Foot-and-Mouth Disease.

HC Deb 02 January 1913 vol 46 cc504-14

24. Mr. LUNDON

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the Irish cattle trade and especially with regard to the provinces of Munster and Connaught?

Mr. T. W. RUSSELL (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland)

This is a question which primarily concerns the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and will be answered by my right hon. Friend the President.

26. Mr. DILLON

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman can lay upon the Table the reports of the inspectors of the Department and any communications which have passed between his Department and the Board of Agriculture in England with reference to the cases of suspected foot-and-mouth disease in county Armagh; the heads exported from Derry to Glasgow which were alleged to show lesions caused by foot-and-mouth disease; and the cases of alleged foot-and-mouth disease in store cattle from county Meath which were brought to the port of Dublin for shipment?

Mr. RUSSELL

The investigations of the inspectors of the Department into all the matters referred to are complete. But I must ask the hon. Gentleman to postpone his question inasmuch as an inspector of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries is now in Ireland pursuing inquiries. When his report has been received I shall confer with my right hon. Friend as to whether it will be possible to lay the Papers on the Table.

Mr. DILLON

When the right hon. Gentleman is conferring with the President of the Board of Agriculture, will he bring his attention to the fact that there is a very large body of opinion in Ireland that there was no foot-and-mouth disease in any of these cases, and that there is a great demand in Ireland for the documents-which would enable one to form a judgment?

Mr. RUSSELL

I am quite aware there is great feeling on this matter in the North of Ireland, and indeed throughout the whole of Ireland, and the hon. Gentleman may depend upon it that when I confer with my right hon. Friend the whole subject will be gone into thoroughly.

Sir J. LONSDALE

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the report of the inspectors who are there making investigations does not warrant him in informing the House that not a single case of foot-and-mouth disease has been proved to have been found in the county of Armagh, and whether, having regard to that undoubted fact, he will consider the advisability of withdrawing the restrictions under which Armagh has been placed?

Mr. SPEAKER

That question hardly arises out of the answer.

Mr. RUSSELL

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give me notice of it.

Mr. GILHOOLY

May I ask whether this embargo on the cattle trade of Ireland has not been imposed since last June, and also how many questions regarding it have been asked by the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) and others until the last few weeks?

27. Mr. GINNELL

asked what length of time is now held to be sufficient for maintenance of restrictions on the movement of animals after the latest case of foot-and-mouth disease in a district and the instructions on disinfection have been carried out; whether that time has elapsed in Westmeath; and when the restrictions still maintained there will be wholly removed?

Mr. RUSSELL

The date of withdrawal of restrictions from any particular scheduled district depends on the circumstances of each case. Usually a couple of months are allowed to elapse after the date of the last outbreak. The last confirmed case in Mullingar district was on 7th November. The full restrictions originally imposed in consequence of the numerous outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease at or near Mullingar now apply only to a contracted scheduled district having a few miles radius from that town. Movement into and within the greater part of the county can freely take place, and movement out (except from the small scheduled district) is permissible on licence in the case of fat animals intended for slaughter in a slaughterhouse or bacon factory or for direct shipment to Great Britain for slaughter in the approved landing places. It is hoped that if nothing unexpected occurs it may be possible further to relax the existing restrictions at an early date.

29. Mr. PATRICK WHITE

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether he is aware that, in the opinion of the majority of Irish stock owners and exporters, the feeding and detention of cattle before shipment in Ireland is altogether unnecessary; and, if so, whether he proposes to give effect to this opinion?

Mr. RUSSELL

I consider the detention for two hours for the purpose of resting, feeding, and inspecting the animals before going on board ship both necessary and wise.

Mr. P. WHITE

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he consulted the opinion of exporters and owners of stock, or is he giving me his own opinion?

Mr. RUSSELL

Before coming to a conclusion I met the Cattle Traders' Association and representatives of the large shipping and railway companies, and discussed the matter fully with them; and I came to the decision that two hours was a reasonable and a necessary period of detention.

Mr. P. WHITE

Does the right hon. Gentleman tell the House that the cattle exporters of Ireland told him that feeding at the port of shipment in Ireland was necessary?

