HC Deb 28 October 1909 vol 12 cc1171-3
Mr. PATRICK WHITE

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will state how many special pension officers were sent from this country to Ireland to inquire into the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act; what instructions they received; if any officers were sent into England or Scotland for a similar purpose; and whether he will also state their instructions?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. C. Hobhouse)

Six inspectors were sent to Ireland in the early part of the year to inspect the work of the pension officers. The instructions given them were of a general character, namely to satisfy themselves as to whether proper care had been taken by the pension officers in investigating claims, and to give particular attention to the ages of claimants, in view of the statements then current that a large number of persons under the statutory ago had been granted pensions. In England and Scotland the inspection of the pension work has been performed in conjunction with the ordinary work of inspection, and is still going on. The special attention of the inspecting officers has not been drawn to the question of age in these countries. Owing to the fact that the Registration of Births Act was already in force in England and Scotland, there was not the same difficulty in obtaining documentary evidence of age. Such evidence was generally absent in regard to claimants in Ireland.

Mr. PATRICK WHITE

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, having regard to the respective populations of Great Britain and Ireland according to the Census of 1841 and to the number of the survivors of that period who are now in receipt of old age pensions in each country, he can state the approximate demand which will come upon the Exchequer from Great Britain and Ireland, respectively, calculated on each succeeding Census Return down to 1901, assuming the ratio of persons now in receipt of pensions in each country to remain the same as it now is to what the respective populations were in 1841?

Mr. PATRICK WHITE

also asked the same right hon. Gentleman whether he will state the respective populations of Great Britain and Ireland according to the Census of 1841; whether there are at present in Great Britain almost half a million persons in receipt of old age pensions, and what would be the proportionate number of persons to be in receipt of pensions in Ireland according to the respective populations of that period, and to the fact that it is only those persons enumerated in the Census of 1841 who are entitled to the pensions; and whether the proportionate number so calculated for Ireland is higher or lower than the number actually in receipt of pensions in that country at the present time?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

The comparative numbers of persons eligible for old age pensions in Great Britain and Ireland respectively on any given date will clearly be affected by many other causes besides the comparative census population of the two countries 70 years previously, and any conclusions based exclusively on the data suggested in the questions would necessarily be misleading. The hon. Member can, if he wishes to do so, readily make the calculations he suggests from the published Returns. The hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. M. Joyce) asked me a question on this point about a month ago, and I think the facts the hon. Member asks for will be found in the answer I then gave.

Mr. PATRICK WHITE

I asked what the populations of England and Ireland were in 1841. Only people living at that time are entitled to pensions. Having regard to the population of the two countries, what percentage should be granted in Ireland and Great Britain?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

It is perfectly impossible to say.

Mr. PATRICK WHITE

If it is impossible to say, how can you say Ireland is getting more than her fair share?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

I did not say so.

Mr. PATRICK WHITE

It was said by the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues.

Mr. HUGH LAW

If no such allegation were made, why was this special Commission sent over to Ireland?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

No Special Commission was sent over to Ireland.

Mr. PATRICK WHITE

Why were special inspectors sent to Ireland unless to ascertain the number entitled to old age pensions?

Mr. HOBHOUSE

The number of inspectors was not sufficient to do the work.

Mr. SPEAKER

I think this conversation has been carried on long enough.