HC Deb 06 February 1913 vol 48 cc190-9

The several words and expressions used in this Act shall unless otherwise provided or unless there be something in the subject or context repugnant to such construction have the same respective meaning[...] as in the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903: Provided that in this Act:—

"Area" means:—

  1. (a) in the case of a burgh divided into wards the population of which burgh within the police boundaries thereof, according to the census for the time being last taken, is not less than ten thousand, any ward of such burgh, and in the case of other burghs, the whole burgh; and
  2. (b) in the case of a county, the parish, as defined in the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, excluding any burgh or part of a burgh therein, and where a parish is situated within two counties, the portion in each county shall, for the purposes of 191 this Act, be deemed a sepa parish:

"Burgh" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh:

"County" means a county exclusive of any burgh or part of a burgh comprised therein:

"Certificate" means any certificate for the sale by retail of exciseable liquors granted in terms of or under the provisions of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903: Provided that for the period during which a no-licence resolution is in force in any area, no dealer's licence for the sale of exciseable liquor by wholesale shall be granted therein by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise or by any officer of Customs and Excise, except to brewers of beer for sale, distillers, rectifiers, or compounders of spirits, makers of sweets, or wholesale dealers in spirits, wine, beer, or sweets for premises for which similar licences have been taken out for twelve months before the date of the poll, without the production of a certificate authorising such sale from the Licensing Court; which certificate shall be applied for, granted, confirmed, transferred, and renewed in the same manner as though it were a certificate authorising such sale by retail:

"Elector" means, in the case of—

  1. (a) a burgh, any person registered as entitled to vote at an election of town councillors for that burgh, and when used in relation to any area in a burgh means a person so registered as entitled to vote at an election for that area; and in the case of—
  2. (b) a parish (excluding any burgh or part of a burgh therein), any person registered as entitled to vote at an election of parish councillors for that parish, excluding as aforesaid: Provided that the supplementary register made up in the year nineteen hundred and sixteen under Section twenty-eight of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889, shall continue in operation for the purposes of a poll under this Act in the year nineteen hundred and seventeen, and provided further that for the purposes of a requisition in the year of a triennial election of county councillors before the register of parish council electors is made up "elector" means any rate- 192 the parish, excluding as aforesaid:

The expression "grant" when used in relation to a certificate includes the grant of a certificate by way of renewal:

"Local authority" means in the case of—

  1. (a) a burgh, the town council thereof; and
  2. (b) a county, the county council thereof;

"No-change resolution" means a resolution that the powers and discretion of the Licensing Court in regard to the grant of certificates or otherwise shall remain unchanged, and in Section two as applied to a further poll in any area where a limiting resolution is in force means a continuance resolution.

Lords Amendment: Leave out the words "a burgh divided into wards, the population of which burgh within the police boundaries thereof, according to the census for the time being taken, is not less than ten thousand, any ward of such burgh, and in the case of other burghs, the whole burgh, and," in order to insert in place thereof the words:—

("which is not divided into wards, or of a burgh the population of which within the police boundaries thereof according to the census for the time being last taken is less than twenty-five thousand, the whole burgh and in the case of any other burgh, any ward or combination of wards or parts of wards, proposed by the town council and approved by the Secretary for Scotland, of which the population shall not be less than twelve thousand.")

Government Amendment: To leave out the words "any ward or combination of wards or part of wards, proposed by the town council, and approved by the Secretary for Scotland, of which the population shall not be less than twelve thousand," in order to insert the word "thereof."


This is an Amendment with which we partly agree and partly disagree. So far as the Lords Amendment proposes to increase the size of the urban areas from 10,000 to 25,000, I propose that we agree with it. That automatically increases the size of the wards. I strongly object to the proposal to manufacture new ad hoc areas. The objection on administrative grounds will be readily understood by those who have had to do with local government areas. When you have to do with a ward you have a convenient, well known, familiar, and natural electoral area. You have an electoral roll which can be conveniently handled. If you set up new ad hoc areas for specific purposes like this you create great difficulty, and it is quite unnecessary. It may be considered to be to the interests of licence holders on the one hand or temperance people on the other to get one area or the other. One of the objects of this Bill is to remove the pressure of the trade from the Licensing Court, to make the town council independent of that kind. of pressure or pressure from temperance reformers if you like, and put the thing under popular control. It is quite unnecessary to create artificial areas for this purpose, and it would cause a good deal of difficulty and trouble. I shall, therefore, move as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to leave out from "ward" in line five, to the end of the Amendment, and insert "thereof."


