HC Deb 28 November 1911 vol 32 cc353-9

Save as herein-after mentioned this Act shall apply from and after the twenty-eighth day of May nineteen hundred and twelve, to all small dwelling-houses within the police boundaries of every royal, parliamentary, and police burgh and within every special district in Scotland: Provided that this Act shall not come into operation in any burgh having a population of less than ten thousand, or in any special district, until it has been adopted by a resolution of the town council of such burgh or county council of the county in which such special district is situated, as the case may be, at a meeting called for the purpose at any time after the passing of this Act, after one month's previous notice in a newspaper published or circulating in the burgh or special district.

Such resolution shall be published in the "Edinburgh Gazette," and shall come into force as from the twenty-eighth day of May immediately following such publication.

Every resolution of a town council or county council in terms of this Act shall be forthwith intimated to the Secretary for Scotland.

Amendments made: Leave out the words "twenty-eighth" ["twenty-eighth day of May"] and insert instead thereof the word "fifteenth."—[Mr. Ure.]


I beg to move to leave out the word "ten" ["less than ten thousand"] and to insert instead thereof the word "twenty."

This extension is desired by the boroughs I represent, and I believe by other boroughs, and they say the problem in smaller boroughs is essentially different from that of larger boroughs. There is ample opportunity for local feeling to make itself felt if there is a desire to work the Bill.

Captain MURRAY

I beg to second the Amendment.


I am quite willing to accept this Amendment.


That may suit the Border Burghs, but what about the Montrose Burghs?


I have handed in an Amendment to substitute forty for ten on the ground that the Bill as far as possible ought to be made optional. I have done so at the request of the Town Council of Ayr which is very much against the Bill being made compulsory. I do not quite know the position in which I stand. As the Lord Advocate has been so ready to accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend (Sir J. Barran) I should think he would now stretch his generosity to the extent of also accepting mine.

12.0 M.

In these circumstances I assume that the House will negative the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for the Border Burghs, and accept the Amendment I am going to propose, to insert the word "forty." I know the Lord Advocate's views about the matter very well. This is a Bill largely dominated by the City of Glasgow. So far as I have been able to make out, nobody else cares very much about it. Some other places object very much to it. I object very much to be ruled in this House by the City of Glasgow. We have heard a great deal too much of the City of Glasgow in connection with this Bill. We cannot get along the Lobbies without being jostled by deputations from Glasgow. I decline to believe that Glasgow is synonymous with Scotland, and although my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate has a warm corner in his heart for that city, I think that, having accepted the Amendment of the hon. Member opposite, he should go the whole hog and accept my Amendment.


I think if the Lord Advocate had stuck to his Bill probably there would have been no more speeches on this side. We all kept silent, notwithstanding the provocative language of the hon. and learned Member for the Central Division of Glasgow (Mr. Scott Dickson). I should have been very glad if we could have remained silent. So far as I am concerned, I protest against the Lord Advocate making this concession. The Bill before us is a compromise, and now we are asked to make a further compromise. I protest against burghs with a population between 10,000 and 20,000 being treated in this manner. I can see no reason for the different treatment of Perth, with over 20,000, and Cowdenbeath, with a little under 20,000. If what is proposed is a good thing for Perth, it is a good thing for Cowdenbeath. I believe there are many people in the small towns who are looking forward to the passing of the Bill. It is all very well to say that a resolution may be passed by the small towns, but hon. Gentlemen know what the landlords' power is on all the small town councils. The Amendment will simply put power into the hands of the town councils of the small burghs, which are manned very largely by property owners, to defeat the object which the Bill has in view. I protest against the acceptance of the Amendment, and if anybody will support me in the Lobby I will go to a Division on it.


I would ask the House to observe what the Amendment means. I do not mean to say that the hon. Member for the Border Burghs has in his mind any intention to favour the burghs he represents, but it is a remarkable fact that the Amendment just fits his case. Take the case of the hon. Member for the Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger). The exemption does not fit his case. The Amendment which the Lord Advocate apparently is prepared to accept fits the one case and not the other. The result is that for no reason that I can discover for discriminating between these boroughs you are going to make this exception. I suppose it is because the hon. Member for the Border Burghs (Sir J. Barran) asks for it. I respectfully submit that whatever reasons apply to boroughs with over 20,000 apply to those with under 20,000 inhabitants.


