HC Deb 09 December 1912 vol 45 cc205-11

(1) For the purpose of the provisions of this Act relating to existing officers, any officer shall be deemed to be an Irish officer who is serving or employed in Irish services within the meaning of this Act.

(2) If any question arises whether an officer is an Irish officer as so defined, or otherwise as to any claim or right of an officer under the provisions of this Act relating to existing officers, that question shall be determined by the Civil Service Committee.

(3) If in any case the Civil Service Committee are of opinion that the service or employment of an officer is such that he is partly an Irish officer and partly not, that Committee shall determine any question which arises as respects the proportions in which any allowance, gratuity, or compensation payable to that officer is to be paid as between the Exchequer or Consolidated Fund of Ireland and of the United Kingdom respectively.

Government Amendment made: in Subsection (1), at the end insert the words— and the fact that the salary of an Irish officer is provided in whole or in part out of funds administered by the Government Department in which he serves, or out of an allowance voted for the office expenses of the office in which he is employed, or out of fees, instead of being charged on the Consolidated Fund or paid out of moneys provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, shall not prevent that officer being treated as an officer in the Civil Service of the Crown."—[Mr. Birell.]

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 287 Noes, 175.

Division No. 405.] AYES [11.5 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Ffrench, Peter McGhee, Richard
Acland, Francis Dyke Field, William Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Addison, Dr. Christopher Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Macpherson, James Ian
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) Fitzgibbon, John MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Callum, Sir John M.
Armitage, R. George, Rt. Hon, D. Lloyd M'Curdy, C. A.
Arnold, Sydney Gilhooly, James M'Kean, John
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Gill, A. H. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Ginnell, L. M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Gladstone, W. G. C. M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding)
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Glanville, H. J. Manfield, Harry
Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Markham, Sir Arthur Basil
Barnes, George N. Goldstone, Frank Marks, Sir George Croydon
Barton, William Griffith, Ellis Jones Marshall, Arthur Harold
Beale, Sir William Phipson Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Martin, J.
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
Beck, Arthur Cecil Guiney, Patrick Meagher, Michael
Bethell, Sir John Henry Gulland, John William Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Black, Arthur W. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Menzies, Sir Walter
Boland, John Pius Hackett, J. Millar, James Duncan
Booth, Frederick Handel Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Molloy, Michael
Bowerman, C. W. Hancock, John George Molteno, Percy Alport
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Morison, Hector
Brace, William Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Brady, P. J. Hardie, J. Keir Muldoon, John
Brocklehurst, William B. Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Munro, R.
Brunner, J. F. L. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.
Bryce, J. Annan Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Nannetti, Joseph P.
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)
Burke, E. Haviland Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) Nolan, Joseph
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Norton, Captain Cecil W.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nugent, Sir Walter Richard
Byles, Sir William Pollard Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry O' Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Hayward, Evan O'Doherty, Philip
Cawley, H. T. (Heywood) Hazleton, Richard O'Donnell, Thomas
Chancellor, H. G. Healy, Maurice (Cork) Ogden, Fred
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Hemmerde, Edward George O'Grady, James
Clancy, John Joseph Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Clough, William Henry, Sir Charles O'Malley, William
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Higham, John Sharp O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hinds, John O'Shee, James John
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Sullivan, Timothy
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hodge, John Outhwaite R. L.
Cotton, William Francis Hogge, James Myles Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Holmes, Daniel Turner Pearce, Robert (Staffs Leek)
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Holt, Richard Durning Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Crean, Eugene Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Crooks, William Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Pointer, Joseph
Crumley, Patrick Hughes, Spencer Leigh Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Cullinan, John Illingworth, Percy H. Power, Patrick Joseph
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Pringle, William M. R.
Dawes, J. A. Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Radford, G. H.
De Forest, Baron Jones, W. S. Glyn (T. H'mts, Stepney) Raffan, Peter Wilson
Delany, William Jowett, Frederick William Raphael, Sir Herbert H.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Joyce, Michael Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Devlin, Joseph Keating, Matthew Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Dewar, Sir J. A. Kellaway, Frederick George Reddy, M.
Dickinson, W. H. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Dillon, John Kilbride, Denis Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Donelan, Captain A. King, J. Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Doris, William Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Duffy, William J. Lambert, Richard (Wilts., Cricklade) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Duncan, (Barrow-in-Furness) Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Leach, Charles Roberts. Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Levy, Sir Maurice Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lewis, John Herbert Robinson, Sidney
