§ "(1) For the purpose of providing institutions a county council in Scotland shall have power to borrow in terms of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889, on the security of the general purposes rate, as applied by Section 80 of the principal Act, such sums as may be required, and shall have power to acquire, purchase, or take on lease any land; and the provisions of Section 5 of The Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1908, shall apply accordingly as if this Act were specified therein.
§ (2) Expenses of a district committee defrayed out of the public health general assessment within the district in pursuance of an agreement under the principal Act or this Act, or in the exercise of any power of dealing with tuberculosis as an infectious disease, shall not be reckoned in any calculation as to the statutory limit of that assessment."
§ Clause brought up, and read the first time.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTThis is really a very small point, and I think everyone will agree to take it as non-controversial. Some doubt has been expressed as to whether a county council in Scotland has power to borrow for the purpose of establishing sanatoria. Personally, I believe that they have power. I think it is contained in the original Act by implication, but doubts have been expressed on the matter, and this first Subsection is inserted merely for the purpose of settling those doubts. I think it will be generally agreed that for the purposes of establishing the sanatoria, the county council should have power to borrow. The next Section deals with the question of rating for tuberculosis purposes. At pre- 3360 sent there are limits to the amount of the rate which district committees are able to levy, and those limits do not exist in the case of other authorities in Scotland. The object here is to make it clear that this limit shall not specially apply to the district committees, but that they shall be in the same position as the other authorities.
§ Sir H. CRAIKThere is a Clause in my name on page 53 which essentially belongs to the same subject. The right hon. Gentleman has accepted it, and I think it would come in here as part of the Clause now moved.
§ The CHAIRMANI think it is one of the cases of which I spoke at the beginning of our proceedings—I mean those cases which the Committee empowered the clerks at the Table to group together in one Clause.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI thought it would be convenient to move it now as part of the Clause.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman may move it when we have read this Clause a second time.
§ Mr. AINSWORTHI should like to confirm what has fallen from my hon. Friend as to the necessity of a Clause of this kind for Scotland. In order to show the Committee that we are only asking for what is fair, I may say that we only desire the same terms for the county councils as those which are already enjoyed by the borough councils of Scotland. I hope, therefore, my right hon. Friend who is in charge of the Bill will accept it.
Mr. BATHURSTDoes this Clause in fact carry out what the promoters of it desire I We start with the expression "For the purposes of providing institutions." It is not pointed out what those institutions are intended to be. They might be any kind of institution. They might, for instance, be a Salvation Army Shelter. Surely you must ticket the institution, or insert that it is some institution referred to in some Section of the principal Act. I only want the matter to be made clear. I do not, for my part, understand what Sub-section (2) means. I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow fully understands the meaning of that Section, and I, who am not conversant with the legal phraseology of Scotland or with the institutions in Scotland, am certainly in considerable doubt as to what is meant. Can 3361 the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the Treasury, give us some further interpretation of the meaning of Subsection (2)?
§ Mr. JONATHAN SAMUELThere is a very important principle involved in this new Clause, the effect of which I am afraid my hon. Friend does not quite apprehend. If the Amendment of the Member for Glasgow University is carried, I think that ought to be quite ample; for this reason, that there are no district committees which are not part of the county committees. District committees are really sub-committees appointed by the county insurance committees.
§ Mr. MASTERMANNo. All these Scottish Clauses which we have accepted have been submitted to the Lord Advocate. I have starred no Scotch Clause at all, except those which the Lord Advocate has seen and considered desirable, and also which carry out legally the desires of the promoters. Sub-section (1) of this merely gives to the Scottish county councils the same power which the English county councils possess. It. is a technicality of Scotch law with which I am not familiar, but that, I understand, is the intention of the promoters. I believe it is generally agreed by Scottish Members of all parties that this should be done. The Section has nothing to do with the Insurance District Committees, but with the district committees of the county council, which correspond to the English or rural committees, and this merely removes a limit which exists in Scotland but does not exist in England.
§ Mr. FORSTERI think the Committee will gather from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that we are now asked to make an alteration in the general law by means of a Clause, which is not a Government Clause, in connection with an Insurance Amending Bill. I really do not think it is a form of procedure the Committee should agree to. In the first place, I submit it is out of Order, and in the second place I think the Government really must limit the Clauses that they now ask the Committee to accept to Amendments in the Insurance Act, and not let them spread to Amendments in the general law of the land. Therefore I should suggest, and I think I shall get the support of the hon. Gentleman opposite, that we should at any rate limit the power of providing institutions to institutions which 3362 are required for the carrying out of the Insurance Act.
§ The CHAIRMANIf the words of the principal Act did not occur in both Subsections, I should certainly rule them out of order.
