§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,400, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1913, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works and Public Buildings."
§ Sir F. BANBURYThe additional sum required is not very large—£4,400 on an original estimate of £136,000—but the explanations are by no means satisfactory. May I draw attention to the footnote.
(a) Salaries, wages and allowances. Provision for addition to staff sanctioned to meet the addition to the work of the Department caused by the requirements of the Labour Exchanges and Insurance Offices.Everyone of these Supplementary Estimates has some considerable charge in it for expenses owing to Insurance and Labour Exchanges. They seem to have taken the whole amount and divided it up in little bits, and even taken the hon. Gentleman opposite and given him a small share—only £1,600—in order that he might not be left out in the cold. That is, of course, a very easy way of showing that the total expenses are not very large, but I do not know that it is very satisfactory. They were given travelling expenses and so we see "Provision for additional expenditure due to the same cause." May I call the attention of the Secretary to the Treasury to a very excellent, explanation given under (c). "Incidental expenses. The original provision has proved insufficient." May I advise the right hon. Gentleman to take a lesson from the hon. Member (Mr. Wedgwood Benn) who in a very modest way, having no explanations to give, has put a very simple explanation in six words.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD BENNThe explanation of this Supplementary Vote is very simple. In July last a Supplementary Vote was asked for by the Office of Works for the provision of additional accommodation in connection with the Insurance Act under the Unemployment part of it and that money was voted by Parliament. A corresponding increase in the charges following on the establishment of the Office of Works was necessitated and that increase is explained in this Vote. Under Salaries, Wages and Allowances there is an increase of £1,700, partly for the examiners of accounts and partly for 641 draughtsmen who had to prepare designs for the changes in buildings for Labour Exchanges and Insurance offices. Travelling expenses are due to the fact that these officers had to go to different parts of the country to hire premises and the incidental expenses are largely due to the necessity for advertising for premises in order to get the most suitable for the purpose.
§ Colonel LOCKWOODWhat are the travelling expenses of these gentlemen—how much a day?
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD BENNThere is a fixed rate. The higher grade of officers receive first class fares and a subsistence allowance of 15s. for twenty-four hours and 5s. for an absence not exceeding ten hours.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEWhat amount is included under (a) for salaries of the permanent architects who advise the Board of Trade and the Office of Works?
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD BENNI think there is no increase in wages of the architects' staff. The increase will be found on pages 124 and 125 of the original Estimates—Allowances to Examiners and Draughtsmen.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI do not think any proper explanation has been given, and Parliament ought not to allow so gross a miscalculation to pass without protest. I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £600.
Mr. PRICEThere would be some charges in connection with the Calton Hill site. May I ask whether it would be posible for the hon. Member who represents the Office of Works to give some information in regard to that matter?
Captain CRAIGThe hon. Member has not explained to the Committee what are the proportions charged as between Labour Exchanges and National Insurance offices, or what is the amount allocated for travelling expenses as between these two services. Everybody who has followed the Debates throughout the afternoon must have been impressed with the fact that, in Vote after Vote something has slipped in in connection with the National Insurance scheme. Unless the hon. Gentleman can disintegrate the various amounts and show the items for Labour Exchanges and National Insurance, it is very difficult for hon. Members to keep an accurate record of the cost to the country for the different Departments. We will eventually reach the original Estimates for Labour Exchanges, hut it will be impossible for anybody to 642 tell whether they have cost £40,000, £50,000, or £60,000, because we will have at the back of our heads the knowledge that Votes for that Department were included in other Votes. When the Bill was passing through the House it was urged that the cost of the Labour Exchanges, whatever it was to be, should be in a watertight compartment so that the country would know what it was to be. We should be very careful to guard against excessive expenditure on the Exchanges when it is borne in mind that they do not meet any general want, and that they have really broken down so far as any benefit to the working classes is concerned. If it is found impossible to get the different items in watertight compartments, the suspicion will be confirmed that the Government are not keeping their bargain with the House. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us how much of the £1,700 is apportioned to Labour Exchanges and how much to the National Insurance scheme.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD BENNI should be glad to afford the information asked for but it is quite impossible to do so. The one officer might go down to a place in connection with a new Labour Exchange and at the same time do some business in connection with the National Insurance Act, and other matters, and his expenses could not be divided up because it is impossible to say what part of his services were devoted to each.
