DIVISION OF LOCAL TAXATION, LICENCE DUTIES BETWEEN LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND EXCHEQUER. (Hansard, 22 September 1909)

§ Lord BALCARRES
These Resolutions are not on the Paper.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
No; the Resolutions are not on the Paper, according to rule. The Noble Lord will remember that during the time of the late Government they never were on the Paper.

§ Lord BALCARRES
I daresay the late Government did many wrong things.

§ Mr. JOHN WARD
Many.

§ Lord BALCARRES
The hon. Member was not in the last Parliament.

§ Mr. J. WARD
We knew enough about that outside.

§ Lord BALCARRES
The three Resolutions we have been discussing to-night were on the Paper, but we have had no notice of these. Cannot we adjourn the proceedings? I have been here 15 hours, and I have to be at the Grand Court again at 11.30.

§ Sir W. ROBSON
I am told it is not usual to put these Motions on the Paper. The present Licence and Motor Duties, of course, go to local authorities; the increased duties are wanted for the State, and the Resolution is for the purpose of enabling the State to appropriate the increase of duties, The Committee is not at all ignorant of what these increases of duties are, and surely there can be no objection to allowing these Resolutions to pass. It is true the Resolutions are not set down; but notice was given that they would be made. The third order of the 572 day is Finance (Consolidated Fund)—Committee thereon.

§ Lord BALCARRES
I really did not know these Resolutions were coming on. I wish to make an appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter. Nobody has got the terms of this Resolution. We have been told that it would be the practice of this Government to put notice of such Resolutions on the Paper.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
I said that this is following the usual practice, and the usual practice of the late Government was that in the Committee stage the Resolutions were read from the Table for the first time.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Joseph Pease)
Perhaps I may be allowed to explain exactly what occurred. There are a certain number of new Clauses which will be introduced as soon as the Committee stage of the Bill has been passed. To enable these to be discussed it is necessary that certain Resolutions should be passed. These Resolutions are usually passed through in a formal way in any Finance Bill. I consulted the officials of the House as to precedents, and I found that it was usual when any Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means was required to place it on the Paper. The three Resolutions which were necessary to move in Committee of Ways and Means were placed on the Paper and the usual notice was given to the House of the terms of the Resolutions. It is almost without precedent that any Resolution not required in connection with Ways and Means for a Finance Bill should be circulated or placed on the Paper. I did not think it was desirable to create a precedent by placing the terms of formal Resolutions on the Paper last night. They were presented at the Table at the commencement of this sitting, and any Member who desired to refer to them had an opportunity of doing so. That has been the usual practice, and we have followed the precedents.

§ Lord BALCARRES
I quite accept what the right hon. Gentleman says about precedents, but the House has had no notice that these Resolutions would be taken tonight.

§ Mr. JOSEPH PEASE
I gave it last night.

§ Lord BALCARRES
Not of Ways and Means Resolutions. The Prime Minister 573 only said we were to take the three Resolutions we have taken to-night. We have had no notice of these new Resolutions, although it may be in order according to precedent to accept them. The learned Attorney-General himself did not know that they were going to be taken. My hon. Friend asked him whether the Resolution dealing with the Motor Car Tax was the only one which was to be taken, and the learned Attorney-General said "Yes." I think it is unreasonable that we should be asked to take them. I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Both he and I have to be upstairs at half-past eleven, and so has the learned Solicitor-General.

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
I shall be there.

§ Lord BALCARRES
If we are there we shall be in a state of coma. We do not know what are these Resolutions. They may raise very big points, and if each one of them only takes half an hour or three-quarters of an hour we shall be a long time over them. I do not say there was any pledge, but there was an understanding that the convenience of those Members serving on the Grand Committee should be consulted. It is not observing that to keep us here till five or six o'clock.

§ Mr. JOSEPH PEASE
In the arrangement made last night they were all definitely alluded to.

§ Lord BALCARRES
I will not move to report Progress for the moment, but I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell us what these Resolutions are, and how many he wants to take.

§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE
I made it clear last night that we were going to take, not merely those Resolutions we have already taken, but also these formal Resolutions which will enable us to proceed with the Bill. I said so distinctly, and I have sent for a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT, in which I think the Noble Lord will find my statement. If what I say is not borne out by the Report, I will give way at once.

§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON
The OFFICIAL REPORT is not out yet.

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
I know it was in "The Times" this morning.

§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD
We did not so understand it.

