§ Resolution reported,
§ 2. "That an additional number of Land Forces, not exceeding 1,000,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, in consequence of the War in Europe, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915."
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ Mr. J. WARDThere is one observation which was not made in the general statement by the Premier the other day in connection with the great conflict in which we are engaged. We have never had any statement as to where the second million of men are to be obtained, and we want to know whether, under existing arrangements, it will be possible to get them within the time contemplated; also whether this additional million is considered sufficient for the purposes of the War. There are a good many experts fighting in the newspapers and speaking on platforms who have very grave doubts as to whether this will be sufficient, and as to whether something more will not be required. The country is prepared to give the Government carte blanche; and it seems to me that statements now will save criticism later on. For instance, it has been stated in almost an official document that there have been about a million and a-quarter of men who have joined up to a certain time, and the other day the 665 Premier stated that there had been 750,000 men who had joined the Colours. We do not know whether it is 200,000 or 400,000 who have joined the Territorials. I found on going round recruiting and advocating and trying to get the men that there is a definite wish to join the Territorial regiment if there is such a thing in existence, and the wish is to combine and organise with the men belonging to the locality as fighting units if it is possible.
§ Mr. TENNANTFor foreign service?
§ Mr. WARDYes. At a meeting at Longton, a whole body of men numbering fifty or sixty offered their services. We said we wanted them, to use the phrase commonly adopted, for Kitchener's Army. They said, "No," but that they were quite-prepared to serve with the North Staffords. Eventually, the only thing that we could prevail on these men to do was to sign for foreign service and join the reserve battalion of the North Staffordshire Territorial Regiment, the 5th North Staffords. It strikes me very forcibly that some better and more definite statement ought to be made, as to the number of men who have already joined. I take my own district. We had scarcely one battalion of the Territorials, and I believe that now we have three reserve battalions, so that the Territorials of my district have increased four times since the outbreak of War. If that is the case all the way through, there must be an enormous body that have joined for foreign service in the Territorial Army, and unless we get explicit figures the want of knowledge of that may do us injury abroad. For instance, it has been stated once in the column of the War expert of the "Times" that 1,250,000 men had joined. That is very good, but foreigners doubt it. I saw a little later on that German authorities disputed it, and did not believe that we had got a quarter of that number joined. Then the Prime Minister comes along when this Motion was before the House, and stated, that so far as the Regular Army is concerned, the number is 750,000 men. That is half a million difference between the Government and the statement of the "Times" correspondent.
I should imagine if all the districts were taken into account, that the strength of the Territorials must be certainly double what 666 it was at the outbreak of the War, and, that if we take into account all the other contingents, such as those from Canada and Australia, we have at the present time certainly a million and a half. That is my estimate, but I certainly think there ought to be some statement. I do not know whether we are going to try and get more men by present methods or by some new scheme. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks, for instance, that the circular that has been issued with regard to recruiting will have a very good effect upon producing, not the men, but the knowledge of the existence of the men, and as to whether they are prepared to go, and so on. I do think there ought to be some statement so that we may know exactly the result of our efforts as recruiting sergeants. I never dreamt when I used to advocate peace up and down the country that I was going to be reduced to a recruiting sergeant, but that is the position I have taken upon myself with the greatest alacrity and with the greatest delight in the present circumstances. Do we require considerably more men, and are we taking into proper account the names of those who have now joined the Territorial Army for foreign service and whose military organisation is just as good, I believe, for fighting purposes as that of any other branch of the Service?
§ Mr. HOGGEI do think that the House of Commons ought to have some real idea as to where we stand in the matter of recruiting, and, as to what the War Office methods are with regard to raising this extra million men. I have watched, with a great many other Members, the various posters that have been issued from the War Office. I remember that the first poster was a request for only 100,000 men, and the number has varied from time to time, so that one cannot gather from the posters how many men are required by any particular time. These are the methods by which the men are being raised. I think it is fair to say, without any disparagement to the War Office, that the boom in recruiting was stopped by the methods adopted by the War Office. It may have been necessary at the time, and I do not quarrel with it, because I think it was better not to take the men if the War Office could not deal with them, than to take them and put them into training 667 under conditions that might cause considerable regret. We have, for example, a Committee of this House consisting of the Whips of the principal parties, and that Committee is financed to some extent by a grant of money from the War Office, and recently they have issued in certain parts of the country an appeal which goes into every house. That appeal, I understand, is signed by the Prime Minister, by the Leader of the Opposition, and by the Chairman of the Labour party. It has a very official appearance in that way. I personally regret that that method has been resorted to, before we have completely satisfied ourselves that we could not get the men in the ordinary way. I think everybody will agree that if the men who desired to recruit before the height was raised have had their names taken at that time and been recruited, we should not have required such a method as sending out circulars. I do not like the method of sending out circulars. It seems to suggest that it is a kind of last resort. I am perfectly certain that the War Office will get every man they like to ask for. Those of us who know the spirit of the community which we represent, know that the request has only to be made in such a fashion as will convince those whom we are asking that the conditions to which we are asking them to respond are such as we say they are when we ask them to join.
