Captain CRAIGasked leave to bring in a Bill "to make provision for the adequate inspection of monastic and conventual institutions in the United Kingdom."
239 In rising to ask permission to bring in this Bill on a subject which has been before the House on many previous occasions, I wish to express regret that my hon. Friend the Member for North Down is not present to introduce the Bill with which he has been identified in past years. The reason why I have taken, on behalf of my Ulster colleagues this opportunity of bringing forward the Bill is in consequence of what occurred on Friday last, when a Bill passed its second reading in this House for the removal of Roman Catholic disabilities. That Bill received a second reading chiefly, I consider, owing to the action of the Prime Minister in speaking in its favour early in the proceedings. [Cries of "No."] That is my opinion. My colleagues and myself who represent Ulster Constituencies feel that it is necessary that we should reintroduce this Bill on account of the other Bill having passed its second reading on Friday. The effect of that Bill passing the second reading will be undoubtedly to encourage—
§ Mr. WILLIAM REDMONDOn a point of order, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman on this occasion is in order in discussing a Bill which was before this House last Friday?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe way the hon. and gallant Gentleman puts it is that in consequence of a Bill having passed the second reading last Friday, it is necessary to go a step further; and until I have seen the Bill which the hon. Member asks leave to introduce I cannot say whether he is correct or not.
§ Mr. JEREMIAH MacVEAGHOn a further point of order may I ask whether it is in order to introduce a Bill which the hon. Gentleman avers is intended to reverse the decision of the House last Friday?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI did not understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that it was with the view of reversing that decision. I understood him to say that it was in consequence of certain rights proposed to be given by the Bill which passed the second reading last Friday it was necessary to introduce the Bill which he now asks leave to introduce.
Captain CRAIGYour interpretation of my intention is perfectly correct. The hon. Member was wrong in thinking that I was attempting to bring in a Bill to reverse a decision which the House came to 240 so recently as last Friday. During the whole of the discussion last Friday the House was asked why there should be special disabilities upon the Roman Catholics of the country. I ask now why should special privileges be given to monastic and conventual institutions? If the Roman Catholic institutions in the United Kingdom are, as they are always held up to be, above board and above suspicion, why is it that this Bill is so strenuously opposed every time it is introduced, and that every request to inquire into the whole matter, or to allow these institutions to be supervised in the same way as other institutions is refused t My contention is that there is nothing at all arbitrary or unfair about the Bill which I ask leave to introduce. It is to place these institutions on the same level as all Protestant institutions in the country without fear and without favour, and on exactly the same terms. Why is it that they are afraid that we should have the right to exercise the ordinary law of the land in examining into these institutions where they carry on industries which are competing with other industries in the country'? I should like to ask why hon. Members below the Gangway who represent Nationalist constituencies in Ireland should claim for a certain section of the population of this country what hon. Members on the other side of the House have so strenuously objected to on a former occasion'? They claim to have been returned to this House on the question of Chinese labour. I shall draw the parallel. The idea in connection with Chinese indentured labour was that the Chinamen for a term of years went to serve in the South African mines. and that that indenture. signed by themselves, was, to use the words of the President of the Board of Trade, "tantamount to slavery." We know that young children are taken into the monastic institutions throughout the country, and that the term is a life term. There is nothing whatever to show what goes on in these institutions, and the country feels strongly on the subject. Although in England, where Protestants are in such a majority you can afford to pass on one side such a question as this, we who live in Ireland, where Protestants are in a minority and are surrounded by those monastic institutions, where, when a large residence is offered for sale it is frequently purchased and taken advantage of for the purpose of starting a fresh monastic institution— 241 [An HON. MEMBER: "Better than breweries"]—hold it is time that some supervision was exercised over these institutions. I do not think this is a harsh Bill. It is not inquisitorial in its nature. It is simply intended to throw open the doors of those institutions and allow the country to know what is going on behind them. I beg to ask leave to introduce this Bill.
§ Motion made and Question proposed: "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to make provision for the adequate inspection of monastic and conventual institutions in the United Kingdom.' "—[Captain-Craig.]
