HC Deb 17 August 1911 vol 29 cc2206-8

The provisions of any by-laws made by any local authority under section one hundred and fifty-seven of the Public Health Act, 1875, as amended by any other Act, with respect to new buildings (including provisions as to the giving of notices and deposit of plans and sections), and any provisions in any local Act dealing with the construction of new buildings, and any by-laws made with respect to new buildings under any local Act, shall not apply in the case of any new buildings being school premises to be erected, or erected, according to plans which are under any regulations relating to the payment of grants required to be, and have been, approved by the Board of Education.

Mr. BOOTH

I beg to move, to leave out the words "shall not apply" ["new buildings under any local Act shall not apply in the case of"], and to insert instead thereof the words "may with the consent of the local authority be set aside."

The Amendment preserves the rights of local authorities. Under a Clause of this kind, the Education Department could send down officials to exert a little authority over the local body, and I am not sure that that would be altogether acceptable. It is only in that view that I move the Amendment. It is becoming increasingly difficult to get men of independent character, men of business, to go on to these local authorities, and if their views and wishes were to be ignored from time to time, there would be a deterioration in the quality of the men who would accept membership of those local authorities. It is best that we should have responsible and good men on these local authorities, but if they find themselves overridden by officials they will simply return to their own private business. I do not know what the answer of the Department will be; but I cannot see that any harm will be caused by getting the consent of the local authority.

Mr. TREVELYAN

The whole object of this Clause is to enable the Education Department to have greater freedom in order to be able to override local by-laws. Local by-laws, in a great many cases, cause a quite unnecessary expenditure on schools. We have recently had a small departmental inquiry into the matter, and one of the complaints we find most general is that in many places the by-laws are antiquated, and prevent cheap building. Schools have to be built, like mills and warehouses, with very thick walls, where much thinner walls would be satisfactory. In regard to the Amendment, if the words "local authority" means the education authority, then that is simply saying that one-half of the Clause may do it, and the other half of the Clause may not do it.

Mr. BOOTH

It is the sanitary authority.

Mr. TREVELYAN

If it means the sanitary authority, then it makes the Clause of no avail. Where this Clause is wanted is mainly in the rural districts where the authorities are not in touch with one another. I think the Amendment is not necessary, and I hope my hon. Friend will not press it.

Mr. PETO

In what places are rules and regulations applicable to factories applied to elementary schools?

Mr. TREVELYAN

I cannot tell all the places. But Manchester is one of them.

Mr. C. BATHURST

I should like to say, as a member of a local education authority, that I am entirely in accord with all that has fallen from the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to this particular matter. There is no doubt that a very valuable work has been done by the Departmental Committee of the Board which has been sitting on this question of how to build efficiently and at the same time inexpensively. I think that the aid which will be given by the Board to the local authorities will be of very great value. In my own district the regulations approved by the sanitary authorities provide for a central hall in connection with the school, and the result of this is that if it becomes necessary to have an extension of the building, it is found impossible to effect it without very great and unnecessary cost. That is one of the reasons why I feel that this proposal will be of great value to the local education authorities.

Mr. BOOTH

After the explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.