HC Deb 27 February 1912 vol 34 cc1261-72

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £120, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1912, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Establishment of the Crofters Commission."


May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, the Lord Advocate, to be good enough to tell the Committee how this additional expense is made up. Fifty pounds more was taken this year than for the previous year in the original Estimate, and that, with this Estimate, makes an increase this year of £170 for these Commissioners. I do not know whether, in view of the fact that their functions are coming to an end that they have been having a farewell trip round their district to say good-bye to those they have been benefiting. Either that must be the case, or there have been more demands than usual for the reduction of rents, in which event more frequent visits have had to be paid than those anticipated in the original Estimate. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us exactly what occurred.


The question is a perfectly fair one. It so happens that this year is the first year since the Crofters Act was passed that the original Estimate has been exceeded. The reason for that is that this year they were found to be many more disputes in connection with common grazing. The extra sum is not in connection with the fixing of fair rents, but is in connection with common grazing under a comparatively recent Act. Considerable expense is incurred if farms have to be visited, as they had in this case, in the Outer Hebrides.


I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £20. We ought to look with the greatest possible jealously at increases of this particular description. When we look at the original Estimate we find there are only five people who could possibly have travelled. There is the Chief Commissioner, who gets £1,000 a year and another £800 as Under-Sheriff of Renfrewshire. There are two sub-Commissioners, a secretary, a clerk and assistant clerk. I suppose the gentleman who has been attending to these grazing matters would be the grazings officer. If that is the gentleman who has had £920 of travelling this year instead of £800, I think it is a little bit of a scandal that a gentleman with a salary of £150 a year, which is presumably all he is worth, should be travelling about the distant Hebrides and other parts of Scotland at a cost of no less than £920 a year. I am aware that it is not permissible in discussing Supplementary Estimates to entrench upon the principle of granting money, but when you see a Department like this which is spending £5,000 a year, of which the duties are practically over, I think we are entitled to a little more information. That sum represents £150,000 of capital at 3 per cent., and the question arises whether it would not be cheaper to buy up some more land at a cost of £150,000, and thereby save this £5,000 a year, and all these travelling expenses. It is not sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman to tell us that there has been extra duties to do this year. This is a very subordinate Department, which has little to do with the Crofters Commission, and yet it has cost £920 for travelling. I think we should press for some explicit statement as to how this enormous sum has been spent in travelling. If you take these five gentlemen of which the Commission consists, and of which this grazings officer with £150 a year is one, and if you divide up these travelling expenses, you find that, on the average, the gentlemen who constitute this Commission—one of whom must have spent a considerable portion of his time in Renfrewshire attending to his duties as sheriff—have spent about £200 apiece in travelling. I live in Liverpool, and I have to attend the meetings of this House, but I do not spend that much a year in travelling. If the right hon. Gentleman himself had been travelling about with the Commission, seeing that they did their duty, and he had to be attended with that state which ought to accompany a high official of the Government, I could understand £920 not being exorbitant, but in the circumstances I think these Commissioners and sub-Commissioners and the grazings officer have spent a great deal too much in travelling. I therefore move to reduce the Vote by £20.


I should like to support the appeal for more particulars with regard to these travelling expenses. Nine hundred pounds is a very large sum for travelling. The right hon. Gentleman has said that communications are difficult in the Western Hebrides. Then that is true, but they are cheap. I think it would be more satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman would give us as an illustration some comparatively minute details with regard to these expenses. He could tell us what the first-class fare would be from Edinburgh to the Lewis, what hotel accommodation was enjoyed on that voyage, whether these travelling officials had anything to do with the policy pursued in regard to certain islands, Barra and others, and whether or not the policy which the Government pursued in regard to those islands necessitated any of this first-class travelling. If we were made aware that this very large sum for travelling had been so occasioned I think a good many Members might be inclined to support the reduction which has been moved, and which I shall certainly support, unless we have some more satisfactory explanation from the right hon. Gentleman.


When I first examined this Supplementary Estimate it appeared to me that the sum required was so small that we might well pass the amount without very much consideration. But after the speeches which have been made, I think there is something in the objections which have been made, and therefore the Vote requires further consideration before it is actually passed. It would be advisable that some further details should be given us, apart from the very general statement which the right hon. Gentleman thought was all that was necessary, as to whether the actual expenses have been incurred. The right hon. Gentleman made a very general statement in regard to the Outer Hebrides, and indicated that a considerable amount of additional travelling expenditure had been incurred in connection with the visit of the Commission over that portion of the sphere of their activity. But that was only a very general indication, and one particular detail of this additional expenditure, and I would ask whether the right hon. Gentleman could not give any indication as to whether that is the only direction in which their activities have been quickened or whether we are to assume that this Commission is now ranging over a much wider sphere than was originally intended.

