Sir HENRY DALZIELI beg to ask leave to introduce a Bill to make better provision for the government of Scotland.
The Bill is brought forward at the instance of and with the support of my colleagues sitting for Scottish divisions. The question is not a new one in this House. Twenty years ago I had the honour of making a proposition that the time had then arrived when Scotland should have control of her purely domestic affairs in a Parliament sitting in Scotland. That Motion was carried by the House of Commons and was supported by the Ministry of the day. During the twenty years that have since elapsed the case which was then accepted by the House of Commons has in no way weakened. Every year has supplied fresh facts and fresh arguments in favour of the proposition. I would direct attention to the character of the present representation of Scotland. Scotland has seventy-two Members, two of whom are University Members, so that there are seventy representatives of popular constituencies. Out of those seventy Members sixty are pledged to the support of the principle embodied in this measure. If representative Government means anything at all, I think that that fact alone ought to recommend this measure to the favourable consideration of the House. Our case is briefly this. We say that it is impossible under the prevailing system for Scotland to carry into legislative effect the will of the people as expressed at the poll. We say that there is no opportunity for the will of Scotland to take legislative effect. We claim that in all matters, of purely domestic concern Scottish opinion should be predominant, but that the supremacy in Imperial matters should be retained in the Imperial Parliament. I may observe, in passing, that there is not one single item in the whole programme of Radicalism or social reform to-day which, if Scotland had had power to pass laws, would not have been carried a quarter of a century ago. There is not 1930 one item to-day which would not be carried in a short time if Scottish representatives had the power.
One word with regard to the relationship between the Scottish and the Irish claims. I need hardly say that it is not in any spirit of rivalry or in any sense of antagonism that we are bringing forward this measure. Scotland has always been loyal to the Irish demand. Scotland is loyal now, and will remain loyal until Ireland has achieved her purpose and desire. We believe that in bringing forward a measure of this kind, and in making our claim, we are strengthening the Irish position. We believe that the more the Irish demand is presented to the country as part of a general settlement on lines applicable to other portions of the United Kingdom, the stronger will be the support given by the British electors to the Irish appeal. We say further, that in the interests of the Imperial Parliament itself our measure ought to be accepted by the House. Anyone who has observed the working of this House will admit that the Parliamentary machine has broken down completely and absolutely. The work at the present time is not in any sense consistent with any reasonable idea of Parliamentary institutions. Members start sitting on Committees at eleven o'clock in the morning, and continue in attendance until two or three o'clock the next morning. It is impossible for them to give proper consideration to the work expected of them. What happened last night, to go no further back, is enough to support the proposition I am now making. Millions of money were passed without a word of consideration. The same thing happened the night before. About many Departments, not a single word of criticism has been possible during the present Session or during many previous Sessions. All these facts tend to show that the machinery is overburdened, and that it is necessary to adopt some expedient in order that the great Imperial services may be properly considered in this House. What we propose is that a portion of the burden should be taken off the Parliamentary machine, that the purely domestic matters should be discussed in the various countries concerned, and that this House should be freer to deal with entirely Imperial affairs.
The measure we propose provides that on an appointed day there shall be a legislature in Scotland consisting of His Majesty the King and a House of Repre- 1931 sentatives. [An HON. MEMBER: "No Lords?"]. There is a provision with regard to Lords, namely, that if properly elected they may sit in the legislature. We propose that the House of Representatives shall consist of 140 members; that is, roughly, double the present representation, taking out the Universities, which we do not propose should have special representation. I hope that that is not responsible for the notice in opposition to the Bill which appears on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member opposite (Sir H. Craik), because I am sure that he would have no difficulty in finding a seat elsewhere. We provide that each constituency shall have two members, that the election shall take place on the present Parliamentary Register, that the Parliament shall be elected for five years, for the establishment of the position of Lord High Commissioner, and for the repeal of the Secretary for Scotland Act and the Provisional Orders Act. We propose to set aside the powers with which this Parliament shall be entrusted, and to reserve to the Imperial Parliament matters of purely Imperial concern. We give to the Scottish Parliament such matters as local government, public health, criminal law, administration of justice, bankruptcy, gaols and prisons, marriage and divorce, education, railways, canals, land, and other matters of purely local concern. We propose to exempt from its power all matters relating to the making of treaties and the Imperial forces, and all matters which properly belong to a purely Imperial Parliament. With regard to finance, we provide that the basis shall be the average of the last three years, and for the establishment of a Consolidated Fund for Scotland. We ask for a Commission properly to adjust the financial relations. We give supreme power to this House, but we say at the same time that the Scottish people, through their representatives, shall have power to settle Scottish questions on Scottish soil. We put forward this proposal as our method of settlement of a great national question.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI beg leave to move, as an Amendment, "That such leave be given upon this day three months."
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat would not be in order. The hon. Gentleman cannot move an Amendment.
§ Sir H. CRAIKThen I will move the rejection of the Bill.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member can make a speech in opposition to the Bill.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI do so, and for several reasons. I am quite sure the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir Henry Dalziel) may take it from me that this is not in the slightest degree a personal question, and that even if he offered me a seat in his new Parliament I should decidedly refuse it.
