§ 18. Mr. CARR-GOMMasked the Home Secretary whether the Royal Commission on London Traffic (1905) recommended that, if the London County Council be given general power to regulate by by-law the routes of vehicles, omnibuses should be excepted from their jurisdiction, and that authority to regulate the routes of omnibuses should be given to some independent person or body, such as the Commissioners of Police; and if he will, by legislation, carry out this suggestion, in view of the fact that there is no control at present over the routes of omnibuses in London?
§ Mr. McKENNAI am aware of the Report of the Royal Commission on the subject, but as I said a few days ago, in reply to the hon. Member for South St. Pancras, I do not at present see any prospect of Parliament finding time to discuss a Bill on this very controversial matter. In any case, the duty of deciding between the general interests of the public and the special interests of the residents on any proposed line of route seems to be one that could hardly be imposed on the Commissioner of Police without interfering with his proper duties, which are already sufficiently extensive and onerous.
§ 19. Mr. KELLAWAYasked if the Home Department was represented at any of the inquests held on the 120 persons killed by motor omnibuses this year?
§ Mr. McKENNAThe police attended all these inquests. The procedure in cases of serious or fatal accident laid down by standing Regulation is that the local police 820 are required to obtain the assistance of an officer from the public carriage branch possessed of the technical knowledge required to enable him to ascertain the cause of the accident, and to form an, opinion as to whether, under the circumstances, anyone could be held responsible.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYAre we to take it that the only persons legally represented at a great many of these inquests are the trust responsible for the deaths, and that neither the Home Office nor the relatives of the persons killed are represented?
§ Mr. McKENNAThe omnibus company involved may, of course, be legally represented, but also the injured persons may be represented by legal persons.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYAs a matter of fact, is not the state of things that in the majority of these inquests the dependents of the killed persons are never represented, and the facts are put before the coroner by one side only?
§ Mr. McKENNAI think the coroner would see to it that both sides have fair play.
§ Mr. KINGWill the right hon. Gentleman, as an experiment, instruct one of his officers to attend these inquests, say, for the next month?
§ Mr. McKENNANo, Sir. I think no distinction should be drawn between persons killed by omnibuses and any other fatal accidents, but I will consider whether anything can be done.
§ 20. Mr. KELLAWAYasked the Secretary of State if he is aware that London motor omnibus drivers, plying on routes where there is competition with electric trams, make a. practice of using the same stopping places as the trams and of driving into groups of people getting on or off the trams; and whether, as such a practice is dangerous and causes much alarm to women and children, he will instruct the police to put a stop to it?
§ Mr. McKENNAIt is an unfortunate necessity, when tram lines are laid down in a thoroughfare, that overtaking vehicles are forced to pass on the near side of the tram instead of on the off. It is a fact that in many places trams and omnibuses have the same stopping points, because so many of these stopping points coincide with busy cross-traffic centres, but it is a disputed point whether there is greater 821 danger to persons alighting if the omnibus stops opposite the tram or runs by without stopping. The subject of tram and omnibus stopping places is receiving special consideration. The police would certainly take proceedings against any driver acting in the manner referred to by my hon. Friend.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYIs my right hon. Friend aware that at an inquest held on Saturday the jury found the driver had been guilty of the very conduct which the Home Office says the police should proceed against them for?
§ Mr. McKENNAIf the facts are as stated by my hon. Friend, the police will proceed.
§ Sir WILLIAM BYLESWhy should they be forced to pass upon the inner side?
§ Mr. McKENNAThe rule of the road in such cases.
§ 21. Mr. KELLAWAYasked the Secretary of State whether he will make inquiries as to whether the pay of London motor omnibus drivers to some extent depends on the number of trips completed or miles run instead of their being paid a fixed wage; and, if he should find this to be the practice, whether he will, in the interests of public safety, use his powers as the licensing authority to put a stop to it?
§ Mr. McKENNAAs I stated on 30th July, in reply to a question by my hon. Friend, the men receive a fixed daily wage, but I am informed that they are required to do a given number of trips, and in cases of breakdown a small deduction is made from their pay. Such breakdowns are, I understand, now rare.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYWill the right hon. Gentleman let the omnibus trusts know that, in his opinion, it is undesirable that the pay of the men should depend upon the number of trips?
