CLAUSE 52.—(The Province of Agra.) (Hansard, 20 July 1915)

§ Sir J. D. REES
Have we passed Clause 36?

The CHAIRMAN
Yes.

§ Sir J. D. REES
I did not hear it called.

The CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member did not rise. It is not customary to take the Clauses individually, but it is usual for an hon. Member to draw attention to a Clause as it comes along if he wishes to make any observations on it.

§ Sir J. D. REES
Do I understand rightly that under this Clause 52, while it is admitted power exists, and is repeated here, to create the Province of Agra a governorship of a Governor in Council, the province of Oudh might also be added to that province, so that there is under this Consolidation Bill power to create a Governor in Council of Agra and Oudh? Do I rightly understand there is no power of creating a legislative Council because the old Act gives power to create the constitution of Governor in Council, which at the time of the Statute of 1833 referred simply to the Executive Council, legislative Councils not then being in existence? This is a point of very considerable importance, and in view of the recent action in another place with regard to the creation of an Executive Council for the United Provinces, considerable interest attaches to the construction of this Clause. I do not wish to go at length into this question. If I have stated what is correct—it is the outcome of my study of the question—I shall be glad to know that that is so from the hon. Gentleman. If not, or if he has any doubt upon the point, I would ask him kindly to consider it in connection with the amending Bill. I have not put down any Amendment, because I thought that would delay matters.

Mr. ROBERTS
The political implications in this Clause or the political inferences that may be drawn from it are not the primary subjects of consideration of it at the present moment. All that I am concerned to do is to defend the proposition that Clause 52 embodies the law as it stands. That is the point to which the Joint Committee gave particular attention, because of the fact that attention had been drawn to this Clause and the possible use that might be made of it. In the Bill as it was introduced into the House of Commons last year it was proposed that a Presidency under a Governor in Council should be constituted for the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh. On closer examination it became clear that this Clause could not apply to the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, for the very good reason that Oudh was only annexed in 1856, and that the power which gave the discretion to appoint a Governor with a Council was given in 1833 and 1823. Consequently, it was seen that this Clause could not apply to the whole of the United Provinces in any case, and for that reason Oudh was left out of the Clause.
It would be possible, of course, to alter the boundaries of Agra afterwards, but at the same time the hon. Member is quite correct in his statement that if this Clause were used and a Governor in Council was constituted for the Province of Agra, that would merely be an Executive Council. You could not, under this power, establish a Legislative Council, which, in fact, could only be constituted under later Statutes—the Act of 1861 and so on. The Joint Committee, therefore, had to redraft the Clause and pass the Clause in this form, in which it differs from the form originally proposed. That was in consequence of a closer examination of the law on this particular point. I have no doubt whatever that this Clause now correctly reproduces the law. The Joint Committee could not leave it out, although it would be almost impossible to use the power that remains without further legislation by an amending Act of Parliament. On the other hand, it is the law as it stands. It might conceivably be made the foundation of a political argument, therefore in a Consolidation Bill which does not admit of Amendments, I think the Joint Committee came to the right conclusion in leaving the Clause in this form.