Captain CRAIGThat is the most absurd explanation I ever heard. There is not a business firm in any city in this country who when it sends a man to a place to do two or three particular jobs does not get from him a scrupulous account of how much of the cost is to be put against each job. Every business firm in this country does exactly what the hon. Member says it is impossible to do in the case of his Department. Suppose he was having a house built in his Constituency so as to live there, and a friend of his was building another house and a third person was laying out a garden, and all the jobs were being done by the one contractor, does anyone imagine that if an expert went down to look after all these jobs all the expenses would be charged to the hon. Member, or that the firm would say "it is too much trouble to spread the expenses over each job separately: we will charge them all up to the hon. Member? Yet that is what he has done. If the hon. Member sends a man to do work for one Government Department and asks him while in 643 the district to do some work for another Government Department surely it is a matter of book-keeping to separate the accounts so that we may know how much cost has been incurred by each Department. Otherwise the whole system of Government Departments and book-keeping is most faulty and a vote of censure should be passed on the hon. Member for permitting his Department to carry out its work in such a manner. I know that he always tries to shift the blame on to his neighbour at Question Time and says that it is the fault of the Treasury, but he cannot blame the Treasury now.
| Division No. 592.] | AYES. | [11.40 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Acland, Francis D. | Hazleton, Richard | O'Shee, James John |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Higham, John Sharp | Outhwaite, R. L |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Hodge, John | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Hogge, J. M. (Edinburgh, E.) | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Holmes, D. T. | Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rothe[...]nam) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Barnes, George N. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pointer, Joseph |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Illingworth, Percy H. | Ponsonby, Arthur W. H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Been, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. George) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, E) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Jones, Leif (Rushcliffe) | Radford, George Haynes |
| Boland, John Pius | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Jowett, Frederick William | Reddy, Michael |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Joyce, Michael | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Keating, Matthew | Redmond, William A. (Tyrone, E.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John (Battersea) | Kilbride, Denis | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | King, Joseph (Somerset, North) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Molten, S.) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Clancy, John Joseph Lambert, | Richard (Cricklade) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Clough, William | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Robinson, Sidney |
| Clynes, John R. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumbr'ld, Cockerm'th) | Roche, Augustine (Louth, N.) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Levy, Sir Maurice | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lewis, John Herbert | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Cullinan, John | Lundon, Thomas | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, Timothy (Louth) | Lyell, C. H. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Bridgeton). |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | MacGhee, Richard | Sheehy, David |
| De Forest, Baron | Maclean, Donald | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Doris, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Thomas J. | Smith, Albert (Clitheroe) |
| Duffy, William J. | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S,) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | MacPherson, James Ian | Sutherland, John E. |
| Falconer, James | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sutton, John E. |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Ffrench, Peter | M`Laren, Hon.F.W.S. (Lincs, Spalding) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Wadsworth, John |
| Furness, Stephen W. | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Meagher, Michael | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Millar, Duncan | Watt, Henry A. |
| Glanville, Harold James | Molloy, Michael | Webb, H. |
| Goldstone, Frank | Molteno, Percy Alport | White, James Dundas (Tradeston). |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Greig, Colonel James William | Morgan, George Hay | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Muldoon, John | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Gulland, John William | Munro, Robert | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Murray, Capt., Hon. Arthur C. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Hackett, John | Needham, Christopher Thomas | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Nolan, Joseph | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. M'Kinnon (Glas.) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds.) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Deherty, Phillip | |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | O'Dowd, John | |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. G. Howard and Capt. Guest. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Malley, William | |
| Havelock-Allen, Sir Henry | O'Neill, Dr Charles (Armagh, S.) |
§ Mr. C. E. PRICECan the hon. Member give us any information with regard to the different buildings taken in Edinburgh for working the Insurance Act? Certain offices have been started.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD BENNI would remind the hon. Member that this Vote is a Supplementary Estimate for Salaries. It is not a Vote for building of any kind.
Amendment negatived.
Original Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 172; Noes, 46.
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dalrymple, Viscount | Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington) |
| Aitken, Sir William M. | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Falle, Bertram Godfray | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gibbs, George Abraham | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry, N.) | Gilmour, Captain John | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Benn, Arthur S. (Plymouth) | Greene, Walter Raymond | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Benn, Ian Hamilton (Greenwich) | Gretton, John | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Bird, Alfred | Hope, James Fitzaian (Sheffield) | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Burn, Col. C. R. (Torquay) | Hunt, Rowland | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Thomson, Wm. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Cassel, Felix | Kerry, Earl of | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Law, Rt. Hon. A Boner (Bootle) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsay) | |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Newman and Mr. Sandys. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian |