HC Deb 01 November 1909 vol 12 cc1581-7

(1) The Local Government Board may prescribe a set of general provisions (or separate sets of general provisions adapted for areas of any special character) for carrying out the general objects of town planning schemes, and in particular for dealing with the matters set out in the Fourth Schedule to this Act and the general provisions, or set of general provisions appropriate to the area for which a town planning scheme is made, shall take effect as part of every scheme, except so far as provision is made by the scheme as approved by the Board for the variation or exclusion of any of those provisions.

Lords Amendment: Leave out "approved by the Board" ["approved by the Board for the variation or"], and insert "confirmed."

Sub-section (2).—Special provisions shall in addition be inserted in every town planning scheme defining the area to which the scheme is to apply and the authority who are to be responsible for enforcing the observance, or for the execution, of the scheme (in this Part of this Act referred to as the responsible authority), and providing for any matters which may be dealt with by general provisions and otherwise supplementing, excluding, or varying the general provisions, and also for dealing with any special circumstances or contingencies for which adequate provision is not made by the general provisions, and for suspending, so far as necessary for the proper carrying out of the scheme, any statutory enactments, bye-laws, regulations, or other provisions, under whatever authority made, which are in operation in the area included in the scheme.

Lords Amendment: After "apply" ["the scheme is to apply and the authority"] insert "including a schedule showing each parcel of land which it is proposed shall be effected by the making of the scheme, together with a map or plan," and after "and" ["and the authority who are to be responsible"] insert "specifying."

Viscount MORPETH

I cannot myself see how there can be any objection to this Amendment. I admit it is not very far-reaching, but still it seems to be an advantage that the ratepayers should be able to get this necessary information.


The maps and plans go with the scheme. If this Amendment were adopted we should have 60 or 70 maps and plans.


It appears to me that without any provision it would be difficult for the ratepayers to get information. As I understand, the Government are anxious that every one should have an opportunity of learning all about the scheme. This Amendment would make that task easy.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 145; Noes, 29.

Division No. 884.] AYES. [12.5 a.m.
Acland, Francis Dyke Barnes, G. N. Brooke, Stopford
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Beale, W. P. Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Beauchamp, E. Bryce, J. Annan
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Byles, William Pollard
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Boulton, A. C. F. Carr-Gomm, H. W.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Bowerman, C. W. Causton, Rt Hon. Richard Knight
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Brigg, John Cheetham, John Frederick
Barnard, E. B. Bright, J. A. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Cleland, J. W. Horniman, Emsile John Radford, G. H.
Clough, William Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Raphael, Herbert H.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hudson, Walter Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hyde, Clarendon Ridsdale, E. A.
Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Jowett, F. W. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Keating, Matthew Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Rogers, F. E. Newman
Crossley, William J. Laidlaw, Robert Rowlands, J.
Dalziel, Sir James Henry Lamont, Norman Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lehmann, R. C. Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Seely, Colonel
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lewis, John Herbert Snowden, P.
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macdonald, J. M. (Fatkirk Burghs) Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Maclean, Donald Summerbell, T.
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Sutherland, J. E.
Essex, R. W. M'Callum, John M. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Esslemont, George Birnie Maddison, Frederick Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)
Evans, Sir Samuel T. Markham, Arthur Basil Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Everett, R. Lacey Marnham, F. J. Toulmin, George
Ferguson, R. C. Munro Masterman, C. F. G. Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Findlay, Alexander Micklem, Nathaniel Verney, F. W.
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir W. (Ilkeston) Middlebrook, William Vivian, Henry
Fuller, John Michael F. Mond, A. Walsh, Stephen
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Montgomery, H. G. Walters, John Tudor
Glover, Thomas Morrell, Philip Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Morse, L. L. Warner, Thomas Conrtenay T.
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.) Whitbread, Howard
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Nannetti, Joseph P. White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Whitehead, Rowland
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Wiles, Thomas
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilkie, Alexander
Harwood, George Parker, James (Halifax) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Hedges, A. Paget Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Wills, Arthur Walters
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Wilsen, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Henry, Charles S. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Pirie, Duncan V.
Higham, John Sharp Pointer, Joseph
Hobart, Sir Robert Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.
Hedge, John Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Hooper, A. G. Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Courthope, G. Lloyd Newdegate, F. A.
Balcarres, Lord Craik, Sir Henry Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Dickson, Rt. Hon. Charles Scott Stanier, Bovine
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Dumphreys, John M. T. Valentia, Viscount
Bowles, G. Stewart Forster, Henry William Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Cave, George Gretton, John Younger, George
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Harris, Frederick Leverton
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Harrison-Broadley, H. B. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount Morpeth and Mr. Walter Guinness.
Clyde, James Avon Kerry, Earl of
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: Leave out "or for the execution" and after "scheme" ["of the scheme"] insert "and for the execution of any works which under the scheme or this part of this Act are to be executed by a local authority."

Lords Amendment: Leave out, "Provided that where the scheme contains provisions suspending any enactment contained in a public general Act the scheme shall not come into force unless a draft thereof has been laid before each House of Parliament for a period of not less than forty days during the Session of Parliament, and if either of those Houses before the expiration of those forty days presents an Address to His Majesty against the proposed suspension no further proceedings shall be taken on the draft, without prejudice to the making of any new scheme."

Sub-section (3).—Where land included in a town planning scheme is in the area of more than one local authority, the responsible authority may be, as the Local Government Board directs, one of those local authorities, or for certain purposes of the scheme one local authority and for certain purposes another local authority, or a joint body constituted specially for the purpose by the scheme, and all necessary provisions may be made by the scheme for constituting the joint body and giving them the necessary powers and duties.

Provided that, except with the consent of the London County Council, no other local authority shall prepare or be responsible for enforcing the observance or for the execution of a town planning scheme under this part of this Act as respects any land in the county of London.

Lords Amendment: "After "authority" ["more than one local authority"] insert "or is in the area of a local authority by whom the scheme was not prepared."

Lords Amendment: After "duties" ["necessary powers and duties"] insert "Provided that no local authority shall be authorised, except as a constituent of a joint body constituted as aforesaid, to enforce the observance or the execution of a town planning scheme under this Part of this Act in respect of any land within the area of another local authority, unless such other local authority is not prepared to carry out a town planning scheme for the area in question."

Mr. BURNS moved, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The reason we ask the House to disagree with this Amendment is simply this: Any rural council would be able to prevent an authority of an adjoining large town or city from projecting a town planning scheme into the area of the smaller authority. That would be giving small authorities power to prevent public improvements and development to an extent not warranted.

Viscount MORPETH

I think the right hon. Gentleman must be under a misapprehension. This gives no power to small authorities outside to stand in the way of town planning schemes on the part of the larger authorities; it only says that, if the smaller authority declines to undertake a scheme, the larger authority may step in. If the small authority is willing to undertake the work, they may do so. Some of the most difficult points with which Parliament has to deal on private Bills upstairs arise with reference to the boundaries between the different local authorities in the country, and now the right hon. Gentleman proposes to step airily in and decide on his own ipse dixit where and when town planning schemes are to be made, and whether large authorities shall be allowed to go outside their area and acquire land. It is because it is not desirable it should have that power that I urge that this Amendment of the Lords should be agreed with.


In dealing with the outskirts of our towns it should not be possible for the smaller local authorities to arrest or check in any way the planning of the large authorities. If you put in this Amendment you will make it possible in, say, an area around London for fifty small local authorities to produce rival pettifogging town planning schemes which will conflict with more important projects of planning intended to meet the future requirements of the city for, perhaps, fifty years to come. Seeing that full provision, is made for attempting to secure the co-ordination of the local authorities, I protest against the reproduction of proposals which will only have the result of enabling minor local authorities to arrest the object we have in view.


I think the hon. Member really misunderstands this Amendment. All it provides is that if the minor local authority refuses its consent, then nothing can be done unless you constitute a joint authority. It is very important that a central or big local authority should have the general controlling voice, but clearly the minor local authority is interested in the matter. It may grow, it may wish to expand into a big centre, and therefore its interests should be considered. Is it not reasonable that the local authority should have some voice in the matter, that the scheme should be carried out by a joint and not by a single authority? That I understand to be the object of the Amendment. If the minor authority will not do anything, then power is given to the central authority to override it, but, on the contrary, if it wishes to do something, then it is provided that it shall be done by a joint authority on which the minor authority is represented. I think it is a reasonable proposal which will meet any conflict of interest that may arise between the central and the minor local authority.

Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords on the said Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 131; Noes, 29.

Division No. 885.] AYES. [12.20 a.m.
Acland, Francis Dyke Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Fuller, John Michael F. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Parker, James (Halifax)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Glover, Thomas Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Pirie, Duncan V.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Pointer, J.
Barnard, E. B. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Barnes, G. N. Harwood, George Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Beale, W. P. Hedges, A. Paget Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Beauchamp, E. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Radford, G. H.
Boulton, A. C. F. Henry, Charles S. Raphael, Herbert H.
Bowerman, C. W. Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Brooke, Stopford Higham, John Sharp Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Hobart, Sir Robert Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Bryce, J. Annan Hooper, A. G. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Horniman, Emslie John Rogers, F. E. Newman
Byles, William Pollard Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rowlands, J.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hudson, Walter Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Seely, Colonel
Cheetham, John Frederick Jowett, F. W. Summerbell, T.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Keating, M. Sutherland, J. E.
Cleland, J. W. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Clough, William Lamont, Norman Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Lehmann, R. C. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Toulmin, George
Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Lewis, John Herbert Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Verney, F. W.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Maclean, Donald Vivian, Henry
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Walsh, Stephen
Crossley, William M'Callum, John M. Walters, John Tudor
Dalziel, Sir James Henry Maddison, Frederick Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Markham, Arthur Basil Whitbread, S. Howard
Dewar, Arthur Edinburgh, S.) Marnham, F. J. White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Masterman, C. F. G. Whitehead, Rowland
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Micklem, Nathaniel Wilkie, Alexander
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Middlebrook, William Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh) Mond, A. Wills, Arthur Waiters
Essex, R. W. Morrell, Philip Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Evans, Sir S. T. Morse, L. L. Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Everett, R. Lacey Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro Nannetti, Joseph P. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.
Findlay, Alexander Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Newdegate, F. A.
Balcarres, Lord Dumphreys, John Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Forster, Henry William Stanier, Beville
Bignold, Sir Arthur Gretton, John Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Bowles, G. Stewart Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Valentia, Viscount
Cave, George Guinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunds) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Younger, George
Clyde, J. Avon Hay, Hon. Claude George
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Kerry, Earl of TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Robert Cecil and Sir H. Craik.
Courthope, G. Loyd Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Morpeth, Viscount