ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1914–15. (Hansard, 30 November 1914)

§ Mr. JOHN WARD
I do not know what is the proper course to pursue in a matter of this kind, and whether it is possible to refer to administration in any way, or whether we are limited simply to a discussion of the amount that should be voted. But there is one matter which I would wish to take a favourable opportunity of bringing before the House, and I should like to do so now if I can do so without inconvenience to the ordinary business of the House. I wish to give utterance to a warning relating to the contracts for the Army. I expect that every Member knows that there are very ugly rumours going about relating to the subject. One does not like to speak very openly upon the matter, but I think it necessary for someone in this House to give warning to those in authority that we hope that the lesson of South Africa has been learned thoroughly and that there shall be no repetition of the scandals which then took place. Already I understand that there is a case in which proceedings are likely to be taken against a man for commandeering horses for a sum of £30 and immediately transferring them at a cost of £70 and in some cases £80. There is one point particularly which I wish to suggest. Wherever the War Office can do this work by directly commissioned officials under themselves who are liable to military discipline and control I think that they should do so. I know that there are cases where this is impossible and in which they must rely on private employers and business people to do the work for them, but wherever it is possible to appoint properly commissioned men to transact their business under their own disciplinary powers the War Office should do so. If that is done as a general rule we may avoid the scandals which hitherto have taken place in similar circumstances.

§ Mr. BOOTH
I just want in a sentence to re-echo the observations which have fallen from the hon. Member, for Stoke. I cannot 661 think that the rumours of all sorts which reach us so persistently are well-founded. But I am sure that there are very capable men, business men in this country, who thoroughly believe them to be true. Whether there is any fire or not I do not know, but there is a fair amount of smoke.

§ Mr. JAMES HOGGE
Can the right hon. Gentleman give to the House this kind of information? I remember that I myself put down a question to the Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Harold Baker) calling attention to the very point raised by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward), as to what arrangements are being made to avoid what took place in previous wars. The hon. Gentleman then told the House, in reply to that question, that adequate arrangements were made, but he did not think we ought to know what they were. Since then those matters to which the hon. Gentleman has referred have become very current. There are some things on which one might say what perhaps might be inadvisable at this time, but as to which some of us, I think, could give actual evidence. If my right hon. Friend will assure us that all arrangements are made to avoid any of those scandals which were experienced on former occasions, it will be reassuring to Members of the House.

Mr. TYSON WILSON
I would urge the War Office to exercise every care in connection with the letting of contracts. Complaint has been made in regard to the erection of huts, and I find on inquiry that some of the contractors who are erecting the huts are men of no substance whatever. They got the contracts and obtain advances of money with which to purchase material as they require it; and they absolutely ignore the ordinary conditions that apply to the carpentering trade, and the interests of the workmen under the Fair-Wages Clause. So far as the Societies of Carpenters are concerned they are doing all they possibly can to supply men to the War Office in order to get the work done, for they want to see the men removed from the tents in which they are now living to the huts; they do not want to do anything in any way to retard the erection of those huts; and I do not think that the interests of the Trade Associations or Unions who are doing all 662 they can to help the War Office, should be left to unscrupulous and speculative employers, and I hope that the Department will see to it that this does not occur, and that the work of erecting these huts will be done under proper conditions.

§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. H. J. Tennant)
I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke that it is the policy of the War Office in all circumstances, where possible, to employ their own officers and men, whether in engineering or for building huts. It will be obvious to the House, of course, that there is a very large number of cases where we have to rely upon firms employing a large number of people—such, for instance, as the purchase of clothing, and we cannot supply things like fur-lined coats and other articles, which have to be purchased through contractors, not to speak of other munitions of War. The firms, as the House is well aware, are producing what they can, and I need hardly assure hon. Members that nothing in the nature of a commission is being asked for in connection with contracts; and, indeed, if that were so, directly it was found out, ipso facto, it would disqualify the persons concerned. We do our best to discover everything which may be considered improper in the methods adopted. I can assure the House that the War Office has been seen by a large number of gentlemen only too anxious to sell socks, scarves, coats, putties, rifles, cordite, any mortal thing you like to mention, on commission, and those gentlemen went away with longer faces than when they came.
The amount of the output of the War Office in the course of the last three and a half months has been very considerable—beyond anything, indeed, we ever dreamt of. In the case of the erection of huts, for instance, we have had to go to persons who, unfortunately, have turned out to be not so substantial as we were led to expect, but I can only say that I regret it, though I think it will be understood that it is not very surprising. In point of fact, big contractors, like the firm of Jackson, have been absolutely fully employed, and I do not think that they were able to take any more contracts into their hands than those which they have actually got. But, of course, these complaints which my hon. 663 Friend has made—rather, I should say, they are not complaints so much as criticism—are of a general character. I am not complaining of that for a moment, but they are very difficult to repudiate because of their being general. If my hon. Friend will bring to the notice of those responsible for the contracts any actual grievance or any specific complaint, I need hardly say that it will be carefully investigated and reported. I do not think I need say any more.

§ Mr. KING
I waited to hear what the Under-Secretary had to say, and I do not think that his reply goes far enough. Surely what we want at this time is some special control or supervision which is not exercised or exercisable in time of peace. The late Mr. Gladstone, in one memorable passage, referred to the fact that in time of war it was quite impossible, in the very nature of things, to exercise the control, prudence, foresight, and economy which would naturally be exercised by the great spending Department in time of peace. In time of war, it seems to me, you want some new and extra supervision and control. It has been suggested in one quarter that some contracts should only be undertaken on the advice of expert committees. There are many business men—say men in the woollen trade or in the provision trade—throughout the country who are not directly interested in contracts. They know the whole state of the trade, they know the conditions, largely new and largely old, under the present circumstances, and they might, I believe, be taken into counsel by the War Office, and so give a very great deal of help.

§ Mr. TENNANT
I was not aware that my hon. Friend was going to deal with a question of that kind. I can assure him that the War Office has taken every opportunity to obtain the help, which was given most willingly and patriotically, of committees of experts in a great number of cases, in order to co-ordinate the work carried on by the Department, so that proper prices should be offered and paid, and generally to simplify the control of the business, which is intricate and specially requires that expert advice and help which it is receiving.

§ Mr. KING
That is very satisfactory. I wish to ask only one further question: Whether such Committees and such advice covers the whole ground of purchases, at any rate in the special sphere of arms and armaments, and in the general sphere of the supply of clothing and so forth? If the whole ground is covered, I am quite sure we will feel greater confidence that the possibility of extravagance and waste are precluded.

§ Mr. TENNANT
Of course, I believe that is so.