impossible, surely something ought to be done. The right hon. Gentleman says that this is quite impossible, and that the only thing that would make it possible—
§ Mr. RUNCIMANMy hon. Friend must have misunderstood me. I did not say it was quite impossible, but I said there was no practical value in the suggestion as put.
Mr. CHANCELLORThe right hon. Gentleman said the fixing of maximum prices would be impossible. I gather his real objection was that he did not see it was practicable, and that it would only become practicable if the deliveries were followed round by inspectors, and every sale were checked. The London County Council employ inspectors to test quality and weight, but they do not examine every delivery. They pounce upon deliveries here and there, and the effect of the liability to discovery in giving short weight or improper quality has been such as to put tens of thousands of pounds into the pockets of the poorest purchasers in London. I do not see why you need examine every delivery if the distributor knows that he is liable at any moment to be detected. It is only the exceptional man and the exceptional case where that would occur. I do not want to go into the whole question, but I do want to press on the right hon. Gentleman, the fact that we have a very large and extremely poor population in many parts of London, who do not want to wait for the evolution of a co-operative scheme such as my hon. Friend suggests, but that they want protection between now and next September. The prices already even in the summer are far higher than they ought to be, and only by fixing some limit beyond which prices shall not be charged, and by doing that in such a way as to enable the population more or less to protect themselves by knowledge of that, will we be able to protect them at this critical period. There has recently been a conference of local authorities—Metropolitan, City, and borough councils—who came to a series of resolutions, which I received this morning, the last two of which are—
That the retail distribution of coal in London should be co-ordinated by the Government; andThat the Board of Trade should themselves, or should empower the borough councils, after consultation with the Board, to advertise from time to time the reasonable price at which coal should be retailed by shopkeepers and trolley dealers.If you could make known to the occupants of small tenements the local prices beyond 2179 which charges should not be allowed, you would enable them to protect themselves by purchasing from those persons who are willing to sell at that price, and the risk of famine in certain districts suggested by the right hon. Gentleman because, of the fixing of these prices would be eliminated by the fact that the small distributors themselves have to get their living in their own neighbourhood. So long as that is so, they will find some means or other to obtain coal at the best price they can, and to sell it to those who want it at a price which, I think, the Board of Trade, if they care to take these powers, could make effective. This Clause as suggested is not obligatory. The Board of Trade may take powers; they are not compelled to use them. If they find it impossible to put them into operation, then they will not do it; but why do they refuse even to have placed in their hands the powers which may promise some amelioration of the lot of the poor? I earnestly ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he might not accept this Clause after all.
§ Mr. TICKLERI wish to associate myself with the Clause which has been proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North St. Pancras, because I think he appears to have made an honest attempt to meet the case of the poor people. The only thing to which I object in this Clause is that it only applies to the London area. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I should like to see it apply to the whole country. [HON. MEMBERS: "It does!"] I should like to see it apply to the rural districts all over the country, and if the right hon. Gentleman would be agreeable to that I would give him my whole-hearted support. I think it is a matter which requires the very serious attention of this House. At the present time we have a price of over 30s. a ton for coal in London, and we are only in midsummer, and no doubt in the near future we shall have the extravagant prices of last winter. I cannot myself see much difficulty about the distribution of this coal. If the borough councils take the matter in hand, their coal committees will be able to buy large quantities of coal and be able to arrange the distribution of these coals through the ordinary channels, the coal merchants. I should think that if you give the coal merchant a ticket to deliver coal at a certain price, and give him cash for it, there would be no difficulty whatever, and we should surmount the difficulty, which has been 2180 mentioned by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green, that many of the coal hawkers have a good many bad debts. In these cases I suppose there would be no difficulty in opening offices where coal could be ordered and a ticket given and sent on to the coal merchant to deliver coals to the various purchasers, who, of course, would pay cash for them.
I was rather disappointed to hear the President of the Board of Trade say they had come to the conclusion that the only way to regulate the price of coal was at the pit-mouth. That may seem feasible, but it does not work out in practice. Last year, when the War broke out, we had immediately from the coal merchants a notice that the state of War suspended all contracts, but if we would only let them know what our requirements were, they would endeavour to carry out our orders to the best of their ability, though they could not be bound under the con tract to fulfil the contract and to supply us with the quantity stated therein. Coals went up 12s. a ton. The consumer who got the coal could not get it in the quantity that he wanted, and he was obliged to buy at a higher price on the market because he could not get delivery of the contracts he had made. This Pill is not going to refer to contracts already made. Therefore, instead of—
Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member seems to be discussing the general principles of the Bill, and he must confine his remarks to the new Clause.
§ Mr. TICKLERI was trying to show the effect this Bill would have on the price of coal that was going to be sold after this Bill is passed, and that this exclusion of the contracts already made would prevent 20 per cent, of the people who have not contracts from obtaining any coal at all, and if they wanted to get coal they would have to pay a higher price. To regulate the price of coal at the pit-mouth is not a matter that will affect the poorest people, and that is a matter that I am anxious should be dealt with because I want to secure that the poor people in the coming winter have coal at a reasonable price, and not at the unreasonable price they had to pay last year. Some hon. Members have said that many poor people have not facilities for storing coal, but I am afraid that in a great many cases they have the storage but they have not the money. I think we ought to endeavour to make 2181 such arrangements that the poor during the coming winter will not suffer the privations which they have undergone in the past because of the high price they had to pay for coal. I think if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras would alter his Clause so as to include borough councils all over the country in England and Wales I should be glad to support it, because I think that there are a great many places where there are a large number of poor in every town, and they are all affected very seriously by the high price of coal. We want that provision as much in the borough councils and the rural district councils as in London, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way clear to include the borough councils and the rural district councils in his Clause.