The question involved in this Amendment of the Lords is purely a practical matter. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman quite put to the House the real substance of the point with which this Amendment deals. Originally as the Bill emerged from Committee, the proposal was to deal with boroughs of not less than 10,000 population, and in the case of boroughs which had less than 10,000 population, then the area was the whole borough. In other words, the 10,000 population limit was applied as being the standard of the area. If the borough were bigger than such as contained a population of 10,000, then the ward was taken. The right hon. Gentleman, and I thank him so far for what he has done, has conceded the view which I think was contended for by some of us, that an area with a population of 10,000 only was really too small to make this principle apply to it as an area by itself. He has raised the minimum from 10,000 to 25,000, which is a much more workable area, and so far as I am concerned I am well pleased. But what has the right hon. Gentleman refused to do? While he has conceded the proposition that a burgh of 10,000 is rather small to take as a single area and that a burgh of 25,000 is a fair population to treat as forming an area by itself he says, "I reject that part of the Lords Amendment which, dealing with burghs which have more than 25,000 population, provides that the area in that case is to have not less than 12,000 population." It is a very fair proposition, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman's attention to it. He says a ward is a very convenient area because you have got it already, and you have the means of getting hold of all the electorate within that area. Although that is quite true, it is just as true of two wards as it is of one, and it is just as true of three as it is of two. If what he wants to do is to get an area of a reasonable size, and I see that he wants that, why does he not accept an Amendment which enables him to do the same thing in the case of all areas, and get, within the limits of a big burgh, a workable and reasonable area? The right hon. Gentleman suggested that one of the difficulties was that in the Lords Amendment the proposal was to make up the area containing less than 12,000 population by, if necessary, adding together two wards. Does he really think that would be done in cases where it was not necessary, or where serious difficulties would result? You could easily do it by confining it to two wards in place of three. There is nothing insuperable, unreasonable, or impracticable about it.

It is an important matter from a practical point of view. Suppose you have a large burgh divided, as all large burghs like Glasgow and Edinburgh are, into a great many wards, many of them containing but a small population, does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate as a practical possibility the absurdity which will ensue if within only certain of these comparatively small areas a particular kind of resolution is adopted, while in the rest of the areas the same resolution is rejected? You might conceivably—I am putting an extreme case—make a chess-board of a burgh, with prohibition areas, free areas, restricted licence areas, and if the right hon. Gentleman had given them a chance, disinterested management areas. It will mean chaos. The right hon. Gentleman says that would be a most interesting experiment. If that is the spirit in which the practical operation of this Bill is approached, I venture to say it will not only leave the area of the operation of this Bill a field of contest, but will make it worse, a field of ridicule. The right hon. Gentleman does not want that, and neither do I. If the experiment is to be tried at all, it must be tried under fair conditions. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, having accepted the Amendment to the extent he has, to consider gravely whether he will not take it all. He has conceded the enlargement of the area from 10,000 to 25,000 population in the case of a borough. I ask him to accept the very moderate application of that to wards within the borough which the Lords have adopted, namely, to insist that a ward or wards combined shall not contain less than 12,000 population. His own limit was 10,000 for a borough area as the Bill left the House. What is there unreasonable in asking for 12,000—less than half the borough population—as the limit of a ward? Having regard to the practical prospects of this Bill—a Bill to which everyone knows I am not a friend as it stands, but a Bill which, if it is to be passed, I want to see fairly tried, as every other Member for Scotland does—I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to take up this attitude of constant negation. I admit in the last few instances, where there were drafting Amendments, he has accepted some, but in this matter, which is a practical one, he might consider whether he will not go the whole way in the right direction in which he has already gone half way.


I much regret that the Secretary for Scotland has not seen his way to accept this Amendment. By rejecting half of it he has landed himself in a maze of inconsistency. He takes as his unit of a borough a population of 25,000, and he says that this Bill will not apply to any borough of less size than 25,000. But when he comes to deal with the larger cities he then takes the area of a ward,

and he forgets the difficulties which will arise in the large cities of Scotland, particularly in the Central Division of Glasgow where there is a residential population of about 2,500 people, but a daily population of between 200,000 and 300,000. The 2,500 voters there will have the power of saying whether these 200,000 or 300,000 people will be allowed intoxicating liquors or not. They will have the power of moving a no-licence resolution and depriving 250,000 business men of any refreshment. That is rather hard on the 250,000. If we had adopted the last Amendment the town council would have had the power of clubbing together two, three, or four of these wards and making them a single area. If the right hon. Gentleman had contented himself with leaving out the words "or parts of wards," he would have got over the difficulty which he has put before the House—the difficulty of an ad hoc area as he graphically described it—but so long as he adheres to the well-known wards of the City and permits the clubbing together of these various wards no difficulty of that sort will arise. The limitation of these wards are well known, and the putting of them together into a single area would be agreed upon. I therefore think he should have agreed to the Lords Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Lords Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 77; Noes, 214.