4.0 P.M.
I base my opposition, not on personal, but on other and, I think, much stronger grounds. I oppose the Bill because I think that this unwary and ill-considered proposal may be the beginning of a long and acrimonious contest, the end of which none of us can foresee. I think it is not only against the interests of Scotland, but contrary to the wishes of the vast majority of my countrymen. Lastly, I oppose because my experience tells me how fatal this measure would be to the smooth working of Scottish administration. No sane man who knows the history of the last two centuries can deny that the Act of Union of 1707 has been a measure of the greatest benefit both to Scotland and to England. A few years ago no man who would have been considered a reasonable politician would have advanced any other opinion. The opposite view began a few years ago to be spread by an obscure clique who sought a little notoriety by posing as the advocates of political paradox. It has been sedulously fomented by those who had their own object in view. Now it appears in this House in the guise of a grave political proposal. Scotland knows her interests too well to look at such a Bill. Such a parting of the ways could not possibly be for her benefit. Do hon. Members opposite think that young Scotsmen, with the world before them, wish to have the doors closed upon them and a spirit of hostility raised against them upon the part of the predominant partner where there are so many openings to careers? Do hon. Members think that the great commercial communities of the West of Scotland, Glasgow for instance, wish to break a hundred commercial bonds that tie them to England? There are many firms which have branches in Glasgow and Manchester. Do hon. Members mean to tell me that there is less connection between Manchester and Glasgow, where many of the business people spend half the week in one and half in the other, than there is between Glasgow and, say, the 1933 Western Hebrides? It is absolutely impossible. I would ask again: do you think that Glasgow, with its vast population and great commercial wealth, wishes to be made subject to an Edinburgh Parliament? It is perfectly true that Scottish interests are neglected, but the blame for that rests on hon. Members opposite. If they were to spend their time in bringing pressure—as they could bring it—upon the Government of the day instead of dealing out to us edifying and most orthodox sermons on the exaggerated language which they think we use with regard to the neglect of Scottish business, I think they would be doing a better work for their country. I would ask hon. Gentlemen to pause before they are guilty of the great political crime of reviving a dead and forgotten controversy, of raising new and dangerous prejudices against their fellow countrymen. If they are introducing this Bill merely in obedi-
§ ence to that little clique to which I have referred, which spreads its objects by strange journalistic productions distributed amongst us, then they are reducing the politics of the House of Commons to the level of comic opera. If, on the other hand, they really think they are doing a benefit to Scotland, and are carrying out the wishes of the majority of the Scottish people, I consider they are guilty of a gross political error. If it is a matter of political strategy and tactics connected with a general scheme for the disruption of the Empire, then I say that those hon. Members are guilty, not merely of an absurdity, not merely of error, but of a heinous political crime against their country.
§ Question put, "That leave be given to bring in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 172; Noes, 73.
1935| Division No. 336.] | AYES. | [4.10 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Marshall, Arthur Harold |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Alden, Percy | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Gulland, John W. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Mooney, John L. |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morrell, Philip |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Barnes, G. N. | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Munro, Robert |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. |
| Beale, W. P. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Benn, W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Haworth, Sir Arthur A. | Neilson, Francis |
| Bentham, George J. | Healy, Maurice (Cork) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East) | Norton, Captain Cecil William |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Brien, William (Cork, N. E.) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Higham, John Sharp | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hinds, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hodge, John | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hudson, Walter | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Pirle, Duncan V. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Pointer, Joseph |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Clough, William | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Rainy, Adam Rolland |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jowett, Frederick William | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Crooks, William | Keating, Matthew | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | King, Joseph (Somerset, North) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| De Forest, Baron | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lansbury, George | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Leach, Charles | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Lewis, John Herbert | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rowlands, James |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Lyell, Charles Henry | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lynch, A. A. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Ferens, Thomas Robinson | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Gelder, Sir William Alfred | Maclean, Donald | Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Gibson, Sir James Puckering | Macpherson, James Ian | Shortt, Edward |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Glanville, H. J. | M'Callum, John M. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Snowden, Philip |
| Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Ward, John (Stoke-on-Trent) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Simon, John E. | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) | Wardle, G. J. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Tennant, Harold John | Waring, Walter | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Trevelyan, Charles Philips | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | |
| Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir H. |
| Verney, Sir H. | Wiles, Thomas | Dalziel and Mr. Munro-Ferguson. |
| Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | Wilkie, Alexander | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gibbs, George Abraham | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Goldman, Charles Sydney | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Goldsmith, Frank | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Grant, James Augustine | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gretton, John | Quilter, William Eley C. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harris, Henry Percy | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hills, John Waller | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hohler, G. F. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Swift, Rigby |
| Campion, W. R. | Joynson-Hicks, William | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cassel, Felix | Kirkwood, John H. M. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Lawson, Hon H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Croft, Henry Page | Mackinder, Halford J. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Magnus, Sir Philip | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fell, Arthur | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon, W. Hayes | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, Sir George |
| Fleming, Valentine | Newton, Harry Kottingham | |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir H. Craik and Mr. J. Gordon. |
| Forster, Henry William | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) | |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. |
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Henry Dalziel, Mr. Munro-Ferguson, Mr. Pirie, Mr. Watt, Mr. Cowan, Mr. Munro, Mr. Pringle, Mr. Hope, Mr. Rainy, Mr. Morton, Mr. Cathcart Wason, and Mr. Barnes. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 24th October, and to be printed.