HC Deb 27 February 1911 vol 22 cc23-5
EARL of RONALDSHAY

asked what was the reason for establishing only a portion of the clerks serving as clerks to surveyors of taxes; and will he consider the desirability of establishing all clerks engaged in such service, and of allowing them when established to reckon the whole of their service for pension?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

The clerks selected for appointment to the establishment were those filling the more important positions. It was thought desirable to engage the remainder on a temporary footing, and an opportunity is thus provided of testing their ability and qualifications for promotion on the occurrence of vacancies in the established classes. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.

EARL Of RONALDSHAY

Will the right hon. Gentleman say if there is any fixed period of probation during their temporary employment before they go on the establishment?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

As I pointed out in my answer they are promoted to the established classes as vacancies occur.

EARL of RONALDSHAY

asked whether those clerks to surveyors of taxes who were placed on the Civil Service establishment in 1907 are entitled to reckon their previous service as clerks to surveyors of taxes towards pension or superannuation; and, if not, will he state the reason for this discrimination between these Civil servants and the Customs boatmen who are entitled to reckon their unestablished service for pension?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

A proportion of the clerks to surveyors of taxes were first placed on the establishment in 1908; but are not entitled to reckon their previous service towards pension or superannuation. Prior to their establishment, they had been in the personal employment of the surveyors, and such service cannot be included in the calculation of an award under the Superannuation Acts.

Mr. O'GRADY

Is it not a fact that the money for the salaries of these clerks comes from the Treasury, and therefore are they not in the employ of the Treasury?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

My recollection of the facts is that the surveyors were allowed an inclusive sum.

Mr. YOUNGER?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the extremely confidential nature of the employment of these men, and does he really think he ought to discriminate against them in this way?

Viscount WOLMER

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention had been called to the conditions of employment of men clerks to surveyors of taxes: and whether he will consider the advisability of placing all such clerks on the establishment of His Majesty's Civil Service?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

I am aware of the conditions of employment of clerks to surveyors of taxes. I am unable to accede to the suggestion in the second paragraph of the question.

Mr. BUTCHER

What is the reason for placing some of these clerks on the establishment and leaving other clerks out?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the answer I gave earlier in the day he will see the reason fully stated.

Viscount WOLMER

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the confidential nature of the duties of clerks to surveyors of taxes, he will consider the desirability of securing to them such favourable conditions of employment that there will be a minimum temptation to them to transfer their services and the confidential information that they possess to private firms?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

I do not consider that the conditions of employment of clerks to surveyors of taxes are such as to subject them to the temptation suggested by the Noble Lord.

Viscount WOLMER

further asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider the advisability of allowing those clerks to surveyors of taxes who are at present on the establishment of His Majesty's Civil Service to reckon the many years' service rendered by them as so-called personal clerks to surveyors in calculating their pension or superannuation; and whether the same regulations that are applicable to Civil servants in the matter of sick-leave will be extended to clerks to surveyors of taxes?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

I am unable to accept the suggestion in the first part of the question. As regards the second part I will make inquiry as to the limits of the sick-leave now allowed to those of the clerks who are on the establishment, but I can give no undertaking that an extension of those limits will be made?

Mr. O'GRADY

Do not the Treasury consider these clerks are Civil servants? If so, why is a distinction drawn, and some put on the establishment, while others are non-established? Why should they not all enjoy the same conditions of service as Civil servants generally?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

Clerks on the establishment are Civil servants; others are merely engaged temporarily, and the conditions are made known to them when they are engaged.

Sir GILBERT PARKER

Are not all the clerks paid directly through the Surveyor, and except that they have not passed the Civil Service examination, are they not in fact Civil servants?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

I cannot admit that.

Mr. BUTCHER

Are not the duties of all the clerks substantially the same?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

It depends on what they do.