The right hon. Gentleman urged that this was the first year in which the Vote had been exceeded. That is all the more reason why a very careful investigation should be made, although the amount is a very small one. Unless that is done we are setting a very bad precedent. At the bottom of the page there is a note to the effect that the additional sum is required for travelling in consequence of the Commission being engaged in the country to a greater extent than was anticipated. What is the meaning of that phrase "in the country"? Where was the Commission originally intended to operate? Was it intended that it should examine the conditions in the great towns? Surely the whole idea of the Commission was to in-vetigate conditions in the country. I do not quite see the point of the phrase. There is another word which I do not quite understand in the Estimate. We find that an increased Estimate is required in reference to the subsistence of the men engaged in this particular work. I do not quite understand why we should be asked to sanction an additional charge for the subsistence of these men. There is no indication that there have been any increase of the staff or the personnel of the Crofters Commission. Simply because they are travelling further afield why should we be asked for an additional sum to be granted on the ground of subsistence? The matter requires a certain amount of further investigation, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give a more satisfactory reply than he has already given, otherwise I shall feel inclined to support the reduction.


The work done by this Commission has been done more economically than by any other Commission you will find in the history of this country. Those who know anything about the work know, what the hon. Gentleman does not know, that this only applies to the crofting counties, that there are no big towns at all in those counties, and that it is absolutely necessary that the Commission should visit the localities and hold inquiries. I hope they will do more work rather than less, and if any reasonable

Division No. 19.] AYES. [7.55 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Balcarres, Lord Beckett, Hon. William Gervase
Aitken, Sir William Max Banbury, Sir Frederick George Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Bennett-Goldney. Francis
Ashley, W. W. Barnston, Harry Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish
Astor, Waldorf Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Bigland, Alfred

sum is wanted to complete the grand work of the Crofters Act of 1886, for which this £120 is wanted, I hope the Committee will not object to it. I am certain that those who audit the accounts take care there is no waste. I hope, under the new Land Act, these Gentlemen will have more to do than heretofore.


I had always looked on the hon. Gentleman as the sole exponent of economy on that side of the House. Many a time when I have been speaking in the desert I have been supported by the hon. Member opposite. Now, to my horrror, he gets up and makes a speech which is slightly out of order, because he was complaining of the fact that the Government had not spent more money than they have. I am almost driven to the conclusion that it is because the money is being spent in the hon. Member's constituency, or some other hon. Member's constituency, that he has changed his whole attitude, and now become an advocate of extravagance instead of economy. The hon. Member (Mr. Watson Rutherford) showed a strict regard for consistency. He is always prepared to check the Government when they do what they ought not to do, whether it is in his own or any other constituency. I do not know whether the hon. Member (Mr. Morton) thinks it is advisable that the travelling expenses should be increased, because I cannot see what good is done by the travelling expenses. The mere fact that the travelling expenses have been increased does not meet the argument brought forward by the hon. Member that certain good has been done. I do not know whether these people go first class or third class. I am sure the hon. Member would not wish them to go first class when there is a comfortable third class. I shall have very great pleasure in dividing with my hon. Friend, and still greater pleasure, because I think I shall have taught the hon. Member (Mr. Morton) a lesson that he really must not, because he himself is concerned, indulge in extravagence of this kind.

Question put, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £100, be granted for the said service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 101; Noes, 210.

