§ Mr. GINNELLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the admission of the Irish Government that many in Ireland are justly in receipt of old age pensions who would not have got them but for the evidence of the Census Returns, whether he will have the rules relating to old age pensions in Ireland so adjusted to the facts there that the persons certified by pension committees to be entitled to pensions and now denied pensions solely because their names are not in the Census Returns, though they have always resided in Ireland, shall be given pensions and not made to suffer longer for an omission for which they are not responsible?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe instructions to pension officers scheduled to the Old Age Pensions Regulations direct them to have regard, for the purpose of determining the age of any person, to "any evidence which appears sufficient for the purpose," and it would therefore be obviously impossible to make them more comprehensive. The duty of deciding upon the evidence rests in the first instance with the local pension committee, and in the event of an appeal, with the Local Government Board. The pension officer acts upon the decision of the committee in all cases in which it appears to be supported by sufficient evidence. In other cases an appeal is lodged and he is guided by the result of the appeal. I do not see how this procedure could be altered consistently either with the provisions of the Act or with the public interest.
§ Mr. GINNELLDoes the right hon. Gentleman not see that this involves that those who are not in the Census Returns are suffering injustice? When the pension committee repeatedly certify that the applicant is seventy years of age and is entitled to a pension, how long is it to be withheld?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe decision of the local pension committee is subject to appeal to the Local Government Board, who judge of the sufficiency of the evidence and give the Grant or reject the pension.
§ Mr. GINNELLasked whether the experts who first estimated the amount required for old age pensions in Ireland on the basis of the present population instead of the population of seventy years ago, have estimated the yearly aggregate amount that will be payable by the ratepayers and also the amount that will be payable by the Treasury in Great Britain and in Ireland, respectively, under the Government scheme of contribution pensions to persons who have had to accept poor relief; and, if so, what those amounts are, and what is the percentage of the present population to be so pensioned in each country?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSENo, Sir.
§ Mr. HUGH LAWasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a resolution passed by the Milford old age pension subcommittee, county Donegal, together with a list of persons within their area, who, in the opinion of the sub-committee, have been unjustly deprived of their pensions, 2118 asking that these pensions may be at once restored with arrears; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe resolution and list referred to have been received by the Local Government Board, who informed the sub-committee, in reply, that it is not open to the Board to reconsider their decisions.
§ Mr. SCANLANasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Mrs. Bridget Johnson, widow, Laragan, county Sligo, has been deprived of her pension by the Local Government Board on the ground that she is not qualified in respect of age; whether the Local Government Board, in arriving at this decision, had no evidence against her claim beyond the fact that her name did not appear in the Census Returns of 1841 and 1851; whether he is aware that the parish priest, the Protestant rector, the local members of the board of guardians, and the local pension committee are satisfied that she is over seventy years of age, and that the local pension committee, Collooney subcommittee, granted her a pension of 5s. per week; whether the Local Government Board are proceeding solely on negative evidence; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government Board were not satisfied that Mrs. Johnson had reached the statutory age. She stated that she was born in 1838, but produced no evidence in support of her statement beyond a certificate of her marriage in September, 1864. The onus of proof that the statutory age has been attained rests upon the claimant, and if Mrs. Johnson has any further evidence to produce, it is open to her to make a fresh claim.