The other point to which I want my right hon. Friend to reply is this: Are the War Office going to throw more sentiment into recruiting? I can assure my right hon. Friend that this matter is felt very keenly in many localities. I refer particularly to the presentation of Colours to the various regiments. The War Office is relying—I think confidently—on the people in various localities to help them in many ways. My right hon. Friend will agree that they have responded with alacrity. One of the many things which those responsible for recruiting have asked is that the ladies in a particular community should prepare the Colours to be presented to the regiment of that district. In some parts of the country, certainly in some parts of my own country, the ladies have actually gone the length of getting the Colours prepared. Then that order has been countermanded by the War Office. I should like the War Office really to 668 understand that the Army they are recruiting now is different from the ordinary professional Army. It is an Army for the War, and for the period of the War only. The men who are being recruited are giving up a great deal, as my right hon. Friend will agree, for the great cause in which we are all engaged. It seems to me that if such a little thing as the presentation of Colours by people territorially associated with the regiment is to be denied to that regiment the War Office, is really wrapping itself up into much red-tape. This is a matter which does not affect the efficiency of the soldiers; it makes no difference, as far as the fighting material is concerned, but it makes a very great difference in the matter of sentiment to the particular regiment which is being recruited. I hope the War Office will see that that matter is put right, so that these new regiments may have their Colours from the territory from which they have been raised.
§ Sir PHIPSON BEALE (indistinctly heard)I wish to make one suggestion with regard to the circular which has been sent out for the purpose of ascertaining the number of men available and willing to join. It is that the information asked for should be sent to the local recruiting office and not to the central body. Many people have already sent the fullest information. If you send it to the local recruiting office, you can make certain suggestions as to which men in the locality should be applied to, and you can give information which it would not be desirable to send to the central body. It is desirable that the local recruiting officer should know in which direction men can be best spared, and who are the men best suited for service. I make this suggestion because I believe that if it were adopted it would facilitate the obtaining of useful answers to the circular.
Mr. TYSON WILSONI am not quite certain that the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward) is a wise one. I do not think that we ought to show our hand too much with regard to the number of men recruited, because the information is not confined to this country. The matter requires a little consideration. Yesterday I asked the Under-Secretary of State for War a question to which I received a very indefinite 669 reply. Recruiting in some districts is not very good. I have made personal inquiries into the matter, and I find that some people seem to think that the War Office do not care a great deal whether they get the men or not. There is nothing to stimulate recruiting. It has been suggested that if military bands were employed in large centres of population, such as Birmingham, Newcastle, Leeds, and other places, it would lead to many more men joining the Colours. I was told yesterday that if the local recruiting committee communicated with the recruiting officer, and the recruiting officer had the power, they might get the military bands. I would not wait for the local recruiting committee to ask the recruiting officer to do this, that, or the other. I suggest that if the War Office have any military bands they should send them for a week or ten days into the large industrial centres.
I also asked the Postmaster-General a question with regard to local recruiting committees having, I will not say the privilege, but the right of sending circulars through the post to the homes of people in their particular districts. The Postmaster-General could not see his way to agree. The reason why I asked that this should be done was that the local recruiting committee understand the people of their particular district a great deal better than the central recruiting committee can do, and they can make a more direct appeal to them. Therefore, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will ask the Postmaster-General to grant this power to local recruiting committees. I believe that we should then get a better response in many cases than we do at present. Only last week a very large and enthusiastic meeting was held at Blackpool, and addressed by Lord Derby. His Lordship was so struck with the enthusiasm that the following week he wired to Blackpool to ascertain how many hundred men had joined the Colours as a result of the meeting. To his surprise he received a reply stating that not a single man had presented himself at the recruiting office. If this is prevalent in the North of England, or in any other part of the country, the War Office might well accept suggestions which would stimulate interest in recruiting.
