NEW CLAUSE.—(Women on Sub-committees of Insurance Committees.) (Hansard, 15 August 1913)

§ Mr. MASTERMAN
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." This is a Clause which the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) asked me to propose. I am not myself prepared to take the responsibility of the Clause as it stands, but I think that with amendment it may be made into a useful Clause.

§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON
This new Clause can be explained in a few words. Clause 59, Sub-section (2), paragraph (ii), of the principal Act, provides that Of the members appointed by the council of the county borough two at least shall be women, and of the members appointed by the Insurance Commissioners one at least shall be a duly qualified medical practitioner and two at least shall be women. Then Sub-section (4) provides that, The Insurance Commissioners may snake regulations as to the appointment, quorum, term of office, and rotation of members and proceedings generally (including the appointment of subcommittees consisting wholly or partly 3369 of members of the committee) of the committee, and the employment of officers and the provision of offices by the committee … I want to provide that on every subcommittee there shall be a female element—one woman. I expect that the right hon. Gentleman has a difficulty in his mind in this matter, and he will probably say that there are not a sufficient number of women members on the Insurance Committees to serve on the sub-committees also, and that there will be more sub-committees than women members on the Insurance Committee. I would point out that those sub-committees are not restricted to members of the Insurance Committee. The Insurance Commissioners may appoint these sub-committees, consisting wholly or partly of members of the committee. The Act provides also for the appointment of persons outside the Insurance Committees altogether. That being so, I think there will be ample opportunity on every subcommittee to have a woman member appointed.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
They are doing it.

§ Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON
I dare say they do in many cases, but I wish to provide that on every sub-committee, certainly the committees dealing with benefits, there should be a woman member. As to finance committees I do not want to lay down strictly that there should be a woman member, but I want on every committee dealing with benefits a woman member, and if the right hon. Gentleman can meet me half-way and introduce an Amendment to that effect, I will accept it.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
The Government are in complete sympathy with this proposal, but the hon. Gentleman has himself anticipated a practical difficulty. It might not be possible to secure this desirable improvement in every case, and he has suggested a modification which will meet the difficulty. There are strong reasons for women being put on the committees, but I think the hon. Gentleman is right in saying that it should be mandatory that on sub-committees dealing with benefits there should be women. Their services on these committees would be invaluable. I would suggest that words should be introduced to provide that there should be a woman member on every sub-committee for dealing with the administration of any benefits. I suggest as an Amendment, after the words "Insurance Committee," to insert the words "for dealing with the administration of any benefit"

§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON
I am prepared to accept that Amendment.

§ Mr. GLYN-JONES
Does that include medical benefit?

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
Yes.

Mr. BATHURST
I am bound to say as a member of an Insurance Committee that I feel some difficulty about this new Clause. Personally, I should prefer a measure of self-government left to the Insurance Committees. I think that they are far better equipped, and that they would be the best judges whether it is desirable to have women on their sub-committees or not. It is all very well to talk of the sub-committees dealing with benefits. On these committees there may be no great objection to have women, but I would point out that we may have a committee of eighty members and only four women all told available for sub-committees, and you may have thirty sub-committees. It may be said that outsiders can be appointed, but as a matter of fact we all know that outside persons are not being employed on these sub-committees. I do not sec any prospect in the ordinary course of outside persons being appointed to the sub-committees. I wish to carry this matter a step further. There are certain matters which have to be dealt with by these sub-committees and which it would not be desirable that women should consider. We have a case in the county of Gloucester to-day which has arisen through a dispute between a man suffering from an unpleasant disease and one of the doctors on the panel. I would deprecate very much that there should be women on a sub-committee which has to deal with a case like that. I am sure that she would not herself care to deal with it, because it is one wholly unsuited for her consideration.

§ Mr. BOOTH
Nonsense!

Mr. BATHURST
I would say to the hon. Member for Pontefract who so courteously interrupts me, that his observation emphasises the necessity of leaving this to Insurance Committees themselves. They can best judge whether such a case is or is not a proper matter to be considered by a woman member.

§ Mr. J. SAMUEL
No doubt there are difficulties, but the committees are getting women to serve on the sub-committees. I think it would be better to leave the new Clause as proposed by the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Mr. RENDALL
I hope the Clause will be accepted. It is not our business to lag behind public opinion, but rather to be in advance of it. I think the proposal of the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) should be supported.

§ Mr. STEPHEN GWYNN
Assuming that this Amendment is inserted in the Bill, and that what the hon. Member for the Wilton Division has put to the Committee, i.e., that there are at present not enough women on Insurance Committees to fill these offices, will it not be a necessary consequence and result of this Amendment that more women must be brought into the work of these Committees, and is not that desirable? It appears to me that if you do not make this suggested Amendment, the Insurance Committees may be deterred from appointing women for reasons such as the hon. Member for the Wilton Division has put forward—reasons which appear to my mind to be pretty much what the hon. Member for Pontefract has described. I hope sincerely that this Clause will be put into the Bill.

