HC Deb 05 June 1912 vol 39 cc128-30
16. Mr. CHARLES BATHURST

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Development Commissioners have recommended that a Grant of £2,000 be made this year out of the Development Fund to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society for the promotion of agricultural co-operation in Ireland; if so, what conditions, if any, have been attached to such recommendation, and has the society consented to comply with them?

Mr. MASTERMAN

The Development Commission have recommended the Treasury to make a Grant of £2,000 to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society subject to the acceptance by the society of certain conditions, the chief of which refer to the addition of outside members to the governing body of the society and to the exclusion from affiliation with the society of any societies engaged in co-operation other than that of a purely agricultural nature. The recommendation is now under the consideration of the Treasury.

Mr. LOUGH

May I ask my hon. Friend whether this Grant will be with the consent of the Irish Government; and, if so, whether that Government have consented to the Grant?

Mr. MASTERMAN

The Irish Government will certainly be consulted in the matter before the Grant is made.

17. Mr. CHARLES BATHURST

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether, in pursuance of the scheme under which it is proposed to make an annual Grant to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society out of the Development Fund, his Department, the Congested Districts Board and the Council of Agriculture, have nominated, or propose to nominate, four, three, and four representatives, respectively, to serve upon the committee of the society, or whether any and, if any, what objection to such nomination has been officially put forward?

Mr. T. W. RUSSELL (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture,) Ireland

The Development Commissioners have addressed a letter to the Department, dated 22nd May, announcing their intention to recommend a Grant to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society (for the period ending 30th June), one of the conditions being that the Department, the Congested Districts Board and the Council of Agriculture, should nominate four, three, and four representatives, respectively, to sit on the committee of the society; and stating that in the event of the three bodies named declining to nominate representatives the Commissioners would be prepared to suggest other arrangements, with the sanction of the Treasury, for the administration of the Grant. As regards the Congested Districts Board, the Department are not in a position to make any reply, as that Board is a body wholly independent of the Department. The duties of the Council of Agriculture are prescribed by Statute; and, apart from the election of a portion of the Agricultural and Technical Instruction Boards, its functions are of a purely advisory character. It would be irregular, if not illegal, to ask the council to carry out executive work of the nature suggested. In addition, the distinction which the Development Commissioners attempt to make between the elected and the nominated members of the council is, in the Department's opinion, illegal. The Department, the Agricultural Board and the Council of Agriculture, having all strongly pronounced against the giving of a State subsidy to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, it would be impossible for me to comply with the Development Commissioners' request, and I have informed the Development Commissioners accordingly.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

Is the effect of that that no Grant will be made by the Development Commissioners to Ireland?

Mr. RUSSELL

No, Sir. That is not the tenour of the letter of the Department. The Development Commissioners state that if the Department refuse to nominate representatives they will find other methods of making the Grant with the sanction of the Treasury.

Mr. C. BATHURST

Do the Department propose to continue to take up a hostile attitude, assuming that the Commissioners themselves appoint these nominees of the three bodies?

Mr. RUSSELL

The position of the Department is this: The Department itself, its two statutory advisory bodies, the great majority of the county councils, the whole of the traders of the country, and a very large majority of the Parliamentary representatives of the country, are all hostile and the Department cannot neglect that combination.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

Is not the effect of the answer of the right hon. Gentleman that he and his Department will do their best to prevent the Grant being made to Ireland?

Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS

If the House expresses the opinion that this thing ought to be done, will the Department of the right hon. Gentleman obey the orders of this House?

Mr. RUSSELL

If that is done the Department will have to.

Mr. BONAR LAW

Are we to understand, from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, that he and his Department are fighting the Treasury; and, if so, which does he think will get the better of it?

Mr. RUSSELL

No, I am not engaged in any such contest. I am fighting eight English gentlemen who seem to think that they know more about Irish needs than the Irish people themselves.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

To which English gentlemen does the right hon. Gentleman refer?

Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS

Have not these eight English gentlemen been appointed by Act of Parliament and this Parliament?

Lord ROBERT CECIL

No, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer the question: To what English gentlemen he refers, and whether the Development Commissioners were appointed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]