§ Mr. McKENNAI twice explained to my hon. Friend the pay of the men does not depend on the number of trips they make.
§ 22. Mr. KELLAWAYasked the Secretary of State if his attention has been called to the prosecution at Stratford Police Court on Saturday of a number of motor omnibus drivers for exceeding the speed limit, and to the suggestion of the magistrates that a speedometer should be 822 fitted to such vehicles; and whether he will make it a condition of licensing motor omnibuses that they shall be supplied with a mechanical device which shall give audible warning as soon and as long as the speed limit is being exceeded?
§ Mr. McKENNAAs regards the first part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on the 30th October to the hon. Member for South West Ham. The proposal indicated in the second part of the question was carefully considered in the time of my predecessor, but it was decided that its advantages were more than counterbalanced by its disadvantages.
§ 24. Mr. KELLAWAYasked how many persons were killed by motor omnibuses in London during October?
§ Mr. McKENNAFifteen persons were killed by motor omnibuses within the Metropolitan Police district during the month of October.
§ Mr. WATTIs it admitted by the right hon. Gentleman1 s Department that those lives should be saved by Regulations his Department makes and may we take it that his Department admits the responsibility for those lives lost by the weakness of their Regulations dealing with traffic?
§ Mr. McKENNANo, Sir. We have no power cither to limit the number of omnibuses nor to prescribe the routes they should take.
§ Mr. CARR-GOMMIs it not a fact that the traffic of London is controlled by the police under an Act passed fifty years ago, which was framed to deal with traffic of an entirely different nature to that of the present time?
§ Mr. McKENNAThat is so.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he docs not consider a death rate of 180 persons per year killed by omnibuses—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is a matter of opinion.
§ 28. Mr. KELLAWAYasked the Secretary of State if he has received from a representative conference of extra-Metropolitan municipal authorities held on Thursday a request that, in view of the fact that motor omnibuses, as at present run, constitute a danger to life and cause 823 great damage to the roads, he would appoint a Select Committee, with a view to immediate legislation; and, if so, whether he proposes to agree to that request?
§ Mr. McKENNAI have received the representation referred to. I fear that legislation cannot in any case be immediate; but if it has to be deferred, an inquiry by a Select Committee may be useful. I will consider whether such a Committee should be appointed.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYBefore announcing his decision, will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the information is communicated to the House before it is communicated to the Motor Omnibus Trust?
§ Mr. McKENNAI am at a loss to understand what the hon. Member means.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYIs my right hon. Friend aware that the only conference so far called was a conference of the Motor Omnibus Trust?
§ Mr. McKENNAMy hon. Friend is entirely mistaken. He talks of the Motor Omnibus Trust, whereas the only conference that has taken place with the Home Office was with all the representatives of the motor omnibus companies. To say it was only with the Motor Omnibus Trust is absolutely unjust.
§ Sir J. D. REESMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in dealing with this question, he will compare the accidents from motor vehicles with those caused by non-motor vehicles, which, according to the figures given to the hon. Member for East Nottingham, appear to be almost as numerous?
§ Mr. McKENNAThat, of course, would be a question the Select Committee would have to inquire into very carefully.
§ 61. Mr. WATTasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of persons knocked down by the tramway cars in the city of Glasgow during the present year, but saved from death by the protecting guards; and whether this figure induces his Department to reduce the speed limit of these cars below sixteen miles per hour in view of the fact that the streets are very crowded thoroughfares?
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Buxton)According to the reports furnished to the Board of Trade by the 824 Glasgow Corporation, 138 persons during the first nine months of this year, who were knocked down by or fell in front of tram-cars in Glasgow, were picked up on the lifeguards. In very few of these cases do the reports show that the speed of the cars approached sixteen miles per hour at the time of the accident; in fact in only 10 per cent, of the cases is the speed stated to have exceeded ten miles per hour. These figures would not seem to indicate that the maximum speed of sixteen miles an hour allowed on certain parts only of the Glasgow tramway system should be reduced.
§ Mr. WATTMay we take it that the Department of the right hon. Gentleman will collaborate with the Commissioner appointed by the Home Office, and that the inquiry will not be confined to the Metropolitan area, but will be extended to other cities?
§ Mr. BUXTONIf the right hon. Gentleman will put down a question, I will try and answer it, but it is a matter rather for the Home Office than for me.