Bird, Alfred Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Pease, Herbert pike (Darlington)
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Hambro, Angus Valdemar Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)
Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) Harris, Henry Percy Pollock, Ernest Murray
Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Helmsley, Viscount Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Bridgeman, William Clive Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) Rawson, Col. Richard H.
Burn, Colonel C. R. Hill, Sir Clement L. Rolleston, Sir John
Butcher, John George Hill-Wood, S. Sanders, Robert Arthur
Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Sanderson, Lancelot
Cassel, Felix Hope, Harry (Bute) Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Castlercagh, Viscount Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Spear, Sir John Ward
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Horner, A. L. Stanier, Beville
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Houston, Robert Paterson Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Courthope, George Loyd Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Steel Maitland, A. D.
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Joynson-Hicks, William Stewart, Gershom
Craik, Sir Henry Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Denniss, E. R. B. Lane-Fox, G. R. Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)
Duke, Henry Edward Lewisham, Viscount Touche, George Alexander
Fabet, George Denison (Clapham) Lloyd, G. A. Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Fell, Arthur Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)
Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Weigall, Captain A. G.
Fletcher, John Samuel Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Wheler, Granville C. H.
Forster, Henry William MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Gardner, Ernest McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Wolmer, Viscount
Gastrell, Major W. H. Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Gibbs, George Abraham Mount, William Arthur Worthington-Evans, L.
Goldman, C. S. Neville, Reginald J. N. Yate, Col C. E.
Goldsmith, Frank Newton, Harry Kottingham
Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Nield, Herbert TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Watson Rutherford and Mr. Boyton.
Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Abraham William (Dublin Harbour) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Leach, Charles
Addison, Dr. Christopher Ffrench, Peter Levy, Sir Maurice
Agnew, Sir George William Flavin, Michael Joseph Lewis, John Herbert
Anstruther-Gray, Major William Furness, Stephen Lundon, Thomas
Armitage, Robert Gelder, Sir William Alfred Lyell, Charles Henry
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Gill, A. H. Lynch, Arthur Alfred
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Gilmour, Captain John Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Gladstone, W. G. C. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Beale, W. P. Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford McGhee, Richard
Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Goldstone, Frank Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Bentham, George Jackson Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Macpherson, James Ian
Black, Arthur W. Griffith, Ellis J. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Boland, John Pius Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)
Booth, Frederick Handel Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) M'Micking, Major Gilbert
Bowerman, Charles W. Gulland, John William Markham, Sir Arthur Basil
Brocklehurst, William B. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Marks, Sir George Croydon
Brunner, John F. L. Hackett, John Marshall, Arthur Harold
Bryce, J. Annan Hancock, J. G. Mason, D. M. (Coventry)
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Meagher, Michael
Burke, E. Haviland- Hardie, J. Keir Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) Menzies, Sir Walter
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) Harmsworth, R L. (Caithness-shire) Molloy, Michael
Byles, Sir William Pollard Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Molteno, Percy Alport
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Morgan, George Hay
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) Morrell, Philip
Clancy, John Joseph Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Clough, William Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Munro, Robert
Clynes, John R. Hayden, John Patrick Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C.
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Henry, Sir Charles Nannetti, Joseph P.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Higham, John Sharp Neilson, Francis
Cotton, William Francis Hodge, John Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Hogge, James Myles Nolan, Joseph
Crooks, William Holmes, Daniel Thomas Norman, Sir Henry
Crumley, Patrick Hudson, Walter Nuttall, Harry
Cullinan, John Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) John, Edward Thomas O'Donnell, Thomas
Delany, William Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Dowd, John
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) O'Grady, James
Devlin, Joseph Jones, Leif stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Dickinson, W. H. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Malley, William
Dillon, John Jowett, F. W. O'Neill, Dr. Charlés (Armagh, S.)
Donelan, Captain A. Joyce, Michael O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Doris, William J. Keating, Matthew O'Sullivan, Timothy
Duffy, William J. Kilbride, Denis Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Parker, James (Halifax)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Lansbury, George Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Elverston, Sir Harold Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham).
Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Rowntree, Arnold Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Pirie, Duncan V. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Pollard, Sir George H. Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Power, Patrick Joseph Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Pringle, William M. R. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wardle, George J.
Radford, George Heynes Scanlan, Thomas Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Raphael, Sir Herbert H. Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. Watt, Henry A.
Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Webb, H.
Reddy, Michael Sheehy, David White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Shortt, Edward Wilkie, Alexander
Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)
Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Snowden, Philip Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Spicer, Sir Albert Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Younger, Sir George
Robinson, Sidney Taylor, John W. (Durham) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Roch, Walter F. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Roche, Augustine (Louth) Tennant, Harold John TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. G. Howard.
Rose, Sir Charles Day Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Rowlands, James

Original Question again proposed.


I wish to ask the Lord Advocate a question, justified by the fact that we are English Members still responsible for Scottish affairs, and, therefore, we ought, before voting on them, to have a sufficient knowledge of the facts. I want to ask what is exactly the position of the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer. I speak as an ignorant southerner, although I am, literally, of Scottish descent. I want to appreciate the functions of this official and his relations to the Controller and Auditor-General, or to the Paymaster-General of England.


That is not a question which can now be raised.


I thought as it appeared on the Estimate I would just ask the question. But I want to say a word of protest against the assumption, based on ironical laughter and similar demonstrations from the other side, that we are not entitled to go into minutiæ. That is not the opinion of Lord Morley, who once