§ Mr. C. BATHURST
I wish to move, after the word "every" ["every sub-committeee"], to insert the word "standing." I want to rule out the case of subcommittees appointed ad hoc, possibly to consider, in camera, matters of the kind to which I have referred.

§ Mr. MASTERMAN
They would not be sub-committees within the meaning of this Clause.

§ Mr. CHARLES ROBERTS
These are special sub-committees appointed under the regulations of the Insurance Commissioners under Section 59 of the principal Act. I quite see the hon. Member's point. You may have sub-committees for some special purpose on which it is not really necessary that women should sit. They would be special sub-committees formed under the terms of this Act. Would it meet the case to say that they should be formed by the Insurance Committee "for the purpose of dealing with any benefit under Section 59 of the principal Act, and that the terms of that Act be varied accordingly?" That would mean that it would only deal with special committees appointed under the regulations.

§ Mr. BATHURST
I quite agree, and, to my mind, it would meet the case, but I should like to hear the view of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

§ Mr. GLYN-JONES
In the regulations there is a special sub-committee referred to as the medical service sub-committee, which deals with all complaints as between doctors and insured persons. It is provided that insured persons shall have three representatives on that committee, and that there shall also be three doctors. It may be quite inconvenient, out of the whole committee of eighty, to say that one of the three representatives of the insured persons must be a woman.

§ Mr. MASTERMAN
Perhaps I can make a suggestion. It is to insert that at least one woman shall, "except as otherwise prescribed," be appointed on all these subcommittees. I think there may be a real case in the one advanced by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stepney, and there may be a case in connection with what has been put forward by the hon. Member for the Wilton, Division. That is provided for in the regulations at present, and you merely give us power, "except as otherwise prescribed," to meet this particular kind of case.

§ Mr. NEWTON
I should prefer the right hon. Gentleman to have promised to study the case, consider the difficulties, and take the necessary steps on Report. What we are doing now is to put on the Commissioners the whole responsibility for dealing with the situatiton. Either we do or we do not want to bring women on to these bodies. If we accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman we shall be doing absolutely nothing. I therefore very much prefer the right hon. Gentleman should undertake to look into the matter, and bring forward something which we can approve on Report.

§ Mr. MASTERMAN
I am quite willing to do that. If we pass the Clause as amended, I will look into the question.

§ Sir P. MAGNUS
I understand that the committees can appoint women on all these sub-committees if they think fit, and I venture to suggest we had very much better leave the matter as it is with this option, than, at this stage, proceed to pass a mandatory resolution. Therefore I shall oppose this addition to the Clause.

§ Mr. BATHURST
I think the fault lies in the fact that under the original Act the 3373 number of women is limited to four. For my part, I should imagine that the best Amendment the right hon. Gentleman could propose would be to extend that limit and make the number something like eight, so as to have a larger choice, and thereby secure the possibility of a larger representation of women on these committees. That is where the weakness lies. I think it is desirable to have some such Amendment, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman, whatever he puts down on Report, will take into consideration the advisability of adopting that step also. I am prepared to withdraw any Amendment.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I beg to move, after the words "Insurance Committee," to insert the words "for dealing with the administration of any benefit." I understand that the hon. Member is willing to accept my suggestion.

§ Mr. CASSEL
Does not that include every single sub-committee?

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
Every sub-committee dealing with the administration of benefits.

§ Mr. CASSEL
Every sub-committee will be dealing with the administration of benefits, for that is the only thing for which Insurance Committees exist. They will be dealing with the administration of benefits, whether finance or anything else.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I followed the hon. Member with great care and sympathy. He specially said "I do, not want to include them on Finance Committees. But I want them wherever I can on committees dealing with benefits, where the value of their services will be very great." If this Clause were accepted—I quite understand that the hon. Member for the University of London takes an entirely different view, which he should have an opportunity of expressing—any administrative difficulty that may arise can be carefully considered before the Report stage, and we can see whether it is necessary to add the words "subject to the regulations under Section 59." If we understand exactly the purport of what is aimed at, there need be no difficulty in making it quite clear before we add the final piece of machinery to the Bill.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
I do not think it would be possible for this Amendment to work. There are not enough women to go round. I do not know what committees there are except those that deal with the administration of benefits in one form or another.

§ Mr. BATHURST
There is the sanatorium Committee.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
Women will not be put on the Finance Committee, but, at any rate, we shall have to have more women on the Insurance Commission before the Amendment can be made operative.

§ Mr. DAWES
My experience is totally different from that of the hon. Member for Colchester. The London Committee is pretty typical, and we have no trouble whatever in getting women to serve. We have them on all sub-committees, including the Finance Committee, and one of the ladies on that committee is about the most useful member of the committee. I certainly think that this is a very desirable Amendment.

§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON
I do not think my hon. Friend realises that under the Act the Insurance Commissioners have already made regulations for the appointment of these sub-committees. They are not restricted to the members of the Insurance Committee, and they may go out into the highways and byways to choose whom they like to serve. It is, therefore, perfectly easy, in appointing a sub-committee, to go outside and choose a woman member. I think this is a most important Amendment.