§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
§ Sir F. BANBURYBefore this Bill is read the third time, I wish to say a few words. The Patronage Secretary to the Treasury knows I have always had certain objections to this measure to which I believe there are four Amendments down, one to recommit and another to read the Bill this day three months. I admit the provisions are of a very important nature. But on the other hand it must be remembered that the Bill creates certain duties with regard to trusteeships and imposes penalties upon trustees in the event of 173 their failing to carry them out. As a. result the conscientious trustee will be put to very considerable trouble in complying with the provisions of the Bill. He will have to keep accounts, to produce vouchers relating to his trust and do all sorts of things which while adding to his labours will not in any way benefit the beneficiaries. One trustee may comply with the provisions of the Bill should it become an Act of Parliament, but another may not be inclined to do so, yet I do not believe there is any power included in the Bill to compel him to do so. The Act will therefore become a dead letter. More than that the Bill is calculated to create not a little friction, and under these circumstances I do not think the Government should press its consideration on the House at this hour of the night. They must remember that this is not a Government Bill at all, but a private Members', and I really do not think the Government in regard to such a Bill as this ought to press the third reading at five minutes to one o'clock. The Prime Minister this afternoon said he proposed to take the Lords Amendments to the Irish Land Bill, and if there was time the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and this particular Bill, and you can hardly call five minutes to one time. Under these circumstances I move "That the Debate be now adjourned."
§ Mr. CARLILEI second the motion for adjournment.
§ Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted; and forty Members being found present——
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Joseph Pease)I hope the hon. Member will not press this Motion. I endeavoured to find out what the extent of the opposition to this small Bill was and found it was of a very limited character.
§ The opportunities for passing the Bill are also limited, and, it having gone through its various stages, I hope the House will give it a third reading.
§ 1.0 A.M.
§ Mr. J. J. MOONEYI cannot agree that this is a very small Bill and I cannot understand how it comes into the category of unimportant, as it is a measure which is going to put a very heavy burden upon trustees. Clause 3 of the Bill indeed states that no increased burdens shall be put upon trustees, but Clauses 1 and 2 do nothing else but put them on. The Bill is one of a technical character and there is no representative of the law present to tell us what it is about, and I do not think it reasonable to ask the House of Commons at one minute to one o'clock to pass a Bill of this kind, which calls upon trustees to account in a detailed form for every penny of their trust and places them under a heavy penalty for not keeping vouchers and accounts. Are we to pass a Bill upsetting the whole of the law relating to trustees without any assistance from the Law Officers for England. The Law Officers for Ireland are here, and apparently have not heard of the Bill or seen it. I cannot understand what the Bill means. It provides that it shall be the duty of trustees to keep accurate accounts, and that they shall keep vouchers for a reasonable time. What is a reasonable time? Some authority might say that three months is a reasonable time, and another might say three years. The right hon. Gentleman told us that he knows nothing about the Bill. Is it right that we should be asked to pass a measure without there being anybody on the Treasury Bench who knows anything about it? If my hon. Friend goes to a division I shall support him.
§ Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 7; Noes, 60
175| Division No. 909.] | AYES. | [1.5 a.m. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Mooney, J. J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Carlile. |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool) | ||
| NOES | ||
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Elibank, Master of |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Falconer, James |
| Beale, W. P. | Clough, William | Ffrench, Peter |
| Bennett, E. N. | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Gulland, John W. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh) | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) |
| Harrington, Timothy | Layland-Barrattt, Sir Francis | Redmond, William Clare |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Hedges, A. Paget | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Roch, Waiter F. (Pembroke) |
| Helme, Norval Watson | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Higham, John Sharp | M'Kean, John | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Maddison, Frederick | Scanian, Thomas |
| Holt, Richard Durning | Marnham, F. J. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel |
| Hyde, Clarendon G. | Massie, J. | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Middlebrook, William | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Jowett, F. W. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Toulmin, George |
| Keating, M. | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Lambert, George | Nolan, Joseph | |
| Lamont, Norman | Nuttall, Harry | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Mr. Fuller. |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal West) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
§ Original Question put and agreed to; Bill read the third time, and passed.
§ Whereupon MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of 20th August, adjourned the House without Question put.
§ Adjourned at Eleven minutes after One a.m., Wednesday. 24th November.