§ Mr. BOTTOMLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in what way it was proposed to secure the co-operation of the industrial insurance companies in the working of the Government insurance scheme; and whether, before associating himself with any particular company, he will institute inquiries as to its methods of business and the treatment of its agents?
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hobhouse)In order to qualify as an approved society an industrial insurance company would have to establish a separate self-governing department which would be precluded from working for a profit, would be competent to administer the benefits provided by the National Insurance and would otherwise conform to the conditions laid down in the Bill. In that event, however, there would be absolutely no interference with the other side of the business, with which the Government would be no more concerned than at present.
§ Mr. BOTTOMLEYWill the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether he knows that some of these large industrial insurance companies are proposing to establish—
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEI think my hon. Friend had better give notice of that question.
Mr. MONTAGUE BARLOWasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the following will come within the provisions of Clause 1, Schedule 1, of the National Insurance Bill: women in penitentiaries and other similar charitable institutions who receive no payment but who work in the institution at washing and other things which are a source of profit to the 1445 institution, stipendiary curates, clerks, sextons, and other holders of Church offices of a freehold character, and choir boys and organists?
§ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George)The position of such persons under the Bill must depend upon the precise terms on which they hold their situations, and I fear it would be impossible to make any general pronouncement as to the interpretation of the Bill in such cases.
§ Lord BALCARRESAre those who are mentioned in the question among the "persons mentioned"?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEIt is not a question of the persons at all. It is a question of the terms of the contract, and, as the Noble Lord knows very well, there are several cases under the Employers' Liability Act which turn on substantially the same kind of words.
§ Mr. FALLEIf they came within the Clause, would it mean closing these refuges, if the employers have to pay?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman in that suggestion, but, if so, it shows that the existing conditions are not conditions that ought to be encouraged.
Mr. MONTAGUE BARLOWasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that under the provisions of the National Insurance Bill various hospitals and charitable institutions now supported by voluntary public contributions will be called upon to find additional expenditure necessitated by the insurance of nurses, attendants, and other employés receiving less than £160 per annum, when such nurses, attendants, and employés do not come under the provisions of the First Schedule, Part II. (b), whilst at the same time additional work is being placed upon them by the certain increase of patients consequent on universal medical attendance and the probable withdrawal of public voluntary support consequent on the introduction of such an Act as the National Insurance Bill, he can see his way to assist, from the moneys received under such a Bill, towards the upkeep of such hospitals and charitable institutions?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe hon. Member has apparently overlooked Clause 17 of the Bill, which enables approved societies to subscribe to hospitals and 1446 other charitable institutions, and I think the position of such institutions is likely, on the whole, to be strengthened rather than prejudiced by the operation of the Bill.
§ Mr. WILLIAM THORNEasked whether any provision will be made under the National Insurance scheme to assist those persons who are now receiving invalidity benefit through the various friendly societies and trade unions?
§ Mr. POLLOCKasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what provision he proposes to make under the National Insurance Bill to continue the sick payment now being paid by friendly societies to permanently sick members, or members whose sickness is of more than one year's standing at the time when the Bill shall come into force, having regard to the terms of Clause 8, Sub-section (1) (c) and (d) and Sub-section (7) (d).
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI fear it would not be consistent with the contributory character of the National Health Insurance to give benefits to persons who do not make the minimum number of contributions prescribed by Clause 8 (7).
§ Mr. POLLOCKIs not the effect of that to take away the present sick payments which are and have been received by numbers of sick persons for a period of something like eighteen months after the Act comes into operation? The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to mix my question up with that of invalidity benefit.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThat is not the case at all. The hon. and learned Gentleman will find that there is a very large reserve fund in the hands of the friendly societies which will enable them to tide over the interval. A very small proportion of their reserve fund will enable them to do so.
§ Mr. POLLOCKMy difficulty is that under Section 55—
§ Mr. POLLOCKMay I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that under Section 55 the scheme has to be one for abolishing, reducing, or altering?
§ Mr. LESLIE SCOTTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the Government insurance scheme, account 1447 has been taken of the fact that a large proportion of nurses receive medical treatment and attendance without payment; and whether he will make such provision in the Bill as will enable the nurses to retain the benefit of such gratuitous treatment and attendance by permitting such part of the insurance fund as would, but for such provision, be paid out for medical treatment and attendance to be utilised for the benefit of the nurses themselves?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEMoney not required for the payment of the minimum benefits under the Bill becomes available for the payment of additional benefits.
Mr. KINGasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how, under the National Insurance Bill, he proposes to meet the difficulty of non-resident members of approved societies, who, while continuing to pay subscriptions to their lodges or courts, are under their rules released from medical fees and benefits when residing outside the local radius of their branches?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEAn approved society must undertake to administer the medical benefit provided by the National Health Insurance for any member who is resident in the United Kingdom. It is for the society to make arrangements for such cases.
§ Mr. LEES SMITHasked whether the provisions in the National Insurance Bill that approved societies must be absolutely self-governing is to be retained in the case of collecting societies?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe answer is in the affirmative.