Mr. RUSSELL

The cattle exporters were divided in opinion. I could have got a perfectly unanimous finding if I had consented to one hour's detention, but unquestionably the cattle traders, as a whole, are against this regulation.

Mr. P. WHITE

It is not a question of detention, but a question of feeding.

Mr. RUSSELL

I do not think that is sufficient reason for subjecting these animals to what in many instances is a species of torture.

Mr. GUINEY

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware those cattle are always fed before being allowed to be exported?

Mr. RUSSELL

I am aware of nothing of the kind.

Mr. H. BARRIE

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us if at this meeting he informed those present that it had been decided by the English Department to have a compulsory twelve hours' detention on this side?

Mr. RUSSELL

It had not been so decided at the time.

Captain MURRAY

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the views of Scottish importers are very different from those of Irish exporters.

Mr. GILHOOLY

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen a resolution passed by the cattle traders of the South of Ireland to the effect that this detention would ruin the cattle trade, and that there was no necessity for feeding and watering the cattle on the other side?

Mr. RUSSELL

I have seen many such resolutions, but the regulation has been in force for some time without producing the slightest inconvenience to the cattle trade.

Mr. MOORE

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—

Mr. SPEAKER

Hon. Members had better put down any further questions.

30. Mr. H. BARRIE

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he intends summoning a special meeting of the Agricultural Council to consider the proposed permanent detention of Irish cattle at landing ports in England and Scotland?

Mr. RUSSELL

I do not think any object would be served by a meeting of the Council of Agriculture which would justify the assembling of that body again so soon after the last meeting, which was held only within the past four weeks. For practical purposes the sort of people most useful to confer with on this point are the representatives of the cattle trade. The Department have had their views already, and their views on the whole will probably amount simply to opposition to the idea of a twelve hours' detention period, just as they were largely opposed to a two hours' detention period on this side.

Mr. BARRIE

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the farmers of Ireland, of which the Agricultural Council is the most representative body, should have a voice in this matter before a decision is come to?

Mr. RUSSELL

If the hon. Member presses for a meeting of the Council of Agriculture, and cannot show me a formal requisition, but prove that any substantial number desire it, I shall not stand in the way.

31. Mr. H. LAW

asked when the restrictions upon the cattle trade will be removed so far as concerns the county of Donegal?

Mr. RUSSELL

The restrictions referred to apply only to a small portion of county Donegal. It is hoped that if nothing unexpected occurs in the meantime it may be found possible to remove these restrictions-within the next fortnight. No definite date can yet be given.

Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any hope they will be removed on or before 12th January?

Mr. RUSSELL

I presume the hon. Member is thinking of the fair to be held on that day.

Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL

Yes, that is so.

Mr. RUSSELL

I will carefully consider the circumstances and the state of that part of Donegal before I come to a decision.

Mr. BARRIE

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the entire order has now been removed from the county of Londonderry?

Mr. RUSSELL

Yes.

32. Mr. MULDOON

asked the number of animals exported from Ireland during the period from the 30th of June to the end of 1912, and the number stopped on the ground of their being affected with foot-and-mouth disease?

Mr. RUSSELL

The number of animals (excluding equine animals) exported from Ireland during the period from 30th June to 30th December was 686,696. No animals were stopped prior to shipment on the ground of their being affected with foot-and-mouth disease. Five cases of alleged foot-and-mouth disease were found at Birkenhead on 4th and 5th December among animals shipped from Newry on 3rd December. These cases are now the subject of investigation.

65. Mr. LUNDON

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he is now in a position to make an announcement regarding the relaxation of restrictions imposed in the case of store cattle exported from Minister and Connaught?

67. Captain MURRAY

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is in a position to make any statement regarding the importation of Irish store cattle into Scotland and England?