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNORI respectfully ask the House to do what they have done on previous occasions—that is, to refuse the hon. and gallant Gentlemen leave to introduce the Bill. I must express my profound regret that the Members for Ulster have thought it necessary to bring forward a measure of this kind year after year. They have not chosen the usual time for bringing forward this Bill. The usual time when this Bill is brought forward is towards the beginning or middle of July, and the reason for choosing that particular period for bringing it forward is quite obvious to anybody who understands the conditions of Ireland, especially the conditions in the North of Ireland. In the North of Ireland, of all parts of Ireland, there still survive an amount of religious bigotry and religious strife between the different creeds. We know, I can assure this House, little or nothing of this religious strife or religious bigotry in other parts of the country. If you wish any testimony 'to that fact I would simply have to ask the House to look at these Benches, where they will find representing the most Catholic constituencies in Ireland ten or twelve Members of the Protestant community. Unfortunately, however, largely owing to the misguided policy of this country in previous years, in the plantation of Ulster, you have set side by side in that province people of different races by origin and different in creeds. And according to the policy of religious ascendancy abandoned by the rest of the world, but still adhered to by some of these gentlemen from Ulster, every position of prosperity and ownership of land and of advancement in professions was the result of religious profession on the part of one section and was closed on account of religious opinion to the other. There is only one 'obstacle in Ireland to the complete disap- 242 pearance of these secular struggles of religious feeling, and that is the bigotry of which hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway are the mouthpieces and the creation.
When I hear Members on these benches described by them as agitators living upon the community, and when I hear hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway attacking us as living upon the community, we, whose only object is to restore the soil of Ireland to the people of Ireland, I ask myself what are you to think of men whose chief political stock-in-trade is the perpetuation of those anti-Christian and unChristian divisions of opinion which still disgrace the part of Ireland which they represent? This is no new question in the House. I am old enough to remember Mr. Newdigate and Mr. Warner. Year after year for 30 years one or other of these gentlemen proposed this inspection of convents, and year after year, in a very undemocratic House of Commons, with very little Liberalism and no Radicalism practically, that Bill was always rejected. Is there as strong a case to-day as there was in the days of Mr. Newdigate and Mr. Warner? If ever there was a case it has enormously diminished. The hon. and gallant Gentleman described these convents as requiring inspection because of their industrial competition with other bodies. Up to a few years ago it was quite true to say that industrial conditions and industrial enterprises were carried on in these convents, but they were carried on without the inspection given to these occupations and enterprises in other places. But all that has been changed. The industrial school, which is carried on among Catholics largely, though not altogether, by Members of religious Orders, and which are supported by the money of the State, is subjected in every single one of its proceedings to the inspection of the State.
A few years ago we had a keen and almost angry discussion on the question whether a laundry carried on in these convents should be subject to inspection or not. Some of us thought that the inspection was unnecessary, and some of us thought it was even perilous to the discipline of these institutions, because these laundries are mainly carried out by the unfortunate women rescued from the streets, whom it requires all the good sense, good feeling, and good care of the sisters of these communities to keep from going back to the streets. But after consideration we thought the argument was unanswerable that if these laundries were 243 held to be in competition with laundries outside, and as laundries outside had been subjected, and properly subjected, by Parliament to certain limitations with regard to hours and other conditions, we thought the argument unanswerable that the competition of the convents might be considered unfair, and, therefore, in a Committee of this House, of which I have the honour to be a Member, rules were laid down with the assent of the Home Secretary, and I think most Members of the Committee, that inspection should take place in those convents where laundry institutions existed; and, therefore, so far as there was a case 30 or 40 years ago—the only case I ever thought could be made; the case of industrial competition—so far as there was a case for inspection in that particular case that case has ceased, and ceased by the exceptional legislation to which I have referred. What is the other case? The other case has been put by the hon. and gallant Gentleman in this form: "We do not know what goes on inside these institutions." Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggest, has he the courage to suggest, that there occurs behind the walls of these institutions any immorality or any wrong? I have seen many cases of the kind suggested. I dare-say some Members of this House are old enough to remember the revelations of Maria Monk. I have never known a case yet in my whole experience of unfairness or bad conduct or any other wrong committed within these walls; and I think it is rather audacious, in the presence of 70 or 8i1 Catholics in this House, that they should be charged by the hon. and gallant Gentleman with lending their countenance to these institutions as asylums either of evil living or wrong doing.