Division No. 583.] AYES. [10.42 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Goldman, C. S. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Anstruther-Gray, Major William Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Sanders, Robert A.
Barlow, Montague (Salford) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Sandys, G. J.
Barrie, H. T. Harrison-Broadley, H. B Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Smith, Harold(Warrington)
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Hewins, William Albert Samuel Spear, Sir John Ward
Bird, A. Hill-Wood, Samuel Stanier, Bevilie
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Hogge, James Myles Stewart, Gershom
Boyton, J. Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Talbot, Lord E.
Burn, Colonel C. R. Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)
Butcher, John George Larmor, Sir J. Thynne, Lord A.
Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Touche, George Alexander
Campion, W. R. Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Carlile, Sir Hildred Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Watt, Henry A.
Cassel, Felix Mount, William Arthur White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Wills, Sir Gilbert
Clyde, J. Avon O'Grady, James Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Wood, John(Stalybridge)
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Orde-Powiett, Hon. W. G. A. Worthington-Evans, L.
Craik, Sir Henry Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
Dairymple, Viscount Perkins, Walter Frank Yate, Colonel C. E.
Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Peto, Basil Edward
Fletcher, John Samuel Pollock, Ernest Murray TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Gardner, Ernest Pringle, William M. R. Rawlinson and Mr. Mackinder.
Gilmour, Captain J. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) O'Connor, T. P.(Liverpool)
Acland, Francis Dyke Hackett, John O'Doherty, Philip
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Hancock, J. G. O'Dowd, John
Ainsworth, John Stirling Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow)
Alden, Percy Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) O'Malley, William
Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) O'Shee, James John
Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) O'Sullivan, Timothy
Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) Hayden, John Patrick Outhwaite, R. L.
Barton, William Hazleton, Richard Parker, James (Halifax)
Beale, Sir William Phipson Healy, Maurice (Cork) Parry, Thomas H.
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Bentham, G. J. Helme, Sir Norval Watson Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Boland, John Pius Higham, John Sharp Pirie, Duncan V.
Booth, Frederick Handel Hinds, John Pointer, Joseph
Bowerman, C. W. Holmes, Daniel Turner Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Brady, P. J. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Raffan, Peter Wilson
Brocklehurst, W. B. Hudson, Walter Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Brunner, J. F. L. Hughes, S. L. Reddy, M.
Bryce, J. Annan Illingworth, Percy H. Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) Rendall, Atheistan
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) John, Edward Thomas Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Byles, Sir William Pollard Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Chancellor, H. G. Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Robinson, Sidney
Clancy, John Joseph Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) Roch, Walter F.
Clough, William Jowett, F. W. Roe, Sir Thomas
Clynes, J. R. Joyce, Michael Rowlands, James
Collins, G. P. (Greenock Keating, Matthew Rowntree, Arnold
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Kellaway, Frederick George Runciman, Rt. Hon Walter
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Kelly, Edward Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Cotton, William Francis Kennedy, Vincent Paul Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Kilbride, Denis Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Crooks, William King, Joseph Scanlan, Thomas
Crumley, Patrick Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Cullinan, John Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Sheehy, David
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim, S.)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Levy, Sir Maurice Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lewis, John Herbert Sutherland, J. E.
Dawes, J. A. London, T. Sutton, John E.
De Forest, Baron Lynch, A. A. Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Delany, William Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Tennant, Harold John
Dickinson, W. H. McGhee, Richard Thomas, J. H.
Donelan, Captain A. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Toulmin, Sir George
Doris, W. MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macpherson, James Ian Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Verney, Sir Harry
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) M'Callum, Sir John M. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Elverston, Sir Harold McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Wardle, George J.
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) M'Micking, Major Gilbert Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Essex, Sir Richard Walter Mason, David M. (Coventry) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Esslemont, George Birnie Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Farrell, James Patrick Meagher, Michael White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Whitehouse, John Howard
Ftrench, Peter Millar, James Duncan Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Field, William Molloy, M. Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Fitzgibbon, John Morrell, Philip Wiles, Thomas
Flavin, Michael Joseph Morison, Hector Wilkie, Alexander
George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Gladstone, W. G. C. Muldoon, John Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)
Glanville, H. J. Munro, R. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
Goldstone, Frank Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)
Greig, Colonel James William Needham, Christopher T. Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Griffith, Ellis Jones Nolan, Joseph
Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) Norton, Captain Cecil W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Wedgwood Benn and Mr. Webb.
Gulland, John William O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Lords further Amendment agreed to: In paragraph beginning "certificate," after the word "poll," insert the words "including any reconstruction of, addition to, or extension of such premises on the same or an adjoining site, and any premises in substitution for such premises from which the holder of the licence removes."

At end of paragraph commencing "certificate" insert the words "and provided, further, that subject to the variation of conditions prescribed by this Act the form of certificate for an inn and hotel or for a restaurant granted under Section three of this Act shall be, respectively, the first and second form prescribed by the Sixth Schedule of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903."

Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (b), of paragraph commencing "Elector," after the word "the" ["the supplementary register"], insert the words "last preceding."


I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Lords Amendment: Leave out the words "in the year nineteen hundred and sixteen."


I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Lords Admendment: In paragraph (b), leave out the words "under this Act in the year nineteen hundred and seventeen."

Lords Amendment: After "renewal" ["by way of renewal"], insert "or transfer."

Lords Amendment: In Schedule II., leave out 1, 2, 3 in the first column.

Lords Amendment: After "unchanged" ["shall remain unchanged"], insert the following:—