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Esslemont, George Birnle Low, Sir F. (Norwich) Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Falconer, James Lundon, T. Roe, Sir Thomas
Farrell, James Patrick Lynch, A. A. Rowlands, James
Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Rowntree, Arnold
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Macdonald J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Samuel, J. Stockton-on-Tees) Tennant, Harold John White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Scanlan, Thomas Thomas, J. H. Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Thorne, William (West Ham) Wiles, Thomas
Sheeny, David Toulmin, Sir George Wilkie, Alexander
Sherwell, Arthur James Trevelyan, Charles Philips Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Shortt, Edward Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Verney, Sir Harry Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Wadsworth, J. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Words., N.)
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Walton, Sir Joseph Wood, Rt Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Young, William (Perth, East)
Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Wardle, George J. Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Sutherland, J. E. Waring, Walter
Sutton, John E. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Taylor, John W. (Durham) Webb, H. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Forster, Henry William Newman, John R. P.
Aitken, Sir William Max Gardner, Ernest Newton, Harry Kottingham
Amery, L. C. M. S. Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Gibbs, G. A. Nield, Herbert
Ashley, W. W. Gilmour, Captain John Norton-Griffiths, J.
Baird, J. L. Goldman, C. S. . Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Balcarres, Lord Greene, W. R. Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)
Baldwin, Stanley Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Perkins, Walter Frank
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hall, Fred (Dulwich) Pollock, Ernest Murray
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Hall, Marshall (L'pool, E. Toxteth) Pretyman, Ernest George
Barnston, H. Hamersley, Alfred St. George Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
Barrie, H. T. Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Quilter, Sir William Eley C.
Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Randies, Sir John S.
Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton) Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Harris, Henry Percy Rawson, Col. R. H.
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Helmsley, Viscount Rolleston, Sir John
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Ronaldshay, Earl of
Beresford, Lord C. Hewins, William Albert Samuel Rothschild, Lionel de
Bird, A. Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Rutherford. Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Blair, Reginald Hill, Sir Clement L. Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Hills, John Waller Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Hill-Wood, Samuel Sanders, Robert A.
Boyton, James Hoare, S. J. G. Sanderson, Lancelot
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hohler, G. F. Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Bull, Sir William James Hope, Harry (Bute) Spear, Sir John Ward
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Stanler, Beville
Burn, Colonel C. R. Houston, Robert Paterson Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Butcher, John George Hume-Williams, William Ellis Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) Hunter, Sir C. R. Staveley-Hill, Henry
Cassel, Felix Ingleby, Holcombe Stewart, Gershom
Castlereagh, Viscount Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) Swift, Rigby
Cator, John Jessel, Capt. H. M. Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Cautley, H. S. Joynson-Hicks, William Talbot, Lord E.
Cave, George Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kerry, Earl of Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Kimber, Sir Henry Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)
Chaloner. Col. R. G. W. Knight, Captain Eric Ayshtord Thomson, W Mitchell- (Down, N.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Larmor, Sir J. Thynne, Lord Alexander
Chambers, James Lee, Arthur Hamilton Touche, George Alexander
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Lewisham, Viscount Tullibardine, Marquess of
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Lonsdale, Sir J. Brownlee Wheler, Granville C. H.
Craik, Sir Henry Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droltwich) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Cripps, Sir C. A. MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)
Croft, Henry Page Macmaster, Donald Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Dalziel, D. (Brixton) Magnus, Sir Philip Worthington-Evans, L.
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Mason, James F. (Windsor) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Dixon, C. H. Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Middlemore, John Throgmorton Yate, Col. Charles Edward
Faber, Georgo Denison (Clapham) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Younger, Sir George
Fell, Arthur Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas
Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)
Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Mount, William Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir
Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Neville, Reginald J. N. Hildred Carlile and Major White.
Fletcher, John Samuel Newdegate, F. A.

Committee Report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Tuesday)

The Orders for remaining Government business were read, and postponed.

Whereupon, Mr. SPEAKEE, pursuant to the Order of the House of 14th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."