§ Sir GEORGE TOULMINI would like the right hon. Gentleman to take care that no steps in the way of stopping recruiting should be taken that will discourage local sentiment. The colonel of the local Territorials at Bury appealed for recruits for his battalion, and a very large majority of the men volunteered for foreign service. Hundreds applied, and I am told that when the recruiting was stopped there were very many who were willing to join. A few moments ago I received from the colonel a specimen of the letters which he says he is receiving:—
I see your battalion has stopped recruiting. Is there no chance of getting in? Must I join another battalion and be transferred when there is a vacancy.Why should not these men have an opportunity to join the regiment, if necessary another battalion being formed. It seems to me a pity that when men are willing to come forward in this way that they should not be at once accepted. Seeing that so many of the battalion have already volunteered for foreign service, it seems to me that it might be arranged that at least the whole of those now in training in that particular division should be at the disposal of the authorities for foreign service. If necessary let there be another section for Home service for those desirous of serving. We should take advantage of the feeling that there is to allow men to go with their pals; if we do that we shall, I think, find that recruiting is improving.
§ Mr. YEOWhen the right hon. Gentleman replies I should like him to say whether his attention has been drawn to a paragraph in the daily Press this morning in relation to the Colonials who have come from South Africa to serve this country. No arrangements were made to meet them. When the men landed they were pushed hither and thither, and had to billet themselves. The War Office had promised them 4s. 6d. a day, and no arrangements had been made for that pay. May I also ask whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that in one of the best Territorial regiments over 600 uniforms had been rejected by the colonel because they were more like tissue paper than khaki clothing. These are the things which stand in the way of those of us who are interested in our country, and desire to get young men to join the Services. I am sure that these things can be very largely remedied 671 by the War Office if the War Office will put a little more heart and sympathy into the business, instead of so much red tape.
§ Mr. RAWLINSONMay I once more call the attention of the Under-Secretary to a matter which I think might be dealt with. A very large number of the recruits of Kitchener's Army at the present time are probably established either in huts or under canvas. They have endured a great deal, and I would ask whether the Under-Secretary can see his way at Christmas time to allow those men who are in England to get home for a short holiday. If this could be done, consistent with military requirements, the men and their friends would be very grateful.
§ Mr. TENNANTPerhaps I had better deal first with the matter raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent. He inquired as to what is considered to be a sufficient number of troops to carry this campaign to a successful issue. He asked me whether it was the official view that the new million of men which we are now voting would be sufficient? I am sure the House will recognise how difficult a question of that kind is to answer. All I can say is that the million of men in addition to those already serving the Crown is a very large number. My Noble Friend Lord Kitchener is making provision for the acceptance, clothing, and training of that extra million men. While the conditions of the war must necessarily change the situation from time to time, it is the official view that that number ought to be sufficient, so far as we are able to see at present, in order to crown our Army with success. The hon. Member went on to detail certain difficulties in various districts, and in particular the district of Stoke-on-Trent, with regard to local Territorial detachments. The policy up to now has been that we should have practically a duplicated Territorial Force, one battalion for Home defence and one for Foreign service. I quite recognise that recruits have come and are coming forward who are ready and anxious to make the sacrifices alluded to by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite. They have borne much hardship—I do not like to use the word suffering—but certainly great discomforts 672 and some hardships, and possibly even worse on occasions, and they have borne all these uncomplainingly. All this shows a really fine spirit. I make bold to say that most of the complaints that we have received have been made much more by outsiders than by the men themselves, possibly with the best intentions, and in order to put the matter right. Still, I maintain that the bulk of these complaints that we have received have been made not by the men actually serving but by men and women on their behalf. It is very desirable that men who are willing to make these sacrifices should be accepted, and accepted readily. I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent that if men are rejected owing to the fact that the battalion is full, that it ought to be the duty of the recruiting officer to report that fact to us at the War Office. We shall lose no time in making arrangements so that another unit may be formed, either of the New Army or of the Territorial Force, in order to accommodate these men.
§ Mr. WARDDoes the right hon. Gentleman know, directly the War Office gave us a chance of a third battalion, that within five weeks we filled it up absolutely because the men could serve with their own pals?
§ Mr. TENNANTI was going to deal with that subject. Men that desire to serve together may do so. We have made arrangements by which a company of men coming together and enlisting in the same battalion shall be allowed to remain together, and I know that this will have a great effect upon recruiting. But I also think that the hon. Member will understand that you cannot go on indefinitely recruiting for one battalion. When the battalion becomes full, it behoves the authorities to create a new battalion, and the question then arises whether it is more desirable to have a Territorial battalion which upon being first inaugurated would only be a Home service detachment, or—
§ Mr. WARDNo. In recruiting our Territorials in Stoke-on-Trent we make them all sign the Foreign service form.
§ Mr. TENNANTThen I can only tell my hon. Friend that he has no right to do so. It has not been our policy up to 673 now that there shall be more than one foreign service battalion of a Territorial regiment. There is, as I have said, one for Home service and one for Foreign service. If there are two battalions of the same regiment willing and anxious to go on foreign service, then that is another matter. I think it would be almost impossible to do what the hon. Member suggests, but they can go into the Staffordshire regiment of the New Army. That really is a detail. What we want to know, and what I am sure the country wants to know, is what the men have done. I ought, perhaps, before I leave that to tell the House what probably it knows, that a very large number, a score or more, thirty or forty new battalions, and what I may call Special battalions, have been formed. There are four Tyneside Scottish battalions and one Irish battalion.