Division No. 20.] AYES. [8.10 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of
Addison, Dr. C. Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Elverston, Sir Harold
Agnew, Sir George William Clancy, John Joseph Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson
Armitage, R. Clough, William Ffrench, Peter
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finabury, E.) Clynes, J. R. Flavin, Michael Joseph
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Furness, Stephen
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Gelder, Sir William Alfred
Beale, W. P. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Gill, A. H.
Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Cotton, William Francis Gladstone, W. G. C.
Bentham, G. J. Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Crooks, William Goldstone, Frank
Black, Arthur W. Crumley, Patrick Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)
Boland, John Pius Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)
Booth, Frederick Handel Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Griffith, Ellis J.
Brady, P. J. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)
Brocklehurst, W. B. Delany, William Gulland, John W.
Brunner, J. F. L. Penman, Hon. Richard Douglas Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
Bryce, J. Annan Dickinson, W. H. Hackett, J.
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Donelan, Captain A. Hancock, J. G.
Burke, E. Haviland- Doris, W. Harcourt, Robert V, (Montrose)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Duffy, William J. Hardie, J. Keir
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)
Byles, Sir William Pollard Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Harvey, A. G. C (Rochdale)

said that if you wanted to reduce expenditure there were only two ways of doing it. This was stated in a speech the Noble Lord made in 1901. He said one way was by having a Chancellor of the Exchequer who insisted on scrutinising all Votes and keeping the expenditure down. That is not the position to-day. Then the Noble Lord went on to say that the only other way was for the individual Member to confine himself to small details. That, in fact, was one of the fundamental principles on which Mr. Gladstone acted, for when he went on a mission in connection with the Ionian Islands, it is stated he was so careful in regard to expenditure that he would not buy new luggage labels, but turned the old labels upside down so as to avoid the expense of fresh ones. I think we are entitled to see that these Crofter Commissioners do not take special steamers, and that their expenses are not excessive. I therefore think the whole Vote should be opposed.

Original Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 201; Noes, 92.

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) Marks, Sir George Croydon Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Marshall, Arthur Harold Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Mason, David M. (Coventry) Robinson, Sidney
Hayden, John Patrick Meagher, Michael Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Rowlands, James
Henry, Sir Charles S. Menzies, Sir Walter Rowntree, Arnold
Higham, John Sharp Molloy, M. Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Hodge, John Molteno, Percy Alport Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Hogge, James Myles Morgan, George Hay Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Holmes, Daniel Thomas Morrell, Philip Scanlan, Thomas
Hudson, Walter Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.
Hughes, Spencer Leigh Munro, Robert Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Sheehy, David
Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) Nannetti, Joseph P. Shortt, Edward
John, Edward Thomas Neilson, Francis Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Snowden, P.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Nolan, Joseph Spicer, Sir Albert
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Norman, Sir Henry Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Nuttall, Harry Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Jowett, F. W. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Joyce, Michael O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Tennant, Harold John
Keating, M. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Dowd, John Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Kilbride, Denis O'Grady, James Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) O'Malley, William Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Lansbury, George O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wardle, George J.
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rl'nd, Cockerm'th) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Leach, Charles O'Sullivan, Timothy Watt, Henry A.
Levy, Sir Maurice Palmer, Godfrey Mark Webb, H.
Lewis, John Herbert Parker, James (Halifax) White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Lundon, Thomas Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Lyell, Charles Henry Pearce, William (Limehouse) Whitehouse, John Howard
Lynch, Arthur Alfred Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wilkie, Alexander
Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Pirie, Duncan V. Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
McGhee, Richard Pollard, Sir George H. Williamson, Sir A.
Macnamara, Rt. Hon Dr. T. J. Power, Patrick Joseph Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, West)
MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) Pringle, William M. R. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Macpherson, James Ian Radford, George Heynes Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Raphael, Sir Herbert H. Yoxall, Sir James Henry
McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) Reddy, Michael TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. G. Howard.
M'Micking, Major Gilbert Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fell, Arthur Newton, Harry Kottingham
Aitken, Sir William Max Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Nield, Herbert
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Fletcher, John Samuel O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.)
Ashley, W. W. Forster, Henry William Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Balcarres, Lord Gardner, Ernest Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Pollock, Ernest Murray
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Goldman, C. S. Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Bathurst, Charles (Wilton) Goldsmith, Frank Rawson, Colonel R. H.
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Rolleston, Sir John
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Guinness, Hon. W. E. Sanders, Robert Arthur
Bigland, Alfred Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Sanderson, Lancelot
Bird, Alfred Hambro, Angus Valdemar Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Harris, Henry Percy Spear, Sir John Ward
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Helmsley, Viscount Stanier, Beville
Boyton, James Henderson, Major H. (Berks) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Hill, Sir Clement L. Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hohler, G. F. Stewart, Gershom
Burn, Col. C. R. Hope, Harry (Bute) Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Butcher, J. G. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)
Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Horner, A. L. Touche, George Alexander
Cassel, Felix Houston, Robert Paterson Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Castlereagh, Viscount Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Joynson-Hicks, William Weigall, Captain A. G.
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Wheler, Granville C. H.
Courthope, George Loyd Lewisham, Viscount Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Lloyd, G. A. Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Craik, Sir Henry Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Yate, Col. C. E.
Denniss, E. R. B. Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)
Dixon, C. H. MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Barnston and Capt. Morrison-Bell.
Duke, Henry Edward McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)
Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Neville, Reginald J. N.

And, it being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 4.