§ Mr. THOMAS F. SMYTHasked the Chief Secretary if he can state why it is that John Oates, Drumsna, county Leitrim, in the Carrick-on-Shannon pension district, has been refused an old age pension, although twice granted by the pension committee; and, as several old people who know Oates have testified that he is over seventy years of age, if instructions will be given to the pension officer to grant this man a pension?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government Board upheld the appeal of the pension officer in this case on the ground that there was no satisfactory evidence of John Oates having attained the statutory age.
§ Mr. THOMAS F. SMYTHasked why Mrs. Margaret McDermott, Mullaghboy, Upper Drumreilly Parish, in the Ballinamore pension district, county Leitrim, has been refused a pension, although the same was granted to her by the pension committee; and, as her age cannot be traced in the Census of 1841 and 1851, and considering that other people in the district of the same age are getting the pension, if she will get the benefit of the doubt as regards her age and be allowed a pension?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government Board upheld the pension officer's appeal on the ground that there was no satisfactory evidence that Mrs. McDermott had attained the statutory age. Her parents' family was traced in the Census Return of 1841, but her name did not appear therein, so that it would seem she was not then born.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the pension of Mrs. Margaret Scullin, Magherafelt sub-committee, No. 4,494, Ballymena district, has been withdrawn on the ground that the Census of 1851 shows that she was then only six years of age; that her marriage certificate shows that she was married in February, 1859, and that if the 2435 Census Return was correct she must have married at the age of thirteen; that the applicant's brother has made an affidavit that she is well over seventy years of age, and the applicant has declared that she was over twenty years of age at the time of her marriage; will he say whether the clergymen of the district have expressed themselves convinced of the justice of the claim; and whether the pension, with arrears, will now be restored?
§ Mr. BIRRELLMrs. Scullin's pension was discontinued by the Local Government Board in September last, and her second claim was refused by both the pension sub-committee and the Board. The Board's decision were not based solely on the record of her age in the Census Return of 1851, but also upon the fact that her name did not appear in the records of her parents' family in the Census Return of 1841, and upon the absence of any other evidence as to her age. Moreover, her brother, although making the affidavit referred to, has stated that nearly four years elapsed between his birth and that of claimant, one child, Mary, having been born during that interval. The Board have no power to reconsider their decisions.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHHas the right hon. Gentleman the slightest reason to believe that this woman was married before she was thirteen years of age?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNo, Sir.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHDoes not that bring her up to the limit?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThere was no satisfactory evidence of that.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHIs it not satisfactory evidence that the Local Government Board wrote that if the Census Return is right she must have been married at the age of thirteen? Is not that absurd enough for anything.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the Local Government Board reversed the decision of the pensions sub-committee in Warren-point (996, Appeal No. T.1647) granting a pension to Mrs. Janet Scarsbrick, the ground being that there was insufficient evidence of age; whether he is aware that under instructions from the Local Government Board she applied to the clergymen at her place of birth, Campsie, Maryland, 2436 Stirlingshire, and to the General Registry Office of Births in Scotland, but no record of her birth can be found; whether he is aware that a search of the Census Returns also failed to elicit any evidence as to age; and whether, in view of the exhaustive efforts made to obtain legal proof of age and of the fact that the members of the sub-committee are satisfied from her appearance that she is over seventy years of age, he will direct the restoration of the pension?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government Board upheld the pension officer's appeal in this case as there was no evidence that the claimant had reached the statutory age. It is not open to the Board to reconsider their decision.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHWhat evidence do the Local Government Board require?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI have again and again said that it is impossible for me, or even for an archangel, to state beforehand what evidence will satisfy a judicial tribunal as to the age of a person.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHWere not the members of the pension sub-committee perfectly satisfied that this woman was over seventy years of age? Are there not as likely to be archangels on a sub-committee as on the Local Government Board?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not think so.
§ Mr. LUNDONasked the Chief Secretary in what way an applicant for an old age pension can prove a claim and become entitled to the benefits of the Act when the age cannot be found in any of the Census Returns nor on the local parish register, and when neither the statements nor affidavits of people to whom applicant is known for a period of forty or fifty years will not be accepted by the Local Government Board?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNo general rule or restriction is laid down as to what evidence other than that of baptismal certificate, or of Census Returns, can be regarded as sufficient proof that a claimant has attained the age of seventy years. Any evidence submitted in cases coming before the Local Government Board is duly considered.
§ Mr. LUNDONasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that hundreds of applicants under the Old Age Pensions Act have been refused pensions on the sole grounds that they have handed over their 2437 little places to their sons or daughters (as the case may be) on marriage, in order to obtain the pension; and whether applicants in England who come under the same category are deprived of pensions by the English Local Government Board; and, if not, will he say why is Ireland and its inhabitants penalised?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNo claimants for old age pensions have been refused solely on the ground of having assigned their farms to their children, but if the hon. Member will refer to Sub-section 3 of Section 4 of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, he will see that, if any person directly or indirectly deprives himself of any property in order to qualify for a pension, that property shall for the purposes of the Act be taken to be part of his means. The Act, of course, applies equally to England and Ireland.
§ Mr. LUNDONHas the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to the report of the Controller and Auditor-General on two specific cases in England, in one of which a woman holding 40 acres applied for a pension and was refused, but, on appeal, had it granted by the Local Government Board. Will he—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member seems to be both asking and answering the question.