§ Mr. JOHN O'CONNORAnd a second Irish battalion on its way.
§ Mr. TENNANTYes, and a second Tyneside Irish battalion on its way. The Rhondda Valley has produced at least two or three battalions, and so on all over the country. They are extraneous, as it were, to the New Army, because they have not been put into organisation yet, though eventually they will be. Lord mayors and other promoters of these brigades have undertaken certain responsibilities of a very onerous kind for the equipment and feeding and housing of their battalions until such time as we at the War Office are able to take them over. Then with regard to numbers, I think I ought perhaps to say that the higher policy as it were recommended by my hon. Friend has decreed that it is not wise to make public the whole circumstantiality of the facts connected with the actual number of men who have been enlisted. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave the House and the country some figures that were perhaps under the mark, and I do not think the House ought to press me with regard to those figures, and if they will allow me, I will leave it where the Prime Minister left it. A question has also been raised in connection with bands. I think we have all heard a few more bands lately than in previous months, and therefore the House may assume we have all been anxious to utilise any bands remaining in 674 this country for the purpose of recruiting and the stimulating of that feeling of patriotism, and a wish to help the country in its great need which we all desire to cultivate. The hon. Member for Poplar seemed to think we had not been altogether doing our duty, and that we were bound up and swathed in red tape. I think that charge does not lie against the War Office at the present moment. The landing of the South Africans, in connection with which complaint is made, is new to me. I heard of it to-day for the first time. I am not quite sure of this, but I do not think it is our Department that has to make such arrangements.
§ Mr. TENNANTI am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that. He does not make a charge, he only asks a question. I really cannot answer it now. I only heard of it by chance from what appeared in the newspapers. But I shall be very glad to inquire and give my hon. Friend an answer. Another suggestion was made that we should get into touch with the Post Office in order that circulars might be issued free of charge.
§ 1.0 P.M.
§ Mr. TENNANTI shall be very glad to consider that, but my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General will have something to say on the matter. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire raised a point with regard to the Committee issuing circulars to every householder throughout the country. I have seen it complained that the circular is worded in too official a manner. That, I dare say, is a matter which my hon. Friend the Chief Whip would consider, and we might have two brews. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries does not like brewing, but I think there might be alternative diction, if I might say so, in order that he who runs may read. With regard to reporting to the recruiting officer and not to the Committee, I think it possibly might be arranged. My hon. Friend might consult with the Committee and the Chief Whip. I am talking now of the Committee 675 which has its headquarters in Downing Street — the Parliamentary Committee. This Committee issued these circulars to the householders, and my hon. Friend the Chief Whip is more responsible, I think, for the issue from that Committee than anybody else, and I am sure any suggestion my hon. Friend makes will receive his careful consideration and probably will be acted upon without delay.
The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cambridge asked if we could arrange for some holidays for the troops who have been training, and who have gone through a certain number of hardship and trouble. I may inform the House that it has been the custom through all this period for commanding officers to give leave at reasonable intervals to the troops under their command for Sunday to Monday visits to their homes, and we at the War Office have made arrangements by which railway companies take these troops to their homes and back at half-fare—that is, the double journey for single fare. Whether a Christmas holiday could be arranged for is rather doubtful. The House will remember that we have, to some extent, placed the defence of our shores in the hands of those troops who are now training. I do not know that I need say more. It seems to me it would be undesirable to name a particular day when the whole of the defending force of this country should be on holiday. Notice of such holiday is not altogether required. Then, as to the question of Colours, my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War is not a man whose chief characteristic is sentiment, and having said that, I am unable to say whether I think even the persuasive eloquence of my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh would alter the decision he has already come to. I shall be very glad to give him the opportunity of learning what my hon. Friend has to say. I am sure the Secretary of State for War will be very glad to listen to his persuasive eloquence, though I cannot say that it would have so great an effect upon him as to make him change his decision upon a matter which he has opposed most strongly.
Mr. SHIRLEY BENNThe right hon. Gentleman has spoken of one Irish Tyneside battalion, and the hon. Member for 676 North Kildare (Mr. John O'Connor) spoke of two. I have just returned from speaking in Gateshead, and I was told that they had already recruited 2,900 men and that they did not intend stopping until they had secured four battalions and that they would have a Tyneside Irish Brigade.
§ Mr. TENNANTI am much obliged to the hon. Member for that information.
§ Question put, and agreed to.