I join very heartily in the protest of my hon. Friend the Member for the Blackfriars Division against the

Session and Chapter. Title or Short Title. Provisions not to apply.
18 and 19 Vic., c. cxviii. The Glasgow Corporation Waterworks Act, 1855 Section ninety-seven.
28 Vic., c. lxix The Glasgow Corporation Waterworks Amendment Act, 1865 Section nine.
29 and 30 Vic., c. cclxxiii. The Glasgow Police Act, 1866 Section forty-six.
48 and 49 Vic., c. cxxxvi. The Glasgow Corporation Waterworks Act, 1885 Section thirty-six.

action of the Lord Advocate in accepting this Amendment. No argument has been advanced why the change should be made. If this is the Bill which it is represented to be by the Government—and I believe it to be a great advantage to Scotland—why should any particular section of the community be deprived of its benefits simply because it happens to be a smaller community. It affects my own Constituency, and failing an explanation I shall certainly join my hon. Friend in protesting against the action of the Government.


I cannot give a silent vote on this matter. I can speak from practical experience that this is just as much required in boroughs under 10,000 as in those above it. I think it outrageous that this change should be made in the last stages of the Bill. We have been told in this House that we are being governed by Glasgow, but if this is to be done I do not know the difference between being governed by Glasgow and being governed by Ayr.


Perhaps I might say I am very willing that the Government tellers should not be put on. The House is now in full possession of the arguments.


I do not wish to press this against the general sense of the House. I could adduce certain arguments why this is reasonable, but in view of what the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy has said, and as the sense of the House is against me, I do not wish to take a vote, but ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Leave withheld.

Further Amendments made: Leave out the words "twenty-eighth" ["twenty-eighth day of May"], and insert instead thereof the word "fifteenth."

Part II.
Session and Chapter. Title or Short Title. Modification of provision.
29 and 30 Vic., c. cclxxiii. The Glasgow Police Act, 1866 Section forty-five to apply as if the words "the yearly rent or value of which is about four pounds" were omitted.

Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."


Many on this side of the House are not in the least opposed to the Clauses of the Bill, except Clause 7, which we consider a bad Clause.

In respect of that Clause we do not propose to allow the Third Reading without a Division.

Question put, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

The House divided: Ayes, 104; Noes, 41.

Division No. 410.] AYES. [12.10 a.m.
Acland, Francis Dyke Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Parker, James (Halifax)
Adamson, William Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Pointer, Joseph
Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) Hayden, John Patrick Power, Patrick Joseph
Anderson, Andrew Macbeth Henry, Sir Charles Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Higham, John Sharp Pringle, William M. R.
Barnes, G. N. Hinds, John Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Barton, William Hodge, John Robinson, Sidney
Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Bentham, G. J. Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Booth, Frederick Handel John, Edward Thomas Scott, A, MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Bowerman, C. W. Johnson, W. Shortt, Edward
Bryce, J. Annan Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Burns, Rt Hon. John Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Sutherland, John E.
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Kilbride, Denis Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. King, Joseph Tennant, Harold John
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) Toulmin, Sir George
Cowan, W. H. Lansbury, George Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Lire, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lyell, Charles Henry Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Dawes, J. A. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Doris, William Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macpherson, James Ian Watt, Henry A.
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) M'Callum, John M. White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)
Esslemont, George Birnie M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) Whitehouse, John Howard
Ferens, Thomas Robinson Marshall, Arthur Harold Wilkie, Alexander
Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Millar, James Duncan Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
France, Gerald Ashburner Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
Gill, A. H. Munro, Robert Young, William (Perth, East)
Gladstone, W. G. C. Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.
Greig, Colonel James William Needham, Christopher T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Nolan, Joseph
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Barlow, Montague (Salford, S.) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Helmsley, Viscount Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Bridgeman, William Clive Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Hope, Harry (Bute) Talbot, Lord Edmund
Clyde, James Avon Horner, Andrew Long Thynne, Lord Alexander
Courthope, George Loyd Hunt, Rowland Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Jessel, Captain Herbert M. Wheler, Granville G. H.
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Lane-Fox, G. R. Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Craik, Sir Henry Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Malcolm, Ian
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir G. Younger and Captain Gilmour.
Gibbs, George Abraham Neville, Reginald J. N.
Goldman, Charles Sydney Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

Bill read the Third time accordingly, and passed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKEB, pursuant to the Order of the House of 24th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."