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Runciman)

I have considered carefully, in consultation with my right hon. Friend, the practicability of differentiating as regards the period of quarantine between cattle for store purposes brought from Munster and Connaught and those brought from other non-scheduled districts in Ireland, but we have arrived at the conclusion that no arrangements which could, under existing circumstances, be made on this side would be of any substantial advantage to the traders concerned. With every desire to find a solution of the question on these lines, I have therefore been reluctantly obliged to adopt the view that such an arrangement is impracticable. I am, however, contemplating a general reduction of the period of quarantine from four days to twelve hours at an early date. A final decision cannot be come to until certain investigations respecting suspicious cases in cattle brought from counties Donegal and Fermanagh and county Armagh have been concluded. I hope that they will be completed within the next forty-eight hours, and if the question is repeated on Tuesday I shall then be able to give a definite reply. Any modification of the quarantine period will not, of course, affect districts in Ireland for the time being scheduled by Orders of the Department of my right hon. Friend.

Captain MURRAY

Has the right hon. Gentleman been in communication with Aberdeen as to the regulations made for that port?

Mr. RUNCIMAN

I have had no formal communications with Aberdeen. I understand there is some accommodation available at Aberdeen.

Mr. LYELL

Has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration the suggestion made to him of buffer states?

Mr. RUNCIMAN

I am hoping that this will not be necessary, and seeing that a long period has elapsed since a case of foot-and-mouth disease has been con- firmed in Ireland, that the change will apply to all Ireland.

70. Mr. DILLON

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, before sanctioning the proposal to detain Irish cattle for a period of twelve hours at English ports, he consulted men engaged in conducting the trade in Irish cattle; and, if not, whether he will now suspend the operation of this new regulation until he-has had a full opportunity of considering the views of those engaged in the Irish trade?

Mr. RUNCIMAN

I have been kept informed of and have carefully considered the views held by men engaged in the carriage of animals into Great Britain by merchants who sell here, and by purchasers of both store and fat animals. Whatever objections have been urged' against inspection at the ports in Great Britain and the detention for this purpose and for watering, feeding, and resting are so greatly outweighed by the advantages which accrue that I am not prepared to-dispense with this necessary regulation of the trade.

Mr. DILLON

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. I asked whether he had consulted men engaged in the Irish trade—I mean men who deal in and are responsible for handling Irish cattle—and if not whether he will suspend the operation of the new regulations until he has a full opportunity of consulting them.

Mr. RUNCIMAN

I do not know what the hon. Member means exactly by consultation, but I have had interviews with men who are engaged in the carriage of animals—Irish and English merchants who-deal in Irish cattle—and with the purchasers of both fat and store cattle in this country, and have carefully weighed the whole of their views.

Mr. DILLON

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that any body of Irish dealers and cattle traders approve of the twelve hours detention?

Mr. RUNCIMAN

I believe no organised body of Irish breeders have approved of the twelve hours detention, but that does not induce me to alter the arrangements which I have made and for which there is a necessity.

Mr. W. O'BRIEN

In reference to the right hon. Gentleman's regulations is it not a fact that the County Council of Meath has sent him and the Prime Minister a resolution in reference to these very regulations, suggesting that his sphere of duty ought to be changed, and has he made any reply?

Mr. RUNCIMAN

Oh, yes, I have acknowledged the resolution.

Mr. MOORE

Has the right hon. Gentleman yet received resolutions of protest from the Nationalist Parliamentary party against these regulations?

Mr. HAYDEN

Do the restrictions regarding foot-and-mouth disease extend as far as Athlone, and in view of the fact that for very many years there has been no case within many miles of that town could these restrictions be so contracted as to enable the great January fair of Athlone to be held as usual?

Mr. RUSSELL

The fair at Athlone is on the 19th and 20th. I hope before that date if no new cases occur—there have been none for two months—to have removed the whole of the restrictions.

Sir W. NUGENT

Is it not a fact that there has been no case of foot-and-mouth disease nor even a suspected case in South Westmeath, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only possible trade in cattle in that county is the store cattle trade, and, moreover, will he point out to the President of the Board of Agriculture in England that the town of Athlone—

Mr. SPEAKER

That is a question of which notice should be given.