§ Mr. YEOI very heartily support the position which has been taken up by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North St. Pancras, because I find it deals with the whole of England, and not with London alone. There is one aspect of the situation which I think has been lost sight of this afternoon. I feel very sorry that the London County Council did not see their way clear to take steps to store coal in London to enable poor people to get it at a reasonable price, seeing that to-day in connection with one of their contracts for over 25,000 tons of coal the difference between the price of last year and to-day is over £14,000. There are a number of other contracts which the county council is making, and I am rather disappointed that they have not seen their way clear to take steps in the direction I have mentioned, so that the public might be able to purchase from them coal at a reasonable price. Another aspect of this question is in regard to trading in small quantities. It is a well-known fact that as far as that matter is concerned people are defrauded again and again out of their proper weight. I have had cases come within my own knowledge to be dealt with on the bench of magistrates where men have actually put a 7 lbs. weight on the back of their scales when people have been purchasing small quantities, and they have received their coal less this 7 lbs.
I am one of those who believe, perhaps wrongly, that it should not be outside the power of the Board of Trade to set up a standard in London to ensure that the public should receive coals at a reasonable price by an arrangement with the coal 2182 merchants and the mine owners of this country. One case the Board of Trade could help in is where coal is retailed at 30s. or 32s. a ton by purchasing a ton, poor people should not have to pay at the rate of 40s. per ton if they buy in smaller quantities. The whole matter is in the hands of the coal owners and the large merchants in London, and if they want to show their patriotism and demonstrate that they have some interest in the poor people of the country they have an opportunity of supplying London at a reasonable price, and the poor people should not be robbed and defrauded as they constantly are in the purchase of that commodity which they can afford to purchase only with great difficulty in the coldest weather. It strikes some of us that before this season is over all the money they can earn they will want for commodities to help to keep them warm. The Board of Trade with its wisdom and power and all the knowledge it has in hand from reports ought to be able to show the country that they will not tolerate this exploiting of coal and those commodities which the people need to keep them alive.
§ Sir TUDOR WALTERSI am disappointed that the President of the Board of Trade has not been able to devise some machinery for dealing with this important question. I am persuaded, from my own experience in provincial towns, that unless there is some method of publishing fair prices, which the public may compare with the prices that are asked, or unless some maximum price is fixed, we shall have during the coming winter, not only in London but in provincial towns, cases of very severe and grave hardship. Merchants are human beings—they may be quite up to the average, but I do not think they are above the ordinary standard, and with the demand for coal probably in excess of the supply there will be a natural disposition to put up the price, especially when sold in small quantities. Very often in provincial towns you find that they have no large merchants who carry on a considerable trade, and the business is largely in the hands of small merchants, who have to buy from the large merchants. The larger merchants purchase from the collieries, and, consequently, you have the large purchaser and the sub-purchaser, and in other ways you have additional prices added to the commodities which the working men have to consume.
2183 I do not think, if the facts are carefully considered, that this House can come to the conclusion that the price of coal sold in small quantities can be left entirely to be fixed by the law of supply and demand; neither can it be left to the honesty and commercial integrity of the coal merchants, whose pockets are so much affected. I think the President of the Board of Trade would be well-advised to take some further steps beyond those he has already taken to deal with the prices charged by merchants, as well as the prices charged at the pit-head. I have listened with very great interest to the lucid explanations of this Bill given by the President of the Board of Trade, and the right hon. Gentleman has succeeded in removing many of my own objections. Nevertheless, he has not convinced me that he has understood and realised all the facts of the case. The officials of the Board of Trade, no doubt, have taken very great care to consider how best to deal with great colliery companies, and the price of coal at the pit-head, but I do not think that they have realised how complicated and widespread are the ramifications of the business connected with the distribution of coal in this country, and unless some method is adopted by which, in provincial towns as well as in London, the maximum prices are duly advertised and fixed, the difficulty will not be remedied. This is a very serious matter, and I ask the President of the Board of Trade to give a little further consideration to the matter of checking prices not only at the pit-head, but at the various sources of transit by which they finally reach the consumers.
§ Mr. ROBERT PEARCEI think this really is a sex question. The consumers who are mostly interested in reducing the cost of coal in households are the women, and I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that if he will look into the history of prices he will find that most of the reductions in all kinds of goods and commodities of every sort have been brought down to the present level by the action of the women. I think he ought to form a committee, containing among its members some of those philanthropic and benevolent ladies with whom he is so intimately acquainted, and take steps to form a committee of co-operative consumers of coal, most of the members of which should be women, and they might confer with the President of the Board of Trade and devise 2184 machinery which would bring about what we all desire in order to prevent distress during the coming winter.
§ Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.