§ Dr. ADDISONIn the absence of any Scottish Member to intervene, it seems to me there is some misapprehension as to what this really means. In Scotland there are district committees which carry on sanitary work under the County Council which have a limit to their powers of assessment. The County Council is given certain duties under the National Insurance Act, Section 64, in respect of the treatment of tuberculosis some of which must be carried out by the district committees. This simply provides that the work so carried out by the district committees in respect of their assessment for other purposes or for public health duties will not count. It simply puts the machinery in operation which Section 64 of the Act explains.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSAs I understood the Financial Secretary, he said these district committees have nothing to do with the committees under the Insurance Act. They are not insurance committees, and they are not district committees in the technical sense in which "district" is used in the Insurance Act, but it is an outside body altogether. What the second Sub-section appears to be doing is to give some local government authority power to increase its borrowing powers. Surely that is outside the scope of this Act. The only way in which it can be dragged into the Act at all is to say that some authority under this Act wishes to make an agreement with the District Committee and that the District Committee has to pay part of the expense and that that expense ought not to come in its ordinary assessment.
§ The CHAIRMANIt is difficult to deal with two points of Order at once, but with regard to the objection that is taken to Sub-section (1) an Amendment has been handed in to insert after the word "institutions" the words "for the treatment of tuberculosis." With regard to Sub-section (2) it simply refers to the powers given by the local authorities in this respect under Section 16, paragraph (o), of the principal Act, and it is limited, as I understand, to that scope.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSIt may be intended to have a limit, but I submit that there is no limit whatever in the Clause.
§ The CHAIRMANThen I am prepared to take Amendments, if necessary, when we come to add the Clause to the Bill, but that is not the reading as I am informed, and as I interpret the Subsection, "In pursuance of agreements under principal Act," and that agreement the Committee will find in paragraph (a) of Section 16 of the principal Act.
§ Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "institutions" ["for the purpose of providing institutions"], to insert the words "for the treatment of tuberculosis."
§ Mr. CASSELWhy should you not follow the wording of the principal Act in Section 8, Sub-section (1) (b): "Treatment in sanatoria or other institutions or otherwise when suffering from tuberculosis or such other diseases as the Local Government Board, with the approval of the Treasury, may appoint." Speaking generally may I say there has recently been a case in Scotland when the Scotch judges expressed themselves very strongly indeed about the way in which the Scotch Clauses of the original Act were drafted and said they could hardly imagine how they had come to be drafted in the way they were, and now that we are dealing with this in the absence of the Lord Advocate, or of anyone representing the Scotch Law Officers, I am rather afraid we are likely to get into a bungle.
Mr. BATHURSTI was about to raise the same question, but it is perfectly clear that Section 16 refers not merely to tuberculosis but to other diseases as well, and I was going to propose, as an Amendment to the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, to leave out the word "tuberculosis," and insert "for the purposes of Section 16 of the principal Act." It is Section 16 of the principal Act which is apparently referred to here and which authorises the insurance committees to provide these institutions both for tuberculosis and other diseases.
§ Mr. MASTERMANIt is largely a matter of drafting. Perhaps it would be simplest to take the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Cassel) and repeat the words of the original Act.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI beg to move, after the word "institutions" ["for the purpose of providing institutions"], to insert the words "for the treatment of tuberculosis or any such other diseases as the Local Government Board for Scotland, with the approval of the Treasury, may appoint."
§ Mr. AINSWORTHI believe I have the approval of all hon. Members for Scotland in saying that if these words can be settled with the approval of the Lord Advocate we shall be perfectly satisfied. I only say that because I think it will save my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill and the Committee a great deal of trouble.
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI beg to move, in Sub-section (2) of the proposed Clause, after the word "committee" ["expenses of a district committee"], to insert the words "incurred for the purpose of administering sanatorium benefit." I understand it is desired to exclude from the limit of assessment any expenditure which may be made for the purpose of administering sanatorium benefit.
§ Mr. GLYN-JONESDoes the hon. Member appreciate this? If the position in Scotland is as it is in England, these authorities are to have power to treat tuberculosis in respect of the whole population, and it is on that ground that they are entitled to have the grant. If these, words are put in they seem to me to limit the power to the administration of sanatorium benefit, which would only deal with insured persons. If the position in Scotland as it is in England, surely you do not want these words in.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI will ask the hon. Member to withdraw the Amendment. We are merely repeating the same words for the district committees as apply to the town councils in Section 80, Sub-section (13) of the principal Act—
Expenses incurred by a town council under this part of this Act shall be defrayed out of the public health general assessment but shall not be reckoned in any calculation as to the statutory limit of that assessment and references to the borough fund or borough rate shall be construed accordingly.We are now simply applying that same provision almost in terms to the expenses of 3365 the district committee, and I understand that all parties and all members for Scotland desire such change.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI am quite willing to accept that Amendment if the right hon. Gentleman will move it. As it is, we are given an unknown authority, which ought to be defined, and if the right hon. Gentleman says that is the proper way to define it I am quite willing to accept it.