§ It is art insult to the religion of Catholics which would not be tolerated to the religion of any other community. What is the crime of these bodies? What is the work in which they are being employed? They are almost exclusively employed in teaching children and nursing the sick. And what are the conditions under which they work? We all belong to a gospel which has preached abnegation and working for others as its highest and noblest principle. In every single one of these institutions every member has denuded herself of a position in society; sometimes of a title; of all her wealth. An hon. Gentleman gives a cheer which my accustomed Parliamentary ear would regard as ironical. Therefore I understand that that ironical cheer was uttered when I spoke of these women as divesting themselves of all their wealth. Does any man contend that any man or woman is less a devout follower of Christ when he gives up all his wealth in order to devote himself to the service of the poor? What is their offence? My opinion is that these women of these bodies give an example to the whole world by their abnegation; and an example of this kind, where there is so much selfishness as there is to-day, I do not think is an example to be either condemned or derided. As a matter of fact, these bodies are the only bodies of real Christian communists and socialists in the world, because I think in what they are doing they are giving a noble example to the world, and not doing something to be denounced. I call upon this House not to allow itself to be dragged at the tail of the bigoted Orange party.
§ Question put: "That leave be given to introduce the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 175.
245| Division No. 112.] | AYES. | [4.14 p.m. |
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Clough, William | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Hedges, A. Paget |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Crossley, William J. | Hooper, A. G. |
| Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hillngworth, Percy H. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Du Cros, Arthur | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Lemont, Norman |
| Black, Arthur W. | Everett, R. Lacey | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Ferens, T. R. | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Brace, William | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Fletcher, J. S. | Lansdale, John Brownlee |
| Branch, James | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Gordon, J. | M'Arthur, Charles |
| Brodie, H. C. | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | M'Calmont, Colonel James |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Hamilton, Marquess of | Marnham, F. J. |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Harvey. W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Massie, J. |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Robinson, S. | Whitbread, S. Howard |
| Morse, L. L. | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Nicholls, George | Spicer, Sir Albert | White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) | Stanger, H. Y. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Stanier, Beville | Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Pollard, Dr. G. H. | Steadman, W. C. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Radford, G. H. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Randies, Sir John Scurrah | Tuke, Sir John Batty | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Valentia, Viscount | |
| Ridsdale, E. A. | Verney, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | Craig and Mr. Moore. |
| NOES | ||
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) | Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Grant, Corrie | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) | Pointer, J. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Hall, Frederick | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Barnes, G. N. | Halpin, J. | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) |
| Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Reddy, M. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hayden, John Patrick | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Boland, John | Healy, Maurice (Cork) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Rees, J. D. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hogan, Michael | Renton, Leslie |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Holt, Richard Durning | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.D.) |
| Brunner, Rt. Hon Sir T. J. (Cheshire) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hudson, Walter | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hunt, Rowland | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Jenkins, J. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight | Kavanagh, Walter M. | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) |
| Chance, Frederick William | Kettle, Thomas Michael | Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cleland, J. W. | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Cooper, G. J. | Lupton, Arnold | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Smeaten, Donald Mackenzie |
| Crean, Eugene | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Crooks, William | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Snowden, P. |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Macpherson, J. T. | Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Curran, Peter Francis | MacVeagh, Jremiah (Down, S.) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) | Summerbell, T. |
| Dalziel, Sir James Henry | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Delany, William | Maddison, Frederick | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) |
| Dillon, John | Masterman, C. F. G. | Tomkinson, James |
| Doughty, Sir George | Meagher, Michael | Walsh, Stephen |
| Duckworth, Sir James | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Walton, Joseph |
| Duffy, William J. | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wardle, George J. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Mooney, J. J. | Waring, Walter |
| Edwards, Eroch (Hanley) | Muldoon, John | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ellbank, Master of | Murphy, John (Kerry, East) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Murphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S.) | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Evans, Sir S. T. | Myer, Horatio | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Falconer, J. | Nolan, Joseph | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Winfrey R. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Winterton, Earl |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | O'Doherty, Philip | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Fullerton, Hugh | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Young, Samuel |
| Gardner, Ernest | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | |
| Ginnell, L. | O'Dowd, John | |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | O'Grady, J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain: |
| Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
| Glover, Thomas | O'Malley, William |