§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £5,200, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1913, for certain Miscellaneous Legal Expenses."
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONI beg to move "That Item B (Expenses incurred under various Treaties with Foreign Powers and under the Fugitive Offenders Act, 44 and 45 Vic., c. 69) be reduced by £100."
I desire to ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to Item B:—
Expenses incurred under various Treaties with Foreign Powers. And under the Fugitive Offenders Act.The vote has been increased by £750. The explanation at the end is:—Additional sum required for expenses incurred in arresting and delivering up to the proper authorities persons whose extradition from the United Kingdom may be demanded under various Treaties with Foreign Powers which impose this charge upon the United Kingdom.If one wished to be hypercritical, one might object to the suggestion that any treaty could impose a charge on the United Kingdom; because from the purely constitutional point of view a treaty is the act of the Sovereign acting on the advice of his responsible Ministers, and the Sovereign has no power to impose a charge. But the question I wish to ask is whether there was any particular reason for this increase, and in respect of what countries the extra charge became due. I have always understood that under these treaties the expenses of extradition were borne by the country making the demand for extradition. I have not had time to consult many treaties, but I can give two 646 cases. In the treaty with Servia in 1902, Article XVI. provides:—All expenses connected with extradition shall be borne by the demanding State.Again, in the treaty with Peru in 1904, Article XVI. provides:—All expenses connected with extradition shall be borne by the demanding State.In the face of that, I should like to know what are the countries to whose demands for extradition the extra charge is due, and whether in point of fact we are bound to make these payments.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI am afraid I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the names of the countries with which these treaties exist, and I am not sure that I should be in order in doing so on a Supplementary Estimate. I am informed that in many cases the treaties take the form of reciprocal obligations, although that is evidently not the case with regard to Servia. I should be happy to give further information on that point if the hon. Gentleman puts down a question. As to the fresh expenditure, there has been some unusually costly cases, in connection with extradition from our colonies. One had to be borne from West Australia and another from South Africa. There was also a very expensive case in the London Extradition Court, which obtained considerable notoriety in the public Press—the case concerning a gentleman named Wells, "Monte Carlo Wells." In such a Vote a very close estimate is impossible. There must be a certain amount of variation from year to year in accordance with the number of cases that arise. Under these circumstances no criticism lies against the extra amount which we have to vote on the Supplementary Estimates.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONI am not anxious to press the right hon. Gentle- 647 man, but I would point out to him that his explanation is not consistent with the explanation given on the Paper. He has referred to the extra cost of extradition from Western Australia and South Africa.
§ Mr. MASTERMANIn part.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONIn part; but that is wholly besides this explanation on the Paper. These extraditions from South Africa and Western Australia took place under the Fugitive Offenders Act. In the second place the explanation on the Paper says that the cost is due to extradition from the United Kingdom and not to extradition from the Colonies. Therefore the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman does not pull the Government out. But it would be unfair to press the right hon. Gentleman hardly. At the same time the Committee must remember that this is the only opportunity we have to discuss this matter. I shall take the opportunity in the usual way by Question and Answer of getting further information, and on that understanding, I am quite prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. PETOI beg to move "That Item F 1 (inquiries before the Wreck Commissioner) be reduced by £100."
The items of this estimate have been divided by a number of other matters wholly irrelevant to the question, which will increase the time and add to the inconvenience of hon. Members in dealing with it. When I was speaking on Class II. (8) of the Board of Trade (certain law charges) I referred to the exception that had been made in the case of the inquiry that followed the "Titanic" disaster. Here the Government decided that the Law costs of those connected with the disaster should be paid by the Government. They not only allowed solicitors' charges, but authorised solicitors to brief counsel. It is perfectly true that it was expressly understood that this was not to create a precedent. I called the attention of the Committee to the fact that in this particular case of an appalling disaster the Government felt it necessary that they should bear the expense, and that the poor people should not.
I would call the attention of the Committee to the fact that in the particular Sub-section of the Vote it states in 648 the explanation (F) that the additional sum is required to pay fees to stipendiary magistrates, magistrates' clerks, local court keepers, etc. It has been very rightly said that there is much virtue in the word "if." I venture to say that there is much virtue, so far as this case, that I want to put before the Committee is concerned, in the little abbreviation "et cetera." If it were not the fact that it has become the general rule under the rules of the Board of Trade that law costs should not be allowed the question of law costs, up or down, would be, no doubt, of annual consideration in Committee upon these Estimates. But there have been some cases quite recently in which the attention of the Board of Trade has been called to this matter, and it appeared obvious to the legal officials, Wreck Commissioners, magistrates, and others considering these cases that they should be disabled from allowing law costs as they would in any other case. And because it has been the invariable rule not to allow these law costs they have been forced to disallow them.
The CHAIRMANI have some difficulty in apprehending the point the hon. Gentleman is making. I think his point is that because the costs in the preceding Votes were allowed to other parties similar practice ought to be followed in connection with these Votes and that a similar practice ought to be followed.
§ Mr. PETOThat is not entirely it. This Vote deals with the sum required under the heading of Inquiries before Magistrates and Wreck Commissioners, and, therefore, this is the only Vote on which the question can possibly be raised as to whether or not the law costs of the officers and masters are or are not included in this Vote.
The CHAIRMANAs I understand the hon. Gentleman, he thinks the present practice requires to be varied. Is that his point?
§ Mr. PETOThe present general practice, and that the special practice put into force in the case of the "Titanic" Inquiry should become general.
The CHAIRMANThat question does not arise here.
Original Question put.
The Committee divided:
Ayes, 162; Noes, 38.
| Division No. 593.] | AYES. | [12.1 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Hayward, Evan | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Hazleton, Richard | O'Shee, James John |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Higham, John Sharp | Outhwa[...]te, R. L. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Hodge, John | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Hogge, James Myles | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Barnes, George N. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pointer, Joseph |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Radford, G. H. |
| Boland, John Plus | Jowett, Frederick William | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, M. |
| Brady, P. J. | Keating, Matthew | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | King, J. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Cawley, H. T. (Heywood) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Clough, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lewis, John Herbert | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lundon, T. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cullinan, John | Lyell, Charles Henry | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lynch, A. A. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B, |
| Dawes, J. A. | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Sheehy, David |
| De Forest, Baron | Macpherson, James Ian | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Doris, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Duffy, William J. | McGhee, Richard | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Falconer, James | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs.,Spalding) | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Sutton, John E. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Tennant, Harold John |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Gladstone, W G. C. | Meagher, Michael | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Glanville, H. J. | Millar, James Duncan | Wadsworth, J. |
| Goldstone, Frank | Molteno, Percy Alport | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Morgan, George Hay | Watt, Henry Anderson |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Muldoon, John | Webb, H. |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Munro, R. | White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) |
| Hackett, J. | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Needham, Christopher Thomas | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Nolan, Joseph | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Wilson, W. T.(Westhoughton) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | O'Doherty, Philip | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | O'Dowd, John | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Malley, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dalrymple, Viscount | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Baird, J. L. | Gibbs, G. A. | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gilmour, Captain John | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Greene, W. R. | Sandys, G. J. |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Gretton, John | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Bird, A. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hunt, Rowland | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Cassel, Felix | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Kerry, Earl of | |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Locker-Lampoon, O. (Ramsey) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Watson Rutherford and Mr. Peto. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninlan | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |