§ Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he was aware that old age pensions granted by pension committees in Ireland had been disallowed in cases in which the Local Government Board for Ireland were and still are unaware whether the name of the applicant is in the Census Returns or not; by whose authority this was done; and whether he will have the Census Returns examined in each of these cases?
§ Mr. BIRRELLAs I have already informed the hon. Member in reply to a question asked by him on the 14th instant, the Local Government Board are not aware of any case of the disallowance of a pension in the circumstances which he describes. If he will furnish particulars of any such case it will be inquired into.
§ Mr. GINNELLIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Local Government Board frequently admit that a pension has been withdrawn, although the Census Returns have not been examined at all?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNo; I am not in a position to admit that. If the hon. Member will give me the figures I will have the matter looked into.
§ Mr. FLAVINWill the right hon. Gentleman ascertain from the Local Government Board on what grounds they invariably sustain the appeals of the pension officers when the committees grant applications for pensions?
§ Mr. GINNELLWill the right hon. Gentleman state on whose authority a pension is withheld when it is voted by the pension committee, although the Local Government Board know nothing about whether the name is in the Census Returns or not?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not agree with the facts as stated by the hon. Member. Anything that is done in the way of appeal is done on the authority of the Local Government Board.
§ Mr. GINNELLWill the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is that the Local Government Board refuse pensions, although they do not know whether the names are in the Census Returns or not?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not admit that they act in that way.
§ Mr. GINNELLIt is so.
§ Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary, in view of the admitted fact that the 2290 rules under which the Old Age Pensions Act is being administered would deprive of pensions many in Ireland who get them solely on the evidence of the Census Returns, whether he will state the duty and practice of pension officers to have those Returns examined before disallowing any pension granted by a pension committee, and the duty and practice of the officers and of the Local Government Board when in such a case the name of the applicant is not found in the Census Returns though he has always resided in Ireland?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI understand that in all cases in which satisfactory documentary evidence of age is not produced the Census Returns are searched free of charge, provided that the necessary particulars for the search are furnished. If a claimant's name is not found in the Census Returns the Local Government Board are prepared to consider any other evidence of age that may be furnished to them. The onus of proof, however, rests upon the claimant, who is given full opportunity of furnishing it, and if the evidence produced is insufficient the Board have no option but to disallow the claim.
§ Mr. GINNELLIn view of the right hon. Gentleman's statement in this House that hundreds and thousands get pensions on the sole evidence of the Census Returns, will he have these Returns examined in all cases?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI say that we do examine them in all cases where it is necessary, but the difficulty largely arises from the fact that the claimant frequently is not able to state the name of the townland in which he was born or where his family lived. I believe the Census Returns are invariably searched when he tells us where he believes he was born or indicates where his family lived.
§ Mr. HACKETTasked whether John Ryan (Rody), Foilnadrough, Kilcommon, Thurles, was granted an old age pension by the Birdhill pension sub-committee; whether he is aware that Ryan furnished the sub-committee with a baptismal certificate in support of his claim; and that the Local Government Board refused to sanction his pension on the ground of unsatisfactory evidence of birth; and whether he can state in what way the certificate was unsatisfactory?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government Board have not yet decided this case, which presents unusual difficulty, inas- 2291 much as they are unable to accept the baptismal certificate furnished by the parish priest, as it appears that it is not a copy of an entry in the parish register.
§ Sir WALTER NUGENTasked the Chief Secretary if his attention had been called to the cancelling by the Local Government Board of a pension which had been granted to Michael McGrath, of Coble, county Westmeath, on the grounds that the 1851 Census showed him to have been only seven years of age in that year, the same Census Return giving the ages of his sister Mary and his brother Larry as 13 and 11, respectively, in the same year; whether he is aware that on examining the parish register it was found that the said Mary McGrath was baptised upon 16th June, 1832, and would therefore now, if she were alive, be nearly seventy-eight years of age, and Michael McGrath, who has been disqualified for a pension, between seventy-one and seventy-two; and whether, in view of these and other corroborated facts, which were brought to light by the Rev. Mr. Butler, he will have this case reconsidered with a view to restoring to this man, who is in a state of abject poverty and the only survivor of his family, the pension to which he is justly entitled?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government Board were not satisfied that the Mary McGrath baptised in 1832 was the same Mary McGrath who appeared in the Census Return of 1851. The Board came to the conclusion, from the evidence before them, that the first Mary McGrath died in infancy, and that there was a second child of the same name in the family. They were not furnished with any evidence from the baptismal register as to Michael McGrath's age. It is not open to them to reconsider their decision on the appeal already lodged.
§ Sir WALTER NUGENTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the clergyman can produce absolute evidence to prove that the Mary McGrath in the Census Return is the Mary McGrath referred to in the baptismal register?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThat evidence was not before the Local Government Board. An opportunity would arise on a claim for a pension, in which case the matter will be considered.
§ Sir WALTER NUGENTIf a fresh application is sent in will the Local Government Board reconsider their decision?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThey do not reconsider their decision. If a fresh application is made then it is open just as much as ever.
§ Mr. LUNDONasked the Chief Secretary why Mrs. Flynn, of Kilfinane, county Limerick, who was in receipt of a pension from the time the Act came into operation up to five months ago, was struck off the list; whether he is aware that the pension officer made a statement before the subcommittee that, according to the Census Returns, she was not up to the age limit, and that, after such statement was made by the pension officer, the priest of the parish wrote to the Census Office and found through an official certificate that Mrs. Flynn was 73 years old; and, having, regard to the facts of this case, whether the Treasury will pay the money "which is due to her for the past five months, and have instructions issued immediately to have her pension continued?
§ Mr. BIRRELLAn appeal is pending in this case. Apparently two persons of the same name were traced in the Census Returns, one under and the other over the statutory age, and the Local Government Board are inquiring whether Mrs. Flynn can fee identified with the latter.
§ Mr. FRANCIS MEEHANasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he would state upon what grounds Bridget M'Morrow, of Corratymore, Beagh, Dromahair, county Leitrim, was deprived of her old age pension; and whether he is aware that she produced a certificate of her marriage and others to prove that she was over the statutory age?
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hobhouse)Bridget M'Morrow was deprived of her pension by the Local Government Board on appeal on the ground that she had not reached the statutory age of seventy. She was shown as six years of age in the Census Returns of 1851. I am informed that no certificate of marriage was produced to the pension officer.