Mr. FIELD

Can the right hon. Gentleman state what arrangements he proposes to make respecting the detention of Irish live stock, what is the period of time it is intended to detain the animals, and is this arrangement to be permanent, and, if so, what accommodation is to be provided so as to avoid overcrowding and delay to shipping?

Mr. RUSSELL

Over and over again I have stated that the period of detention in Ireland is two hours. We have insisted on the railway and shipping companies providing adequate accommodation for the animals whilst they are under detention. In a great many cases the accommodation existed, and where it did not exist it had to be provided.

Sir W. NUGENT

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that owing to the fact that Athlone is situated partly in Westmeath and partly in Roscommon it is utterly impossible to carry out restrictions?

Mr. RUSSELL

I am aware that part of Athlone is in Westmeath and part in Roscommon, and am well aware of the difficulty in drawing an Order to deal with it. I ask my hon. Friend to bear with us for two days longer. I have no doubt the restrictions will be removed long before the fair at Athlone.

Sir J. LONSDALE

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to state the result of investigations which have been made by the Department inspectors in the Mid-Division of Armagh, and can he give an assurance that the restrictions will be immediately withdrawn from that area?

Mr. RUSSELL

This is a matter which has caused extraordinary interest in Ireland. The Department's investigations are complete, and the Board of Agriculture's inspector has been on the farm, and from what my right hon. Friend tells me I do not believe his report will be very different from that of the Department. Perhaps I may just say what has occurred in regard to this important case. The attention of the Department was called to Armagh by the seizure of five animals at Birkenhead landed by the ss. "Iveagh" from Newry. They were declared to be affected by foot-and-mouth disease. Upon inquiry the Department found that these anirnals came from Armagh. They were traced home to the farms from which they came, and on two or three of the farms—I think three, but I am quite certain of two—a state of affairs was found which, as I informed the hon. Gentleman one night, was a cause of very great anxiety. Inspectors were sent to these farms, and they found seven animals suffering from some mouth disease. The inspectors declined to confirm that it was foot-and-mouth disease; they rather inclined to a contrary opinion. I then asked Professor Mettam, Principal of the Veterinary College in Dublin, and President of the Royal Veterinary Society of the United King-dom, to be good enough to go to Armagh and investigate the matter and report to the Department, which he did. The proceeding taken on Professor Mettam's advice was this: Four healthy animals were taken, and they were inoculated by an emulsion made from the tongues of animals affected on the farms. Four animals responded, but not with any symptom of foot-and-mouth disease. There was no fever, no rise in temperature, no salivation, and no vesicles. Four sheep were inoculated, and three responded with the same result. Four pigs were then taken with no result at all.

I would remind the House that, in past days, pigs were more liable to this disease than other animals. Professor Mettam made his report, and I asked the question, "Well, if it is not foot-and-mouth disease, what is it?" We discovered that the local veterinary surgeons were as good authorities upon that as anyone could be, and I called to our aid three ordinary country practitioners. When they saw the animals they at once told us, and had no doubt about it, that it was not foot-and-mouth disease at all. They were familiar with the disease, and the peasantry were in the habit of calling it "dirty tongue." It is not mentioned in any veterinary book. That being the case, the only serious matter arising is that Professor Mettam, who examined the five heads at Birkenhead, stated in his report, in the most unqualified manner, that the animals received there were suffering from the same disease as the animals suffered from on the Armagh farms. That is the whole case. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that these facts having been established, the Board of Agriculture, having accepted our invitation to go and examine the facts, have practically arrived at the same conclusion regarding the animals. I do not think the Department will be justified in retaining the restrictions on Armagh longer than we can possibly help.

Sir J. LONSDALE

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "longer than we can possibly help"? If there is no foot-and-mouth disease, I cannot understand why the restrictions should be retained for one hour.

Mr. RUSSELL

They will be removed at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. FIELD

Will the right hon. Gentleman send me copies of the official reports made to the Department?

Mr. RUSSELL

I answered that in replying to the question put by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) earlier in the day.

Mr. LARDNER

In view of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, am I right in assuming that the restriction will be removed in time to allow the monthly fair to be held in Monaghan on Monday next?

Mr. RUSSELL

Well, I think I can promise that.