§ Mr. CASSELI do not know what are district committees in Scotland. I am not familiar with Scotch procedure, and I do not know that there is such a thing as a district committee in Scotland. There is such a thing as a district insurance committee—that is under Section 59—but I am not aware that the expression "district committee" occurs anywhere in the whole of the original Act.
§ Mr. MASTERMANWe are exploring in a rather unknown land, but I am assured that "district committee" in Scotland has a statutory definition, and is a county public authority parallel to the rural district council in England.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSMy object in moving this Amendment was to limit the power to a definite object. The right hon. Gentleman, I understood, said he did not like the form of words, but would propose some others.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI am repeating exactly the words of the principal Act applying to boroughs, that is in pursuance of an agreement under the principal Act or this Act, and that limits the powers entirely to agreements made under this Section.
§ Mr. NEWTONI have listened to the Debate, and I feel that I am still supremely ignorant of what it is that is going to be done. The one sentence of the right hon. Gentleman that I really understood and appreciated was when he said we were travelling in an unknown land. It then occurred to me that it would be more business like on his part if he arranged to provide us with a pilot for these unknown districts in which we are invited to travel.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI will insist on my Amendment because these words to which the Financial Secretary calls attention do not limit the objects of 3366 the payment. They simply say "these payments are to be made in pursuance of an agreement," but they may be payments for any purpose whatever, without any limit so far as I can see.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI think some of the Members on this side have found a mare's nest. It is difficult to explain the whole of local government in Scotland, but "district committee" is surely well known to all Scotch Members as a statutory authority, and the district committee is the public health authority. As a matter of practice, in the treatment of tuberculosis it is found much more expedient and a much better arrangement that the work should be carried out by the county council and dealt with, not in the small area of a district committee, but over the whole country. To adjust the expenditure between these different bodies this is essential. It is for that purpose that these Clauses are introduced, and they are introduced with the agreement of the Insurance Commissioners for Scotland, the Local Government Board for Scotland and the Association of County Councils for Scotland. I do think, therefore, that hon. Members, however meritorious their interest in Scottish affairs may be, should be perfectly agreeable to leave this matter to us.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSAfter the very interesting explanation which we have had from my hon. Friend (Sir H. Craik) I think Members of Committee for the first time will be able to understand what is proposed to be done by this Clause. This Clause was put on the Paper by the Government, and it was moved without one word of explanation from them. After many contradictory explanations from various amateurs on the other side, a real professional has come and explained what it is. I think, in the circumstances, I need not trouble the Committee further.
§ Mr. W. BOYLEI want to congratulate the hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Craik) on the speech which he has just delivered, and I think I ought to resent the attack which was made on Scottish Home Rule by the hon. Gentleman.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. BATHURSTI beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the words "infections disease" [tuberculosis as an infectious disease"], to insert the words "or other disease as aforesaid." I move this Amend- 3367 ment in order that diseases other than tuberculosis may be dealt with. I think these words are necessary.
§ Mr. MASTERMANPerhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to consider the Amendment on the Report stage.
Mr. BATHURSTI will agree to that if, on the Report stage, the right hon. Gentleman will make the Amendment if he considers it necessary.
§ Mr. MASTERMANCertainly, if it is necessary, I shall have it inserted.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2) to add the words, "A county council in Scotland that has been authorised by the Board to provide an institution in terms of Section sixty-four, Sub-section (2), of the principal Act shall have the same powers of providing treatment for all persons suffering from tuberculosis as are possessed by local authorities under The Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, for the treatment of infectious diseases."
It would be found more convenient in the treatment of tuberculosis to deal with the disease, not in small local areas, but in the wider areas of county councils. This Amendment is to make certain that county councils have the power to act. The district committees are quite ready to leave them to carry this out. There is some little doubt, as Members of the Committee know, whether tuberculosis is an infectious disease or not. We wish to make it quite clear that there is no doubt about that, in order that it may be dealt with by county councils as proposed.
Mr. WORTHINGTON- EVANSNotwithstanding my hon. Friend's lucid explanation of the Amendment, it leaves me in a little doubt as to the relative positions of Scotland and England. Are you thus giving greater power to Scotland than England has got, or is this only a leveling-up of the power of Scotland to that of England? My recollection is that the English local authorities have not got power to treat tuberculosis in the same way as small-pox, scarlet fever, and other notifiable diseases. If the Amendment is only to level Scotland up to England, I 3368 have no objection to it, but if it is to put Scotland ahead of England, I wish England to have the same power.
§ Dr. ADDISONThe local authorities in England have certain powers under the Public Health Act. Under the principal Act the county councils are required to do certain things, but hitherto in England they have not been the public health authorities. I agree that it is desirable to bring the county councils in England up to the same level as those in Scotland in respect of administration in matters of health. There is an Amendment on the paper later on with that in view.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Question, "That the Clause, as amended, be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.