HC Deb 01 December 1911 vol 32 cc904-11

(1) The Board of Trade may make regulations for any of the purposes for which regulations may be made under this Part of this Act and the Schedules therein referred to, and for prescribing anything which under this Part of this Act or any such Schedules is to be prescribed, and—

  1. (a) for permitting workmen who are employed under the same employer partly in an insured trade and partly not in an insured trade being treated with the consent of the employer as if they were wholly employed in an insured trade; and
  2. (b) for giving employers and workmen an opportunity of obtaining a decision by the umpire appointed under this Part of this Act on any question whether contributions under this Part of this Act are payable in respect of any workman or class of 905 workmen, and for securing that a workman, in whose case contributions have been paid in accordance with any such decision shall, as respects any unemployment benefit payable in respect of those contributions, be treated as a workman employed in an insured trade, and that employers and workmen are protected from proceedings and penalties in cases where, in accordance with any such decision, they have paid or refrained from paying contributions; and
  3. (c) for prescribing the evidence to be required as to the fulfilment of the conditions and qualifications for receiving or continuing to receive unemployment benefit, and for that purpose requiring the attendance of workmen at such offices or places and at such times as may be required; and
  4. (d) for prescribing the manner in which claims for unemployment benefit may be made and the procedure to be followed on the consideration and examination of claims and questions to be considered and determined by the insurance officers, courts of referees, and umpire, and the mode in which any question may be raised as to the continuance, in the case of a workman in receipt of unemployment benefit, of such benefit; and
  5. (e) with respect to the payment of contributions and benefits during any period intervening between any application for the decision of any question or any claim for benefit, and the final determination of the question or claim; and
generally for carrying this Part of this Act into effect, and any regulations so made shall have effect as if enacted in this Act.

(2) The regulations may, with the concurrence of the Postmaster-General, provide for enabling claimants of unemployment benefit to make their claims for unemployment benefit under this Act through the Post Office, and for the payment of unemployment benefit through the Post Office.

(3) All regulations made under this Section shall be laid before each House of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made, and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parlia- ment within the next subsequent forty days on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it, praying that the regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may, if it seem fit, annul the regulation, and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder, or to the making of any new regulation.

Amendment made: In paragraph (a), leave out the word "being" ["an insured trade being treated"], and insert instead thereof the words "to be."

Amendment proposed: In paragraph (b), after the word "workman" ["for giving employers and workmen"], to insert the words "and the Board of Trade."—[Mr. Buxton.]

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I wish to call the attention of the Solicitor-General to a point in connection with this Amendment. The Amendment is intended to permit of regulations being made to give the Board of Trade the opportunity of obtaining the decision of the umpire in advance. I think that is a necessary provision, and one which the Board of Trade is likely to use on many occasions. But in order to be of use the umpire must first be appointed. Therefore there ought to be in some portion of the Bill an Amendment providing for the appointment of the umpire before the Bill generally comes into operation.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: Leave out the word "are" ["workmen are protected"], and insert instead thereof the words "shall be."—[Mr. Buxton.]

Mr. BUXTON

I beg to propose, in Subsection (d), after the word "benefit," to add the words "and for making provision with respect to the appointment of a deputy-umpire in the case of the unavoidable absence or incapacity of the umpire."

At present some confusion, I gather, exists about this deputy-umpire. There is no intention of appointing another official, either permanently or in any way, on all fours with the umpire; but it is the intention at a particular moment, if for any reason the umpire was incapable of acting, either because he had to be away or was incapacitated, or that for any other reason an emergency arose, it should be possible to carry on the work, and that a deputy-umpire should be appointed for that particular purpose. The appoint- ment would be made under regulations of the Board of Trade. The Chief Justice, or someone of that standing, would probably be asked to make the appointment in the event of the umpire himself not being able to do so. In the ordinary course the umpire himself would appoint, but in case of some emergency it would not be done by the Board of Trade, but by someone of high standing. It must be clearly understood that there is not to be a second umpire.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

After what the President of the Board of Trade has said I think everybody would be satisfied; but one does not like parting with a Clause like this without at least the statement of the intentions of the Board of Trade being on record, as otherwise we might be reverting to the old difficulties, which we pointed out in Grand Committee. I quite accept what the President has said, and, so far as I am concerned, am quite satisfied.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. HAMILTON BENN

I beg to move to insert, after paragraph (e), (f) for exempting from this Part of this Act, with the consent of the workmen and the employer, a workman engaged by an employer whose trade is not an insured trade, but who for the purposes thereof and subsidary thereto requires the continuous services of one or more workmen skilled in an insured trade. There are many employers carrying on trades which are not "insured trades." They employ an engineer or a carpenter who, in the ordinary sense would be employed in one of the insured trades. These firms employ them continually, apart from their ordinary trade, because it is more convenient to have one on the premises to carry out small jobs as required. I do not suppose it is the intention of the Government that those persons should come within the Bill and be regarded as insured persons under the unemployment scheme. Those persons are employed regular hours and paid weekly wages. I know that Clause 102, Sub-section (2), says that regard is to be had to the nature of the work rather than to the business of the employer, but it would be extremely inconvenient to work this out in the cases to which I have referred, in which an employer might have only two or three of such workmen engaged.

Mr. CASSEL

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir J. SIMON

The question raised by the hon. Gentleman's Amendment is one which was much discussed in different forms in the Committee. It really comes to this: are you going to decide whether a man comes within this Bill by considering what is the occupation of the worker or considering what is the business of the employer? That matter was in some doubt and it was difficult at first sight to say which view was right. But hon. Members will bear me out when I say, that the Committee came to a clear conclusion that considering it in many aspects, that the line of demarcation was to have regard to the occupation of the workman as distinguished from the trade of the employer. If that is not done, you produce a cross division of a very unfortunate kind. Take, for instance, the man who is an engineer in a cotton factory. I do not think it can be right to have such a man, who is doing the very work which would bring him under the Bill, excluded.