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
Whether there is any particular allusion to the conversation between the right hon. Gentleman 574 and myself I am not sure, but I am quite clear that not only the three Resolutions but others of a purely formal character were to be taken. The Noble Lord has had some experience of arrangements, and he will bear me out that many Resolutions of this kind are passed without notice. He knows perfectly well that in a Bill like this we cannot proceed with certain Clauses without getting these formal Resolutions. I am sorry to have to repeat an observation I made last night, that it is desirable that we should, in the general interests and convenience of Members, make some progress. We have put off these Resolutions with a view to consulting the convenience of the Opposition. We put them down on a day which suited their convenience. We consulted them as to what day would be most suitable, and we kept them back to the very last moment in order to meet the wishes of hon. Members on the other side of the House. Under these conditions I think we are entitled to some consideration.

§ Lord BALCARRES
May we know what the Resolutions are?

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
The first one is a Resolution which deals with licences for motor cars. It does not prejudge any question at all, but simply enables us to discuss the question. It is absolutely essential that we should have that Resolution. It enables us to discuss the matter when we come to it, as we may do to-morrow or the day after. The other is in regard to licences. That does not raise the question of revenue at all. It is purely a question of deciding whether the revenue shall go to Imperial Funds. The other is a Resolution with regard to levying motor car duties in Ireland. It is necessary to get that before we can extend the motor car licence duties to Ireland. The duty itself will be discussed when we come to the Clause. The next Resolution is to authorise the payments out of the Consolidated Fund towards the development of roads. That is to enable us to pay the sum to a separate account. Unless we get that the whole of this £600,000 will be appropriated for Imperial purposes. Nobody wishes that.

§ Mr. JAMES HOPE
Yes, they do.

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
I have never heard it suggested that the £600,000 raised out of the petrol and motor car duties should be paid into the Imperial Exchequer. I thought it was agreed on all 575 hands that it should be used for the development of roads. There was no division upon that. The next Resolution is in regard to the division of funds raised from the land taxes. It enables us to introduce our Clause dealing with that question. It does not prejudge the question in any way. The passing of these Resolutions will simply enable us to discuss each question afterwards. It does not raise any point of principle; all those points will be discussed when we come to the Clauses. It is a purely formal matter.

§ Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD
I can corroborate the right hon. Gentleman's statement as to what he said last night. He used the words "formal Resolutions." But my hon. Friends and I interpreted the word "formal" as it is interpreted in the ordinary dictionary. I do not think anybody can say that Resolutions of this bind are formal Resolutions. We understood last night that it was necessary to get the three Resolutions in Ways and Means which we have passed through Committee to-day in order to take the Report to-morrow and to get the Clauses. We certainly did not understand that these sax other Resolutions, which are called "formal," but which really open up very large questions, were to be brought on at this hour of the morning. And may I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the reason really for all this hurry? There is plenty of time. I may point out to him that the financial year has still six months to run. May I also point out that, if there is a desire to bring business to a close, it is not as if we were trying to bring the Summer Session to a close at a comparatively early date with a view of meeting again perhaps in two months' time for an Autumn Session? That is not the position. The position is that the Government have got the whole time of the country for two or three months. There is therefore no reason for hurrying these important questions through. Then I would also appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. There has been an understanding that when the Grand Committee on the Development Bill was sitting there should not be late sittings of the House on the Finance Bill. That was an agreement consented to by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. It is really hardly fair to keep hon. Members sitting here so late at night when a very important Bill, or, at any rate, a Bill to which the right hon. Gentleman himself attaches great importance, is coining on at half-past eleven in the morning. I do 576 hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to report Progress now, and renew these Resolutions on another occasion.

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
Before the right hon. Gentleman opposite moves to report Progress I should like to make an appeal to him, and to ask him a question. If he will indicate to me which of these Resolutions contain matter which the Opposition really feel they would like to have discussed, then I will do my best to meet their views. At the same time, the right hon. Gentleman must see himself that some of the Resolutions are purely formal. It is necessary that I should get some of them to-night—the payments out of the Consolidated Fund towards the development of roads, and the division of Land Value Duties with the local authorities.

§ Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD
Take those two.

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
Very well; if I cannot do any better. But there as the Motor Car Resolution relating to Ireland also, which we really must have. If the Opposition will agree to give us these Resolutions without keeping us here later, then I shall be prepared to move to report Progress afterwards.

§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD
One of these Resolutions raises a very important matter of principle which a considerable number of Members on this side wish to discuss. From the list which has been read out it is difficult to know which is the precise Resolution which raises the question. But what I am referring to is the proposal which would deprive municipalities of a share in the increase—

§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE
That Resolution I agree to put off.