Mr. HAMILTON BENN

In view of what the learned Solicitor-General has said I withdraw my Amendment, though I think in practice it will be found extremely inconvenient to proceed in the way proposed in the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. HAMILTON BENN

I beg to propose, in paragraph (e), to omit the words "and generally for carrying this Part of this Act into effect."

Paragraphs (a) to (e) of this Clause are quite wide enough. The words to which I object might give almost an unfair power to the Board of Trade. It has been suggested to me from many quarters that the words are too wide, that anything and everything that can be thought of, have been included in paragraphs (a) to (e), and there is really no need to give such very wide powers as these.

Mr. HOARE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir J. SIMON

The hon. Gentleman says that every conceivable case that can be thought of is provided for. I am not quite so sanguine. I think it may possibly happen that however carefully and thoroughly this work has been done, we may find a small gap somewhere which all of us meant to cover, and do not happen to have covered, by our specific list of subject matters. This power at the end for carrying the Act into effect cannot be magnified into for one to giving the Board of Trade power to make regulations about everything in heaven or on earth. It is merely brought in at the end almost as a matter of common form, and is to be found in a great many Acts of Parliament, so that they may not be prevented from making necessary regulations which may not be technically within the list of objects that are set out. We must keep these words in because they are the common form of providing for such cases.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. BUXTON

I beg to propose, at the end of paragraph (h), to insert, (f) For providing that where any workmen are employed in or for the purposes of the business of any person, but are not actually employed by that person, that person may be treated for the purposes of this Part of this Act as their employer instead of their actual employer, and for allowing that person to deduct from any payments made by him to the actual employer any sums paid by him as contributions on behalf of the workmen, and for allowing the actual employer to recover the like sums from the workmen.

Mr. HOARE

I would like to have some explanation of this Clause, which is rather complicated and inaugurates several innovations.

Sir J. SIMON

The hon. Gentleman will see that this Clause is intended to provide for a case which is not very common, but which may not be dealt with if we do not take some special power. The general scheme of the Act is that the employer should pay the employer's contribution and the workman should pay the workman's contribution. Those two persons are discovered by asking between whom is the contract, but you do have cases where a man who is really a workman is himself left to engage as part of his gang two or three, or it may be half a dozen, people who will work with him and are in a sense under him. Sometimes he makes his own engagement, and pays the wages; sometimes the employer pays the wages, and the intermediate workman merely regulates some details. All we have done is to take power to decide who is to keep the cards, and to fix the stamps. If the Committee look at the provision they will see that it is for providing that where any workmen are employed in or for the purposes of the business of any person, but are not actually employed by that person, that person may be treated for the purposes of this Part of this Act as their employer instead of their actual employer, and for allowing that person to deduct from any payments made by him to the actual employer any sums paid by him as contributions on behalf of the workmen, and for allowing the actual employer to recover the like sums from the workmen. The hon. Gentleman will see that we are merely taking power to do it in cases where it is convenient. You may have cases where it is not very convenient to leave it to the workman to keep the cards, affix the stamps, and make other arrangements. It may be more convenient for the head employer to keep the cards, put on the stamps, and keep the accounts.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: At the end of Sub-section (1), add the words, Any regulations made under this Section for giving an opportunity of obtaining a decision of the umpire may be brought into operation as soon as may be after the passing of this Act."—[Sir J. Simon.]

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words "His Majesty in Council may, if it seem fit, annul the regulation," and to insert instead thereof the words "which therefore shall be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything done thereunder."

The House will observe that these regulations have all to be laid on the Table of either Houses of Parliament and remain there for a considerable time. Either House of Parliament may petition His Majesty not to carry them into effect. But even after that has been done, and after a vote has been taken in this House protesting against one of these regulations, it is still open to the Government to advise His Majesty under this Clause to carry them into effect notwithstanding. There is a discretion given. The discretion says that His Majesty in Council may, if he sees fit, allow the regulations. I do not think that that is what is it tended, certainly not what we want. Surely if a Resolution is passed either in this House or the other House praying that a particular regulation should not be carried into effect, that ought to be absolute. There ought not to be this discretion on the part of the Government to carry out the decision of the House or not. This particular provision is inconsistent with similar provisions which are made in respect of what are called "special orders" under this Bill in Clause 99. If the Government look at Clause 99, Sub-section (2), they will see that it provides,

Before a special order comes into force it shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of not less than thirty days during which the House is sitting, and if either of those Houses before the expiration of those thirty days presents an address to His Majesty against the order or any part thereof, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of any new order.

I cannot understand why an address in either House should be absolutely effective in the case of special orders, and that in the case now under consideration it should be left to the discretion of the Government. All I want to do is to make the two provisions identical, in order to make the procedure the same in both cases, and that in either House there should be power to stop a regulation from proceeding further.

Mr. CASSEL

I beg to second the Amendment.

I think the giving of this discretion to His Majesty in Council is contrary to precedents in similar cases. In the Finance Act of 1910 a regulation has to be laid before the House, and the House has an absolute veto upon it.

Sir J. SIMON

I accept the Amendment.

Mr. SPEAKER

I think the form of the Amendment is not quite correct, and that it should be to leave out certain words.

Question, "That the words 'His Majesty in Council may, if it seem fit, annul the regulation' stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

And to insert the words, Sir?

Mr. SPEAKER

The words proposed by the hon. Member are unnecessary; they are already in the Clause.